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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: muchadoaboutnothing on Tue, 07 December 2010, 23:35:10
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Link here (http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/realforce-103ub-55g-black/4505-3134_7-34426331.html?part=cnet&subj=Realforce+103UB+55g+%28black%29#reviewPage1).
Overall consensus was that was well built good and was quiet unlike Cherry MX boards, but was grossly overpriced with a dearth of features.
Also, it seems like CNET has been reviewing a lot of our picks recently. Wonder if they'll review the Leopold in the spring.
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The bottom line: The Topre Realforce 103UB 55g keyboard is a simple mechanical keyboard with unique, quiet switches underneath the keys that minimize the familiar clacking sound of other mechanical keyboards. Passionate, well-off typists interested in accommodating their neighbors might have some interest in this expensive input device, but with few other standout features, we can't recommend it to other mechanical-keyboard fans due to its high price.
Someone obviously has no idea what Topre switches even are.
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Oh CNET, trying too hard to cover too much stuff, and thus failing at all of it. It's too bad that people will read that review.
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The keycap shapes vary by the rows on the board to accommodate the ideal typing angle for your hands. You can't use generic keycap replacements as a result, but Topre includes a key puller, alternate colors for the W, A, S, and D keys, a red escape key, and additional Caps Lock and Ctrl keys for programmers who want to swap the two.
Are all of these included with the 103UB or did CNET add it to their cart and forget about it?
Oh CNET, trying too hard to cover too much stuff, and thus failing at all of it. It's too bad that people will read that review.
CNET gets retweeted and reposted a ton. It's a shame that the review was less than glowing.
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Haha, I posted this elsewhere and the trolling has already started.
(http://i.min.us/ibalGG.png)
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Needs more usb ports
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CNET also mentioned the Das Keyboard as having "buckling springs", so take their statements with a grain of salt.
http://www.cnet.com/8301-31361_1-20009919-254.html (http://www.cnet.com/8301-31361_1-20009919-254.html)
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CNET also mentioned the Das Keyboard as having "buckling springs", so take their statements with a grain of salt.
http://www.cnet.com/8301-31361_1-20009919-254.html (http://www.cnet.com/8301-31361_1-20009919-254.html)
Well, to be fair, the guy that did the DAS & Topre reviews did not appear in the video you linked to and probably had no input in it.
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they failed to mention the NKRO for the 55g. what a bunch of fail monkeys
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they failed to mention the NKRO for the 55g. what a bunch of fail monkeys
But isn't the realforce usb ???
Also it's NKRO doesn't work via USB to PS2 adapter :x
So the NKRO would be limited to 6KRO via usb :X
Which is pretty decent for most things, but for such an expensive keyboard shouldn't they have made a better controller ?
Correct me if i am wrong :juggle:
Anyway i don't agree with the ratings. Some features are more important than others. So for example just because the DAS has USB and the realforce doesn't; does not necessarily means it's better. The realforce typing experience and keycaps are way better. The only downside i see is the controller that doesn't do USB to PS2 nKRO :X
Also pricing as in bang for your bucks.
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Cnet is the grammy awards of review websites
I just google [keyboard name] review, then check blogs etc.
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But isn't the realforce usb ???
Also it's NKRO doesn't work via USB to PS2 adapter :x
So the NKRO would be limited to 6KRO via usb :X
Correct me if i am wrong :juggle:
If I remember it's Nestled Hierarchy PCB with full NKRO redundancy spec limited by USB 6+4 or full NKRO in PS/2 variants. In other words since the topre doesn't have the diode sector like on the cherry it incorporates it over the PCB.
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omgs
asian reviewer = phail
shame his ancestors he did.
http://www.cnet.com/profile/justin.yu/ (http://www.cnet.com/profile/justin.yu/)
assistant editor too
there have a been a lot of horrible tech reviews lately, i've come to put scrutiny on the reviewer rather than the publication in which they are reviewed from.
220 reviews
also gives the 9000k a 4star
http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/rosewill-rk-9000-usb/4505-3134_7-34197511.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody (http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/rosewill-rk-9000-usb/4505-3134_7-34197511.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody)
i've never had a topre but i don't think i could ever buy anything that over priced and to me just seems like a thicker membrane board. (plus i'd have to mod it 10 ways to heaven, most would call it blasphemy)
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I would definitely pick up a used Realforce, then. You are missing out. A "thicker membrane" 'board would be a gross misstatement. Modding it would be on you, though. Welly and Ripster modded theirs (in different ways).
