geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: vipjun on Fri, 10 December 2010, 07:14:13
-
So i think my G15 kb is a piece of crap when it comes to hitting the same key over and over again. basically i can move my fingers faster than the key can move in its up and down state.
[STRIKE] I'm undecided with getting a cherry red, black, or brown. Or Topres
]Also looking at the cherry ML 4100. the active state is 1.5 mm vs 2mm. Have a used 1 for testing delivered
I can say that i do think laptop keys type better than the rubber kb's i've used.
So for a game like tetris where i'm basically not switching hand positions but need to double and triple tap the same key extremely fast which kb should i use?
i think the ML 4100 would be the best figuring the response time would be quickest but haven't really tried any of the other kb's.
Is there anything other than cherry that are just as good or better (How About Topres for Tap gaming)?
I'm willing to spend up to $200 $300
[/STRIKE]
After all the recommendations i've come to the conclusion sanwa buttons are best for this application, since my needs are a bit abnormal i will attempt to a sanwa arcade style box that uses 16 buttons for both hands instead of joystick + button setup
-
So i think my G15 kb is a piece of crap when it comes to hitting the same key over and over again. basically i can move my fingers faster than the key can move in its up and down state.
I'm undecided with getting a cherry red, black, or brown.
Also looking at the cherry ML 4100. the active state is 1.5 mm vs 2mm.
I can say that i do think laptop keys type better than the rubber kb's i've used.
So for a game like tetris where i'm basically not switching hand positions but need to double and triple tap the same key extremely fast which kb should i use?
i think the ML 4100 would be the best figuring the response time would be quickest but haven't really tried any of the other kb's.
Is there anything other than cherry that are just as good or better?
I'm willing to spend up to $200
if you don;t like black switches cuz they are can give you fast a gamer fatigue i shall suggest a cherry MX red switch
-
i thought reds were like impossible to find? because i'm interested too
-
Topres are super fast since the actuation happens electrostatically before you bottom out. I double and triple tap my topres daily ;)
-
Interesting requirements...
It seems to me that a touchpad would make more sense if you can map areas of the touchpad to the desired keys -- zero travel distance and "instant" touch recognition. And, it wouldn't make you have to type on a linear switch, which most people aren't fond of.
-
Welcome to Geekhack! You get a + Rep point for delurking. KL gets a -1 Rep point for recommending a >$200 keyboard.
That's kind of unfair considering it's possible to get them very close to $200. And considering, it may be worth it to spend an extra $20 if you were between a topre and a different keyboard. Luckily for you, I don't care about rep points :D
-
do not buy a ml4100 for high end gaming! they are good cheap mech boards but i wouldn't consider them good for gaming for any stretch of the imagination. They just "feel" weird.
-
Recommended: Sanwa JLF joystick with Sanwa 30mm buttons.
-
Yeah, real controller might be an idea. Other than that, "sort" travel, might be good...
-
this guy too
http://www.dorkly.com/video/7009/best-tetris-player-ever (http://www.dorkly.com/video/7009/best-tetris-player-ever)
-
If price is an issue, go with Cherry black switches or good rubber dome like a gateway2000. Those are the two I prefer for gaming.
-
Hi, thanks for the suggestions.
I am able to get cherry mx reds from Asia. Although i'm not sure if they are really worth the extra price to import it at around $150 USD.
The person in Lanx picture is using a MX black (steelpad 7g) to be exact. but i don't think my fingers are as strong as his, considering one of my issues with the current g15 is getting tired from all the travel time.
I read somewhere that some of the top starcraft players rec cherry brown.. which is an interesting choice. In part of the post, they said linear keys are better for something like an FPS where you are holding down the key for longer periods of tme. While the tactile is favorable for starcraft because you don't hold keys down. I don't know if this is true.
Also the joystick is good mostly for that version of tetris which is single player and pieces drop extremely fast so your actually limited in the type of movements / placements. In multiplayer the keyboard is theoretically faster.
Crypt that is a really interesting suggestion. And it definitely can be macro'd out, however, some of the multiplayer games have cheat sensors to prevent bots from playing, this might interfere with the operation of the touchpad device.
I really haven't had the opportunity to test out any of the mx keys.. I live in a pretty large city NYC and still most of the stores only carry the logitech , microsoft line of products.
Thanks Ripster, I wish i had known about mechanical switching sooner. i would say the prime of my heavy gaming days are actually over now unfortunetly =(.
-
yfIqWBX8nTyb}nW=V%7Gkr4J+(_F2VGm$5m''f56l%o.,#P2$U
-
Well to update , i got 2 used MY 4100 on ebay for slightly under $30.
It was cheap, and i figure just test it out until i decide on the premium KB.
