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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 05:34:47

Title: Unicomp failure. Seeking custom aircraft carrier.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 05:34:47: Hello hello. I've not been lurking long, but Ive appreciated a nice keyboard since the days of the 8088 if that says anything. So dear geekhack.org community, two things.

A.)What are my options for the following criteria?
Black 122 key/24 command terminal emulation keyboard w/ mechanical keyswitches, lock lights, detachable cable, and unique scancodes.

relevant: thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10985)
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: iMav on Fri, 10 December 2010, 05:51:01: The email will do no good and probably just sour the Unicomp folks on you.

Unfortunately, they are what they are. There is a finite list of things that Unicomp can provide to you (a subset of what is listed on their website and an occasional gem found in their old stock...if they happen to be motivated that day to go looking).

Do NOT expect innovation. Do NOT expect variances of their current line up. Unicomp simply does not have the drive/resources/etc...
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 05:56:15: I understand that, but a black terminal board w/ locklights and SDL cable does not strike me as an unreasonable request.

Also, I'm curious if my emails even made it further than just Neil.

The fact is I'm willing to drop $225 for what would probably take (for some of the more experienced members here) $85 for board on ebay, $30 parts + 2-3 hours time and I get told I need to order several thousand. I don't have thirty grand.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:08:04: Sounds to me like you want to buy 1 keyboard ??

Whereas their rep is trying to say this may not be possible as they while require lots of quantities to cater to such orders :/

It's hard to scold them when that is their modus operandi :/ you can try and enquire but don't be rude. You are wanting something from them so you should try to be polite and professional.

You do make some valid points regarding their email thingy that is not up to date; but i hardly would think that justifies the sarcastic rude remarks :/ it would have been better to point out those faults to them in a more politely worded feedback ....

Anyway maybe someone else can help advise you more :]
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:13:31: Bro, there's only, like 4 (old) people that work at Unicomp that are basically riding this thing out until they retire. There's really not that far an e-mail can go. If there's any work that needs to be done outside of parts and tooling they already have set up, be prepared to pay. They are helpful folks, but they are not in the business for creating and marketing new products; their main business is replacing keyboards for older terminals, mainframes, etc. They took the business from Lexmark, which, IIRC, dropped SDL connectors before it spun off into Unicomp. There are some other folks here that can give you more information, but I wouldn't expect anything too ambitious from them. Your frustrations are recognized and noted. All sending that e-mail is going to do is piss them off or make them laugh at you.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:17:31: Actually, I'll eventually want a total of ~30. But just one for now, and 5 more by this time next year.

And if you read carefully, what I'm after takes almost no effort to customize with their existing tooling except for NKRO.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Ekaros on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:18:21: Yeah, they can't do miracles, atleast not for very small custom orders...

Might be easier just to get what they can offer and find third-party to do required modifications...
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:21:27: Quote from: itlnstln;260567
They took the business from Lexmark, which, IIRC, dropped SDL connectors before it spun off into Unicomp.

That would be unfortunate, but the feature is offered on their website as an option for the terminal boards.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:22:41: Quote from: Lessaire;260569
Actually, I'll eventually want a total of ~30. But just one for now, and 5 more by this time next year.

And if you read carefully, what I'm after takes almost no effort to customize with their existing tooling except for NKRO.

Fair enough. But if you send them angry rude remarks this won't help you get what you want.

At the end of the day it's their call if their willing to do it (even if it may hardly take much effort if what you say is true).

Just try to be professional and tell them why you think it wouldn't be much trouble to do and if they would kindly assist you in that regard.

If their not keen; then try someone else :X

You can't force them to :x
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:23:38: Quote from: Ekaros;260570
Might be easier just to get what they can offer and find third-party to do required modifications...

That is what I was trying for, and is why the email sits in my drafts and hasn't been sent.

It's also the point of the second part of my post which no one has commented on.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: kriminal on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:27:47: if its out of the products listed.. its a no go... pretty much
unless you can fund their *cough* RD department.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 06:35:47: Quote from: kriminal;260577
if its out of the products listed.. its a no go... pretty much
unless you can fund their *cough* RD department.