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"Das has buckling springs..." "...I'm a cone-suer of keyboards" lol
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Oh lord, there's a user review now (http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/realforce-103ub-55g-black/4864-3134_7-34426331.html?messageID=10096600).
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It looks really plain, with an ugly logo and no special features, screens, gloss, or even USB ports (which ship in dime a dozen keyboards!) The lettering was black on black keys, but the manufacturer says it's intentional and the retailer wouldn't allow me to return it.
This is priceless.
EDIT: You know what, I think someone's trolling me now that I think about it. Lol.
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Wish I knew where he was, so I could pick up the board for half price.
Also, it's quite clear that it's not "black on black", but rather dark grey on black. If he'd even bothered to look at it, he'd have known this.
Stupid people.
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EDIT: You know what, I think someone's trolling me now that I think about it. Lol.
Distinctly possible, but there are a LOT of stupid people out there.
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Why would someone doesn't know anything about mechanical keyboards spend the equivalent of 12 membrane keyboards to buy a Topre? Because random anonymous internet people said it was the best?
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Worst. Reviews. Ever.
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Remember, key feel is subjective. For the most part, the members here agree that mechanical switches (although, I don't really think that Topres are all that mechanical) are better than rubber dome from a typing experience standpoint. There really aren't any true rubber dome lovers here, but I think that's mainly how the site is biased. I don't fault the writer for his opinion. What I don't like about it is that the writer is not a keyboard aficionado, so he doesn't have the perspective I would like on a review of a keyboard I have not personally tried. I trust reviews from members here on quality keyboards, because the members here have experience and perspective. It's the same reason I go to Audioholics for A/V reviews; I wouldn't really trust you guys for an A/V review. The problem, as several of you have mentioned, is that people who won't know any better are going to read the review and take it for gospel.
TL;DR - Don't attack the reviewer, attack C|Net. The reviewer's opinion is valid, I just don't think it's the best reviewer for the job.
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EDIT: You know what, I think someone's trolling me now that I think about it. Lol.
Yea I think this gave it away:
I'm now pawning the keyboard off for half price on Craigslist without success.
Someone would surely grab one instantly if an almost unused Topre appeared in Graigslist.
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Someone would surely grab one instantly if an almost unused Topre appeared in Graigslist.
Well, I noticed the review was posted today, but when I found it I immediately posted it here. There's no way to tell at what time it was posted and if anyone saw it before that, snatching it.
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reviewer has actually reviewed a few cherry keys and given them 4/5 so maybe topres really are just expensive membranes to him. Have to give him credit for the cherry reviews.
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Membranes are membranes, springs are springs. But a Topre is a Topre!! Geesh,these guys are so captain.
(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/7b/Obvioustroll.jpg)
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Compared to other electronic/computer components, I would argue an expensive keyboard of good quality is a better "value" than most other high end electronic/computer components.
This may be me "rationalizing" but bare with me. It is obvious the law of diminishing returns when it comes to computer components. You can spend significantly more for a component that does the same job as a cheaper part, but it should perform that job slightly better than the cheaper part. For example you can buy a new i7 980x CPU for ~$1000 retail. You can also buy a i7 960 for ~$550 retail. Now, will the 980x outperform the 960? Yes if not in all, most performance categories the 980x will win. Will it load/render everything twice as fast? Hardly... In most day to day operations I would argue the average user would have no idea they were running different CPU's. Now a year later comes around... The 980x, while im sure will still be considered a very nice processor (especially for OC'ers) will be considered obsolite technology.
Lets attemept to make the same comparison between the Realforce and say... a Logitech G15 (cNET editors choice award winner). Sure the Realforce costs about twice as much, but I feel there is much less of a diminishment on the return to investment. A G15 will last a heavy user how long? About 12-18 months? Maybe? All while having to live with inferior feel, build quality, tactile feedback etc. The user who spend the extra money is still using his Realfoce lets say 24-36 months (low end of the spectrum. you should get more life from a realforce than this)? This means that the user has actually gotten twice the usability out of his investment that cost twice as much. As far as I can tell the technology on keyboards isn't going to drastically change in the timeframes we are talking about here so you can spend that extra money with confidence knowing your product will not go obsolete before it dies.