Theres been spans of time where i wanted a small profile KB for the mouse space so this would fit the bill as an alternative keyboard.
-
I read somewhere that some of the top starcraft players rec cherry brown.. which is an interesting choice. In part of the post, they said linear keys are better for something like an FPS where you are holding down the key for longer periods of tme. While the tactile is favorable for starcraft because you don't hold keys down. I don't know if this is true.
This is mostly true, though top players use a variety of switches still. EG team members use SteelSeries products, and thus the 6Gv2 and 7G (Blacks), while Fruitdealer uses a Filco (Browns) while others, such as Slayers_BoxeR, use Blues. And still more are just gaming on membrane keyboards, etc.
The Tactile feel of Browns and Blues is certainly preferable, in my opinion, for playing games where you aren't holding down the keys. And more so when the action isn't immediately clear (moving units on the mini-map without ever looking at them) so that you are certain you've hit the keys you want.
-
Recommended: Sanwa JLF joystick with Sanwa 30mm buttons.
Sure beats....
-
Hey Azuremen, Thanks for your confirmation.
you seem to be pretty knowledgeable in the SC scene.
Could I trouble you for a demo with the Filco (Browns) vs the 6gv2(Black) what do you think of mx reds on tetris after experiencing browns and black?
and maybe anyone else who would like to give their feedback with their mechanical setup. =)
I guess an ok benchmark would be playing
The 40 line sprint mode on
http://www.tetrisfriends.com/games/Sprint/game.php
One of the biggest issues that starts to creep up when you start playing fast is while tapping the same key consecutively the second key press happens so quick that the keyboard thinks you're holding down the key twice instead of hitting the same key (on a dome key that is).
I'm not sure if it's because the reset state on the G15 are higher than the active state ( might be same issue with the mx blues)?
I am by no means fast compared to the pro players but going under 1:30 1minute30seconds you should start feeling it.
-
i think the ml4100 has 2kro? actually i don't even know what i'm talking about i do know that if i hit 4chars on the ml4100 in notepad only 3chars come up, if i mash as many keys all at once, only 3 chars come up.
(note i never did care for nkro so tell me of a better way to test)
just thought you'd like to know since it seems you want it for some sort of high nkro.
-
Yes the ML 4100 is 2kro from what i researched. In tetris however, i don't see the need to use more than 2 keys at once, since they are almost never in a down state.
-
ml4100 good to wet your appetite for mechs, ml4100 > rubber domes. But cherry mx's > ml. so at least you know.
-
Recommended: Sanwa JLF joystick with Sanwa 30mm buttons.
Sure beats....
Actually the person on the bottom is faster.
The person with the joystick the game starts at :15 second and by 1:00 he's cleared 20 lines and has built about 5 lines high. So lets say he cleared 25 lines.
The person on the bottom has already cleared 40 lines within those 45 seconds.
-
8 fingers > 1 hand and finger buttons!
-
ml4100 good to wet your appetite for mechs, ml4100 > rubber domes. But cherry mx's > ml. so at least you know.
Ahh how i wish i can demo all of them side by side =/
-
Actually the person on the bottom is faster.
The person with the joystick the game starts at :15 second and by 1:00 he's cleared 20 lines and has built about 5 lines high. So lets say he cleared 25 lines.
The person on the bottom has already cleared 40 lines within those 45 seconds.
The first video starts slow and speeds up. I hope you stuck around for the finale. :)
The PC version played in the 2nd video also has the hint blocks at the bottom.
-
Hey Azuremen, Thanks for your confirmation.
you seem to be pretty knowledgeable in the SC scene.
Could I trouble you for a demo with the Filco (Browns) vs the 6gv2(Black) what do you think of mx reds on tetris after experiencing browns and black?
and maybe anyone else who would like to give their feedback with their mechanical setup. =)
I don't know of any demos that focus on the keyboard being used too much. The only major display of how a player acts in SC2 would be the infamous NaDa and Moon APM demonstration, which was done on Razer Lycosa boards (bleh)
I will say double tapping is a bit faster on Blacks than Browns or Blues, if you are constantly doing it, because there is no extra resistance at the actuation point. This means you can just flex your finger tip and actuate the key if you are hovering just over the point. I've yet to try Reds, but I imagine they'd be even better than Blacks in that regard.
As for that Tetris time trial, I feel very slow now. It has been a while since I've played much Tetris, especially with a keyboard.
-
Browns. For gaming. Every time. Blacks if you can't stand how floaty browns feel while holding WASD after a few weeks. You should get used to it. For SC2 or anything where you aren't just holding down the key forever, browns hands down. Reds are sort of better than browns for pretty much everything, but there are no really good keyboards at a reasonable price with reds. It's just not worth it at the current price when browns have the same performance.