Actually, the first nested quote, also mine, I noted that they already have a board (thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10985)) which inspired the inquiry in the first place. I just want it in black with a detachable cable which are both listed as options on the product page.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 10 December 2010, 07:04:34: I wouldn't send that, it may just make it harder for future enquiries from other customers.

6KRO will require a new membrane and a new controller which means $$$. As you can't just add a couple of diodes, this is not easy at all.

DIP switches or jumpers and a cable connector will require a pcb re-design and/or controller re-programming --> $$$.

Small quantities means it'll be even more expensive.

Without a serious commitment from your side I understand their hesitation. After several years of business I can say that enquiries that promise future sales if you will do this one badly paid job now will come regularly. We always treat those as if the promised future job will not happen.

Take as many options they are willing to give and do the controller stuff yourself.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Fri, 10 December 2010, 09:34:35: You seem to misunderstand...
"I wouldn't send that, it may just make it harder for future enquiries from other customers."
I made an account and posted here instead of sending it. This should make it obvious that I'm generally not some e-thug who needlessly spreads negativity and flames.

"DIP switches or jumpers and a cable connector will require a pcb re-design and/or controller re-programming --> $$$"
THIS IS A PRE-EXISTING FEATURE. Google UB40T56

"After several years of business I can say that enquiries that promise future sales if you will do this one badly paid job now will come regularly"
I was willing to pay $225 for the initial board and $130 each, one every ~60 days, for a total of five more, under contract if need be.

"Take as many options they are willing to give"
That's exactly what I'm going for, but still haven't gotten a reply. Also, I wanted to know my options for an alternative.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: flashstar on Fri, 10 December 2010, 09:49:45: Quote from: Lessaire;260669
You seem to misunderstand...
"I wouldn't send that, it may just make it harder for future enquiries from other customers."
I made an account and posted here instead of sending it. This should make it obvious that I'm generally not some e-thug who needlessly spreads negativity and flames.

"DIP switches or jumpers and a cable connector will require a pcb re-design and/or controller re-programming --> $$$"
THIS IS A PRE-EXISTING FEATURE. Google UB40T56

"After several years of business I can say that enquiries that promise future sales if you will do this one badly paid job now will come regularly"
I was willing to pay $225 for the initial board and $130 each, one every ~60 days, for a total of five more, under contract if need be.

"Take as many options they are willing to give"
That's exactly what I'm going for, but still haven't gotten a reply. Also, I wanted to know my options for an alternative.

A board every 60 days is nothing. If you want them to help you make a custom product, you will probably need to order something like 25-50 boards every month at least. Running a business is expensive and it's impossible to make money if you design a one-off product for someone (who is only going to buy 6 boards over 6 months).
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: 8_INCH_FLOPPY on Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:29:38: Unless you are willing to order and pay for a few hundred of these, you can't expect them to take the time to design and make them. You would understand if you knew how much time and money goes into designing and manufacturing a device like a keyboard in small quantities.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: RoboKrikit on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:19:00: I don't think your request is reasonable TBH. You are asking them to make you a custom product for a small amount of money, with them taking all of the risk. I know they have done keyswaps and such, but that does not require changing the design of the keyboard.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: clickclack on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:22:28: Quote from: iMav;260559
The email will do no good and probably just sour the Unicomp folks on you...

+1

Quote from: Lessaire;260569
Actually, I'll eventually want a total of ~30. But just one for now, and 5 more by this time next year.
And if you read carefully, what I'm after takes almost no effort to customize with their existing tooling except for NKRO.

30 is probably not worth the effort, simple changes are never simple. They require testing and involve maintaning a level of consistency, no matter how simiple.

Quote from: lowpoly;260593
I wouldn't send that, it may just make it harder for future enquiries from other customers...

+2

Quote from: flashstar;260674
A board every 60 days is nothing...

+3

Quote from: 8_INCH_FLOPPY;260833
Unless you are willing to order and pay for a few hundred of these, you can't expect them to take the time to design and make them.... .

+4

Edit: ... and +5 to RoboKriket, haahaa, you just snuck in their.