I think it is shallow minded to bash a product for is price when you dont fully consider the longevity/build quality of the product.
Then again maybe they gave it an average rating because it doesnt offer backlighting, 999 macrokeys, sd card reader, thumb scanner, and a detachable swiss army knife for any other gimmick you may need included. Bottom line the review was too subjective for my taste coming from a site like cNET that everyone and their mom visits.
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The review is fine if you believe that "value" was factored into the rating, for instance the fastest CPU (or more readily fastest SSD) on a consumer level cost 1000$ they never get 5 stars because the "value" just isn't there.
If we think about it in a non regular way, why is the black widow garnering so much attention? Because it is not only incorporating mech switches but also including "basic" features that 99% of the home desktop population is used to.
Media keys, wow so 99.
what does it also include for the gaming community?
macro keys wow gaming keyboard=macro keys.
cool? yup
braided cord.
why does a mech keyboard have to be so minimalistic? it's like going backwards.
i'm modding my new keyboard with macro keys and backlighting and media keys and a usb hub, what other mech board has these features? why do we have to "give up" so much basic stuff to get mech keys?
that's why even a 2kro blackwidow will get high ratings.
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Because we use our keyboards to work?
I use my HHKB and my Unicomp daily, and I couldn't ask for better keyboards for writing code. Identical layout for keys they have in common, both outstanding switches, etc.
Why do I need backlighting? I don't look at my keyboard.
Why do I need a USB hub? I have a workstation with 10 USB ports.
Why do I need media keys for a work keyboard? Even if I do, just use AHK.
And macro keys? What for? My editor has macro support...I don't need that in my keyboard.
Who needs cool? I need comfortable, reliable, but not cool.
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That's kind of what I was thinking...the user review reads as if the reviewer doesn't use (or hardly uses) their keyboard for typing. I don't think I would even buy that 55g from them at half-price as they seem so dumb lord knows what they may have done to that keyboard. Probably drilled makeshift usb ports into it.
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Different strokes for different folks I guess. I have never owned a mech keyboard before last week but now I am hooked. If can't appreciate the Topre switch $300 would seem like a mondo waste of money vs a $10 stock Dell keyboard. I also think they should have attempted to take the prespective of someone who would be in the market for a $200+ keyboard. This is obviously not the keyboard for everyone, but to the market they are targeting; they do a damn good job.
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why does a mech keyboard have to be so minimalistic? it's like going backwards.
Heh it's like saying, I love the HHKB but what sucks about it is it missing so many keys, and it's so small!!
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A firmware update on the 87U is possible by flipping DIP switch 4. This conceivably means you could load a custom firmware that WOULD allow full NKRO over USB.
But has anyone done it ? Programmed and released this custom firmware that makes the realforce NKRO work via usb for public usage ?
If not it may as well be considered 6KRO as far as newbies who can't program are concerned :x even if technically it's able to do NKRO with some programming involved.
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Do we have to do all NKRO discussions again? :|
My friend played o2jam with his macbook pro, and he's still better than me even if I play with PS/2. So the only reason we need NKRO, is now gone.
Tasklist: re-educate the newbies that they wouldn't need PS/2 and NKRO sooner in the future.
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Regarding to the topic, the user review is funny. The original cnet reviewer is even funnier.
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This guy obviously needs the built-in USB hub for his USB coffee mug warmer
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The guy used the same word three times in two short paragraphs and with a someone what questionable definition.
Traditional scissor switches? Traditional laser printing?
Sure, something that has only been going on for a few years can be called a tradition, but laser printing and scissor switches are way too young to be traditional, IHMO. They're the most current wider spread dominating trend, not a tradition. Unfortunately, cheap pad printed rubber domes have been an unfortunate tradition.
It sounds like the dude is a clicky cherry blue fan and his bias is all over that review. Although, I'm not a clicky cherry blue fan and that wouldn't bias me, on a review of them. Most anyone could do a better review, except that amusing guy claiming to have sold one half price.
Guy clearly doesn't do his homework, better known as research. Where was the editor?
I think the only thing he really gets right is comparing that it is more like pushing on pillow, than the bouncy cherry feel.
I don't know where the clunky came from, maybe he just can't handle 55g? Topres are smooth, and smooth isn't clunky. Next to the review done by a user who gave the Topre a half star and ranted about his buyers remorese, this guy does look professional, lol.
Definite review fail. I don't think Topre deserves 5 stars. The price does take them out of the availability range for the masses. Features are a matter of priority and the ability of the person using the product. Although based on the fact the masses scream, even when they have to hit a modifier key to work a media key, you know where you're headed if your review is in that court.
Yea, I use my Topre at work. I prefer tenkeyless brown cherries at home. I think his low blow was the comparison to the wireless ergo logicrap.
There's no tone on the net, so I'm just gonna add, that my tone is that of someone stifling a yawn. I probably just should have typed journalistic fail, then not posted, because it isn't worth bumping to let other people [strike]get trolled[/strike] read this thread.
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a high premium 300$ keyboard that doesn't come with many "standard" features in what some would deem the high premium market (over 50$) deserves a low ranking.
Lets just say you got a high tech car, for arguments sake a toyota prius(whatever it's hybrid new hippie car).
but it doesn't have power windows, you gotta crank that window up.
it still uses an analogue odometer no big digital numbers.
for some reason it has no cigarette lighter, so you can't power up a gps
it only has a fm/am radio
but yet it's supposed to be the pinnacle of high technology?
just like how there's a constant argument about razer being too cheap to afford 2$ in diodes, you think it'd be too much to put in just 1 usb hub to the keyboard? maybe ppl would like to connect their mice this way (i know it goes against my hatred of apple, but they did this like in 99) or braid the cord and give it some class?
backlight probably goes against the whole otaku theme, but simple fn+f1-f12 for media keys should be a no brainer in keyboard logic to make right? at some point someone is going to listen to their music on a pc working or home.
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There are the jack of all trade luxury items (like the G15), then there are the quality masters of the essence of essential function luxury items like the Topre.
In my ideal world, the master of the basics would be the standard or average of what was available, but that just isn't reality.
It is like comparing a balisong made by a master that is just a one sided blade with simple clean lines, but perfect balance, blade and the common luxury multitool knife.
Adding USBs to keyboards (especially since they are USBs that can't do everything a USB port does standardly), is not a standard item and is analogous to sticking something on the outside of the car that takes away from aerodynamics and gas mileage gained without it. In the case of keys, it is like putting something on or in the car which makes it not park where compacts do - which a lot of luxury cars are wider, so they offer occupants more space.
I know a variety of people that don't use their media keys, even though they have them. Kinda like people with numberpads that don't use them. This reminds me, I should really Auto-Hot-key mute, it is the only button I ever actually use on my laptop and mousing through the GUI is too slow for that.
Personally macros, extra functions I would be better handled by something the equivallent of razer's software, but done at the OS level.
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a high premium 300$ keyboard that doesn't come with many "standard" features in what some would deem the high premium market (over 50$) deserves a low ranking.
Lets just say you got a high tech car, for arguments sake a toyota prius(whatever it's hybrid new hippie car).
but it doesn't have power windows, you gotta crank that window up.
it still uses an analogue odometer no big digital numbers.
for some reason it has no cigarette lighter, so you can't power up a gps
it only has a fm/am radio
but yet it's supposed to be the pinnacle of high technology?
just like how there's a constant argument about razer being too cheap to afford 2$ in diodes, you think it'd be too much to put in just 1 usb hub to the keyboard? maybe ppl would like to connect their mice this way (i know it goes against my hatred of apple, but they did this like in 99) or braid the cord and give it some class?
backlight probably goes against the whole otaku theme, but simple fn+f1-f12 for media keys should be a no brainer in keyboard logic to make right? at some point someone is going to listen to their music on a pc working or home.
You clearly haven't seen the movie "Bad Boys." In it, the character played by Martin Lawrence complains that his partner's (played by Will Smith) car, a Porsche, doesn't have cup holders.
There are lots of products out there that skimp out on "consumer" features, while offering refinement in other areas. That's their selling point, and thus, the reason for their high prices; not the number of features, but quality and refinement in very specific areas. Exotic sports cars don't have much storage space. High-end DSLR cameras don't offer "scene" modes. Etc.
That said, people need to actually want those aspects in order to pay for them. And that's the issue with the Topres. Yea, they offer superb build quality in both construction and materials, a unique switch mechanism, but are people willing to pay for those things? Apparently, not many.
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fuzzybaffy you summed up what I was trying to say much better.