You are changing a production process (even is slight) and you seem to expect to have this accomplished for prices that would essentially at best end up being "at cost". That wouldn't be good for their business model, they could get suckered easily and often if they did that.

Also, you are publicly reproducting an email that specifically mentions it's not to be reproduced!!!!!!!!! Not cool! You don't want to burn them if you want their business right?

I understand your intense desire for this board, but you really have to be reasonable with them, especially since they do seem to be trying to keep reasonable with you, doncha think?

=)
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:23:38: They charged me $20 to do a simple keyswap, as it required reprogramming. If I order more of them later though, he said they keep those custom firmwares, and I won't have to pay for another, identical model.

Thoroughly reasonable, I thought. Unlike the OP. You wants changes, you pays for them, but only if they can do them.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 11 December 2010, 02:53:03: Another 14 year old who thinks that Unicomp has a magic keyboard machine. Move along folks, nothing to see here.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Sun, 12 December 2010, 13:01:01: Quote from: ripster;260892
If you do send the email ask about my Buckling Spring Mini dammit!
Show Image
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5167/5250117202_bbbab6fa7f_z.jpg)

You are just who I wanted to hear from. To you happen to know what selections of options it takes to get a Unicomp UB40T56? Because no one that's replied yet seem to realize yet that's all I was asking for, in black. I can cannibalize the ports from a few other socketed Model Ms I have and make it have a detachable cord myself. I mean really, everything I asked about except 6KRO is so trivial to do it's not even funny.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Sun, 12 December 2010, 13:02:11: Quote from: ch_123;261197
Another 14 year old who thinks that Unicomp has a magic keyboard machine. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

,|,, >^.^< ,,|,
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: iMav on Sun, 12 December 2010, 13:17:43: Quote from: Lessaire;261759
,|,, >^.^< ,,|,

What you fail to understand is that nobody has more insight into what unicomp can (and/or is willing to) provide then the folks at unicomp. Nothing we say here (including ripster) will change the fact you must deal with the folks at unicomp if you wish to get anything close to what you are wanting.

I would expect a new user here to be a bit more humble and not act out their frustrations at unicomp (which we all have experienced) towards the membership here.

My suggestion? Pick up a phone on Monday and give Unicomp a call. You'll quickly be able to determine what is doable without the frustrations of exchanging emails back and forth (which, like many other things, is not Unicomp's forte).
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 12 December 2010, 14:09:56: Quote from: Lessaire;261759

You do realize, of course, this just reinforces the stereotype, right?
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: J888www on Sun, 12 December 2010, 14:28:34: I would like to say that I have always received exemplary customer service from Unicomp.
Keyboard manufacturing is difficult enough a business without any unnecessary defamation resulted from misunderstanding.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: iMav on Sun, 12 December 2010, 14:39:14: Like I said earlier, give them a call on Monday. Unicomp should be admired for keeping the doors open and giving us good BS options. The frustration comes when we expect innovation, new products, or options they simply aren't tooled to provide. They aren't flexible in what they can provide. Accept them for what they are. And, whenever you have a unique request....CALL them. They are notorious for missteps in their email correspondence.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 12 December 2010, 14:49:27: I second the suggestion to call them. Or third, or whatever.

I called about some parts, and Jim Owens actually offered to provide a custom layout, exactly the one I wanted. Get them on the phone, see what they can do. They are good people, and they provide an excellent product, that isn't offered by anyone else that I know of.

I will most likely buy more from them in the future, especially if I hear about any changes in their operation (or a mini option).
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 12 December 2010, 15:04:48: Many of us here (and not here) rely on Unicomp's treasure trove of old parts to maintain and enhance our buckling spring keyboards. I really don't want a situation where a multitude of people either don't show basic courtesy towards them, or bombard them with stupid requests, and they decide "Ah **** it, not dealing with those types any more", and we end up deprived of things like replacement/customized keycaps, new buckling spring units, replacement keyboard shells for old IBM models, etc etc. So don't ask them to build the SSK when it's barely shorter than their Spacesaver, or NKRO when you can't mount diodes on a membrane, or keyboards that shoot lasers and massage your feet that nobody wants. Just show some cop on.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Soarer on Sun, 12 December 2010, 15:22:14: Quote from: theferenc;260889
They charged me $20 to do a simple keyswap, as it required reprogramming. If I order more of them later though, he said they keep those custom firmwares, and I won't have to pay for another, identical model.