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@Kairxa
Sorry i just had to correct the misconception people may have mistakenly thought the realforce would do NKRO by default; when actually at this point nobody has got it to do that; unless like Ripster pointed out they do some drastic modding which as far as i know nobody has done (exception being a HHKB; but that isn't a realforce ain't it)
Anyway to sum it up; the ratings are reflecting features that are of less importance and as a result unjustly made the Topre look way worse than a DAS; when from what i have seen many in GH feel the realforce is a superior typist keyboard.
So which is more important ? The typing feel or a usb socket for your usb coffee mug as D-EJ915 so kindly pointed out.
The way i see it the rating should be for the most basic and important features of what makes a keyboard first and foremost.
Primary ratings
1. Key print type: silk screened; laser etched; dye sublimated; double shots ?
2. key tech: rubberdome; mechanical switch; topre ?
3. build quality: plastic used; durability of casing, keycaps, controller,NKRO tests; ghosting etc etc....
4. price: Are you getting your bang for buck when considering all the pointers mentioned so far when considering the primary ratings; followed by secondary ratings as an afterthought ? For me personally; keyboards such as Ducky/Filco/Leopold meet the basic requirements i need. A Topre is something more refined for typing. So for myself i'd vote for the former as being more bang for buck than say a Topre; but thats usually up to everyone to decide for themselves.
Secondary ratings
1. lighting = None; or like G15 standard lighting; or better quality lighting like say Deck Legend and Razer Black widow with leds for each individual keys ??
2. macros = e.g. like Razer etc
3. usb = usb ports for your coffee mug warmers etc
etc etc...
4. braided cords
So the main ratings is what should determine if the keyboard is good or not :X secondary ratings is other things to consider but is of less importance as far as the function of a keyboard is concerned.
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cnet always has the dumbest, least informative crap, who cares what they say. *rolls eyes*
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whats the big deal with USB ports on keyboards?
people really care about that crap? All desktops have a couple of USB ports on the front of the machine nowdays anyway.
Anyway the keyboard is made in Japan , Japanese made stuff is always more expensive than Taiwan/China.
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the user review is funnier...chance for a cheaper Realforce!
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Moogle - why do you feel full nkro is so important? Have you ever played an FPS game that required more than 3 or 4 keys held down at the same time? IMO, the 6kro provided by a Topre board is perfect for gaming. I've gamed with my Realforce and it's like butter.
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Moogle - why do you feel full nkro is so important? Have you ever played an FPS game that required more than 3 or 4 keys held down at the same time? IMO, the 6kro provided by a Topre board is perfect for gaming. I've gamed with my Realforce and it's like butter.
Agreed. I see no real benefit in full NKRO compared to 6KRO. There's no real situation where I'd want to press more than 6 keys at the same time so I just connect my boards via USB to get 6KRO.
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Moogle - why do you feel full nkro is so important? Have you ever played an FPS game that required more than 3 or 4 keys held down at the same time? IMO, the 6kro provided by a Topre board is perfect for gaming. I've gamed with my Realforce and it's like butter.
Well i don't need NKRO. But i could use 7KRO for stuff like O2JAM.
But clearly that black widow (to me anyway) 2kro is damn disappointing for a supposed high end keyboard.
Yes you are right that in 99% of situations 6KRO usb is more then enough. But stuff like O2jam etc; 7KRO at least is needed :/ I've seen for myself when playing the game how frustrating it is when you hit all keys but 1 doesn't register. If this were a competition yes it will matter as insignificant as it may sound to others who don't play such games.
I don't question why at that price it doesn't have led lighting like the deck legend; but i don't see why they skimped out on NKRO via usb to ps2 :/ when cheaper ones like filco/leopold/ducky can. that should be a fair enough question especially at that price point. So hopefully i don't get shot down for point that out :/
Anyway topres are good; i only question their bang for buck :/
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Just use your Ducky for O2jam and fuggedaboutit.
Did you ever get your Ducky btw?
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Just use your Ducky for O2jam and fuggedaboutit.
My thoughts exactly :D
The only reason i whinge about the Topre; is because i hope they fix that part about what i dislike then maybe the next time i can get one :D no offense.
Did you ever get your Ducky btw?
Nah.
I'm part of the MO3 from vrzone forum. They just received the black on black dk-9008 for it; but the pbt lasered version which i ordered will come on the 21st December in SINGAPORE.
AND THEN i got to wait another week for it to arrive in Malaysia. Our customs are horrible. They say it takes 3 days to get through customs but in my experience it takes a week :X
I'm starting to doubt i will get my keyboard before Christmas.
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I'm starting to doubt i will get my keyboard before Christmas.
That stinks man...hope you do!
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Thx.
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It seems a war is starting to brew in the CNET comments on the user review...
I'm starting to doubt i will get my keyboard before Christmas.
Sorry Moogle, that sucks :|
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What can i say. I'm a prolific forumer :X it's a habit.
Sorry Moogle, that sucks :|
No worries. the Christmas turkey will cheer me up. If all goes well; i will receive a Kindle 3 for Christmas to make up for it /pray
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Bummer.
Moogle, you will be the first Geekhacker to hit 500 posts without having ther first Mechanical Keyboard.
Victheslik might have him beat to that distinction. It was awhile before he got an HHKB. Back then, though, there wasn't much that was easy to buy.
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I replied to that loser with my own follow-up and review... :D
Edit: Calling all Realforce fans! Please sign up on CNet and do the same! If you love Realforce you know that this guy's user review is pure trollage. Let's all submit our own real enthusiast reviews and show everyone how good these keyboards really are!
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whats the big deal with USB ports on keyboards?
people really care about that crap? All desktops have a couple of USB ports on the front of the machine nowdays anyway.
The keyboard is the closest thing to most users, and so is the logical place to plug in all sorts of removable storage, sync media players or phones, and other sorts of sporadic temporary connections. My keyboard doesn't have USB ports, but my monitor does and it's very handy.
If the computer is tucked away somewhere and hard to route wires to, it's simpler to plug the mouse (and maybe a game controller) into the keyboard and then run a single cable from the keyboard to the computer.
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Nice reviews from the Realforce users.
Also, he replied to you keyboardlover.
EDIT: It's appearing on some refreshes and not others so I screenshotted it.
(http://i.min.us/idraBI.png)
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The keyboard is the closest thing to most users, and so is the logical place to plug in all sorts of removable storage, sync media players or phones, and other sorts of sporadic temporary connections. My keyboard doesn't have USB ports, but my monitor does and it's very handy.
If the computer is tucked away somewhere and hard to route wires to, it's simpler to plug the mouse (and maybe a game controller) into the keyboard and then run a single cable from the keyboard to the computer.
Except for one small problem that everyone overlooks. Many common flash drives can't get enough power from keyboard hubs. Nor can portable hard drives, iPhones, iPods, Zunes, etc.
Your monitor's USB hub is powered. Keyboard hubs are not. If you need one, they are inexpensive, and really quite small. Often they even come with the necessary items to mount them to the back of your monitor.
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O well, I guess the guy just doesn't like the keyboard. Too bad for him.
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Nice reviews from the Realforce users.
Also, he replied to you keyboardlover.
Lol - check out my reply to him:
@oxide_52 - the problems you experienced with this keyboard are known in the computer world as "PEBKAC" problems - "Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair".
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Ok i'll just use examples from the same industry to illustrate evolution and included features.
You won't a computer case that is beige because we've evolved passed that ugly color.
for computer cases that 100$ up
you'll find that they all have front/top access ports
have some form of cable management /routing
the industry has adopted a bottom mounted psu scheme
has painted the inside some color (or left aluminum)
has at least 4 places to place 1 fan if not multiple fans and includes as many.
some 150$ cases:
definently has grommet holes for watercooling in the back (nasty/ugly but whatever)
have some kind of cage system for hard drives
have included some type of sound/vibration dampening for the hard drives, rubber grommet mounts/ bungie cords
have a special "hardware tray"
dust covers
removeable main board
big cutout for easy cpu/heatsink installation.
the features i listed are "extras" that case companies will include because they have become so ubiquitous that customers have come to find them as "standard".
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Ok i'll just use examples from the same industry to illustrate evolution and included features.
You won't a computer case that is beige because we've evolved passed that ugly color.
for computer cases that 100$ up
you'll find that they all have front/top access ports
have some form of cable management /routing
the industry has adopted a bottom mounted psu scheme
has painted the inside some color (or left aluminum)
has at least 4 places to place 1 fan if not multiple fans and includes as many.
some 150$ cases:
definently has grommet holes for watercooling in the back (nasty/ugly but whatever)
have some kind of cage system for hard drives
have included some type of sound/vibration dampening for the hard drives, rubber grommet mounts/ bungie cords
have a special "hardware tray"
dust covers
removeable main board
big cutout for easy cpu/heatsink installation.
the features i listed are "extras" that case companies will include because they have become so ubiquitous that customers have come to find them as "standard".