Thoroughly reasonable, I thought. Unlike the OP. You wants changes, you pays for them, but only if they can do them.

I'd call that commercially inept!!

But in a nice way :-)

Seriously, I'd read about the $20 custom firmware job before and was pretty impressed, but to also file it away and not charge you extra on further identical boards is even more impressive.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: KillerBee on Mon, 13 December 2010, 00:31:19: I ordered some keycaps and I got a wrong alt key and they sent me a new set of alts no questions asked
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Mon, 13 December 2010, 07:23:24: Quote from: iMav;261803
Like I said earlier, give them a call on Monday. Unicomp should be admired for keeping the doors open and giving us good BS options. The frustration comes when we expect innovation, new products, or options they simply aren't tooled to provide. They aren't flexible in what they can provide. Accept them for what they are. And, whenever you have a unique request....CALL them. They are notorious for missteps in their email correspondence.

Yeah, that's what I will do. Mostly my frustrations are at Neil, because it's obvious my particular request was beyond his scope of knowledge and should have been forwarded to someone who is prepared to answer me as to what can be done, and what can not.

In no way shape or form did I preconclude the quality of their service based that one exchange.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:01:48: Quote from: ch_123;261816
So don't ask them to build the SSK when it's barely shorter than their Spacesaver, or NKRO when you can't mount diodes on a membrane, or keyboards that shoot lasers and massage your feet that nobody wants. Just show some cop on.

122-key terminal emulation board
unique scan codes
black
detachable cable

where did I hit unreasonable?
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:06:34: Unique scan codes and detachable cables. They don't make detachable cables (AMP-type; the modular RJ-45 is something else entirely) anymore and reprogramming a one-off controller requires labor and time, so they would need money and a fairly large MOQ to make it feasible. Call MS or Logitech, and see if they'll hook you up. I bet you get the same answer.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:13:05: Quote from: clickclack;260888
Also, you are publicly reproducting an email that specifically mentions it's not to be reproduced!!!!!!!!! Not cool! You don't want to burn them if you want their business right?

If you are not the named addressee

I was the named addressee. Therefore, as I do not have any sort of NDA with them, nor was there any trade secrets involved, it was merely my perogative. And it hardly burns them. I removed the email from my post regardless. I emailed him again (the draft was trashed) and got a reply.

Quote
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Neil Muyskens wrote:

Donald,
I APOLGIZE. I misplaced your last note. I'll get you a response later today.
Neil

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Donald Clark <-------@gmail.com> wrote:

I guess I will just call.

--
Unicomp, Inc.
510 Henry Clay Blvd
Lexington, KY 40505
Phone: 859-233-2130 Fax: 859-231-8282
Corporate Website : www.pckeyboard.com

This message and any attachments are solely for the intended recipient and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the named addressee, you should not disseminate, distribute, or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail in error, and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments from your system.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:17:59: Quote from: itlnstln;262178
Unique scan codes and detachable cables. They don't make detachable cables (AMP-type; the modular RJ-45 is something else entirely) anymore and reprogramming a one-off controller requires labor and time, so they would need money and a fairly large MOQ to make it feasible. Call MS or Logitech, and see if they'll hook you up. I bet you get the same answer.

That is a shame about the cable. But as far as I know the other was a production board. I'm just after the ability to do this (http://really.zonky.org/?p=1125)
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: Lessaire on Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:28:05: Quote from: kishy;262191
This sounds much less like a Unicomp failure than a Lessaire failure.

I will accept that.
Title: Unicomp failure.
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:55:54: Quote
unique scan codes

Involves changing electronics.

Quote
black

They already make black ones. Unless you mean black keys, in which case, this one has been done to death, it won't work with their key printing process.

Quote
detachable cable

Involves changing the plastic molds and electronics.

Again, how many people would buy this stuff relative to how much effort it would require?