Your examples are fine, but you kind of missed my point. Yes, many companies will offer more features as "standard" as time goes on, but there are ALSO, other companies that, rather than offering smaller, extra features, offer refinement and improved quality in the features they already have, at a higher price point. It's up to the consumer to decide whether or not they want to pay for the extra features.
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I'm sure he immediately ignored anything you where saying as soon as he read "idiot" and switched to internet argument mode. Which is OK if you're just looking to argue, but it's not going to persuade him to give the Realforce a second shot.
The way i see it the rating should be for the most basic and important features of what makes a keyboard first and foremost.
Primary ratings
1. Key print type: silk screened; laser etched; dye sublimated; double shots ?
2. key tech: rubberdome; mechanical switch; topre ?
3. build quality: plastic used; durability of casing, keycaps, controller,NKRO tests; ghosting etc etc....
4. price: Are you getting your bang for buck when considering all the pointers mentioned so far when considering the primary ratings; followed by secondary ratings as an afterthought ? For me personally; keyboards such as Ducky/Filco/Leopold meet the basic requirements i need. A Topre is something more refined for typing. So for myself i'd vote for the former as being more bang for buck than say a Topre; but thats usually up to everyone to decide for themselves.
Secondary ratings
1. lighting = None; or like G15 standard lighting; or better quality lighting like say Deck Legend and Razer Black widow with leds for each individual keys ??
2. macros = e.g. like Razer etc
3. usb = usb ports for your coffee mug warmers etc
etc etc...
4. braided cords
So the main ratings is what should determine if the keyboard is good or not :X secondary ratings is other things to consider but is of less importance as far as the function of a keyboard is concerned.
I agree completely. The problem is most people outside of Geek Hack don't have any idea what those primary features are. Before finding this site, all I could see was that some keyboards where cheaper then others or that they would sometimes drop a key. I did not know what mechanical switches where, how key rollover worked, how key legends where created, what plastics keycaps where made of, or anything like that. If it had 104 keys on it, it was a keyboard. :happy: If it had more then 104 keys, lights, an LCD, USB ports, etc it was it was a gimmicky board and was ignored. I'm glad most mech boards don't have those features, and focus on build quality.
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This is exactly why I don't evangelize keyboards and try to convert them. It's like arguing which one is better Popeye's, KFC, or Church's. It's all about peoples' opinions and what they like. Really, there is nothing functionally better between keyboards of different switch types, including rubber domes. They all send a signal to the PC, it's all about how you want your finger to feel from the beginning to the end of the stroke and the sound you want to hear while it happens. If you don't really care how it feels, then what's left? Features. If you don't really care about horsepower, then it's all about the cup holders, seat material, a/c, whatever. Don't blame the review for their opinions, and for ****'s sake, stop feeding the trolls.
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My problem is that the review was stupid, completely based on opinion and not objective in any way. It's totally misleading. I'm not looking to evangelize - just to point out what this other person did not and hopefully help anyone interested to make a more informed decision.
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I think this whole problem is caused by two very different kind of consumers coming together to form their opinions about a premium product.
There are two kinds of quality/value, and that's where the problem lies. There's horizontal/breadth value, which involves things that are order qualifiers, but not order winners. Vertical/depth quality deals with order winners and how much development has gone into those features.
Qualifiers are features that get you to consider an item, but not necessarily choose that item over a competitor. For example, an order qualifier for a particular car is that it can take you across town on a tank of gas and starts up in normal winter temperatures. Great, you can consider this car. But if the manufacturer made a new car where the gas tank is twice as large and figured out a way to have the car start up in extreme-cold weather, it wouldn't really do any more to convince you to buy that new car over first one that does the what you need (assuming you live near gas stations and not in the Arctic) already.
Winners are features that will justify purchasing one option over another—hence, it "wins" the order. In the car example, this might look like more comfortable seating or better mileage, because these contribute directly to your driving experience and overall value in a linear way. If fuel efficiency matters to you, a car with better mileage will cause you to pick that one over one with average mileage. If you care about comfort, a car with an extremely comfy seat will beat out a car with just comfy seats. In this case, further improvement in winners has bearing on persuading consumers to choose the product.
Now back to the boards. One way to look at it is that some consumers are looking for horizontal value—they want tons and tons of features that don't add to the product's main utility but add to their idea of total value. This would be all the fluffy features, like having backlighting when you type in a well-lit room, or USB ports for your coffee mug, or dedicated extra keys for every conceivable action for every app you use. None of these things really improve the typing experience, but their convenience sort of appeals to some/most consumers.
Then there are us badass people here on Geekhack, who (mostly) buy keyboards because we plan on... you know, using them to type on. We would pay a lot of attention to the vertical dimension of value—we want our boards to feel comfortable while we type, to last longer than our housepets, to be very loud (or quiet), and to be infinitely reliable. Point is, we have very specific needs with regards to the core functionality of our boards, things most people don't even bother to notice, much less think and talk about. I like to say, we care about what makes a keyboard a keyboard.
Anyway, that's why people like that reviewer and the user gave a Topre board such a crappy rating. They are looking for all the wrong features/indicators of quality, according to our standards. They are breadth-consumers, and not depth-consumers. In terms of order winners and qualifiers, they have their priorities reversed.
To breadth-consumers, order qualifiers are winners, if you can cram in enough of them. This is probably mostly because of ignorance—if there are no other dimensions by which we measure quality, then the only way to add value is to cram in more qualifiers. They actually look at quantity of qualifiers as an order winner since they may be unaware of anything else.
To Geekhackers, the switches in themselves are the winning aspect of the board—the feel is second to none, they are reliable, etc... (the rest of the usually cited reasons why HHKB and Realforce are so great). We look at core functionality—how delicious is the typing experience on the board?—to base our purchase decisions on. This is why some of us don't care about frilly things like media keys or backlighting—at least not until we are talking about boards that are otherwise identical in terms of switches, build quality, etc... It's not that USB ports and volume controls don't matter at all—it's just that they (may) only begin to matter after you sort out the important things first, like what switches you'll use, how will they be mounted, is the board sturdy, how are the caps made, etc...
Anyway, long story short, you've got two kinds of consumers (breadth vs depth, layman vs expert) looking to get very different things (more order qualifiers vs better order winners) to spend their money on. I am of the persuasion that as you become more knowledgable about the product category, you will naturally move from breadth to depth consumption, but some/many people are often content with blissful ignorance (and I mean that in a non-condescending way).
If you've never tried a mech-board and you haven't had any problems with rubber-domes, don't look into switching. You'll save lots of money (though really, you'd be missing out hard). :wink:
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We should stop caring about the random user reviewer
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Wikipedia on fan death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death)
Apparently South Koreans believe (for a variety of reasons) that a fan will kill you if left on overnight while you sleep, so fans in South Korea tend to be sold with huge letters indicating the timer (in minutes).
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you really don't have to specify skoreans since you'll never hear anything about nkoreans unless they start a war and you'll never meet a nkorean unless they conquer us. Any and all korean contact/culture will always be skorean.
On a related note korean dramas also say that you can work yourself to exhaustion and faint and the cure is to goto the hospital and have a humidifier pointed at your face, cuz a humidifier will heal anything.
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It's like arguing which one is better Popeye's, KFC, or Church's.
Well Popeye's lack extra features such as "chicken on ice"
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The keyboard is the closest thing to most users, and so is the logical place to plug in all sorts of removable storage, sync media players or phones, and other sorts of sporadic temporary connections. My keyboard doesn't have USB ports, but my monitor does and it's very handy.
If the computer is tucked away somewhere and hard to route wires to, it's simpler to plug the mouse (and maybe a game controller) into the keyboard and then run a single cable from the keyboard to the computer.
I agree 100% in what you're saying, but a keyboard USB hub should not be a basis of a review, even by a part, as it's not a necessity, just looks a bit silly especially if you can just use your monitor's USB plugs...heh
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Once you start going down the road of worrying about CNET user reviews you'll go down to Newegg and finally to the cesspool of Amazon reviews!! PULL OUT NOW!
every review site should have the "most helpful" review like amazon, then you don't have to read through a few posts like
"i would have given it 5 stars, but i took 1 away cuz amazon delivered it after christmas"