Blues sort of have a double tap issue. You won't notice it if you pound the key twice like a rubber dome, but if you are used to browns where the key can actuate twice by just pressing it once and slightly shaking your finger it's pretty noticeable. With that said, it's still personal preference. You are going to do just as well with rubber dome, cherry mx anything, etc, as long as the keyboard has decent rollover and is a quality product. Stay away from 2kro if you can.
The person who suggested sanwa buttons is probably right. They are pretty much MX Reds with less actuation force required (not really, but it's the closest switch comparison.) If you even brush against them they activate. They are great and you can find some affordable arcade sticks with them these days or make one yourself. The buttons themselves range from $1-$2 each (24mm-30mm) and you can hack together a stick out of a $8 usb pad if it comes down to it.
-
Ahh how i wish i can demo all of them side by side =/
while your on your ebay buying spree try this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-MX11800-PS2-RackMount-Keyboard-w-Trackball-18515-/130464274910?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1e6046d9de (http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-MX11800-PS2-RackMount-Keyboard-w-Trackball-18515-/130464274910?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1e6046d9de)
mxbrown, it's rackmounted so i would be a good guess that it was lightly if ever used, it's basically the defacto "wet my cherry" (no pun intended!!!) board.
edit*
i just saw you said you live in nyc, goto j&r they carry das, i don't know if they have stuff out on display anymore (i haven't been inside since 01) but a subway token ride couldn't hurt.
-
thnx for the link lanx.. will consider buying it . Yes i do agree that for the current price and hassle of shipping MX reds are not a good buy.
WoW J&R i haven't been to that store since the late 90's lol. Will have a look there next week. Thanks for the tips.
-
Anyone can provide some feedback reg Topres vs Cherry MX for fast taping games? (Tetris, Starcraft, and any of those DDR / Guitar hero games on keyboard)
I wonder how a keyboard with keys that are made out of mouse clickers would feed =).
-
If i played Tetris I would use a SEGA VSHG ... I have seen people recommend this for tetris before.
-
Anyone can provide some feedback reg Topres vs Cherry MX for fast taping games? (Tetris, Starcraft, and any of those DDR / Guitar hero games on keyboard)
I wonder how a keyboard with keys that are made out of mouse clickers would feed =).
It is my current preference for games. As much as I'd like to think otherwise though, it feels a lot like a normal membrane board as far as the fast-pressing benefits. In games you're usually slamming down anyway.
I haven't used Cherry Black extensively, though.
I've found Cherry Blue near unusable for games, because of the need to release the key to a certain point.
-
It is my current preference for games. As much as I'd like to think otherwise though, it feels a lot like a normal membrane board as far as the fast-pressing benefits. In games you're usually slamming down anyway.
.
Are you talking about the topres keyboards?
-
For rapid presses I feel Topre (and any rubber domes for that matter) are pretty terrible in comparison with spring based switches. It's been mentioned before, but the spring under the Topre domes doesn't push back your finger as a spring in say, a cherry brown would. When very high speeds come into play, the finger is normally waiting on the dome to reform before it can press the key again.
-
How many fingers do you need for Tetris? If I were you I'd get some Sanwa buttons and hook them up to some old keyboard PCB. They are actually designed for this kind of thing - I can't imagine the Cherries being better than a Sanwa switch for gaming.
I don't think that any Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter players replace their Sanwa buttons with Cherry ones.
-
. When very high speeds come into play, the finger is normally waiting on the dome to reform before it can press the key again.
I agree with you 100%, and its happening to me right now.. i feel like i want to crazy GLUE the keys to my finger.
I see there are a few people recommending the sawna joystick. But I'm pretty certain movement with the keyboard is much faster for multiplayer tetris.
Yes there is a version of tetris using the joystick called TGM and the joystick is pretty better suited to that single player version.
This is one of the reasons why the joystick is better for TGM
http://tetris.wikia.com/wiki/Zangi-move
The fastest 40 line clears in tetris were also all made on keyboard by multiple different players. Joystick doesn't show up anywhere in the top times.
I'm not sure if this is the fastest time anymore, but its darn close
-
Are you talking about the topres keyboards?
Yes
-
Cherry browns = fast tapping
-
Sanwas are EXTREMELY light as well.
Kinda big though.
That contraption looks awesome - a trackball? Looks more comfortable than my Kensington Expertmouse.
I agree that they are a bit big. But if you buy just the switches inside you can put keyboard keys on top. ~1 EU per switch, or 2 EU per 24mm button.
I'm actually building a WASD pad out of them. When you have keys mounted straight on the switch it isn't QUITE as stable as when you have the full button enclosure. The action of the fulls buttons are wonderful wherever you hit them.
I'm tossing up whether to form WASD from the circular buttons - if you file away the side part (where it screws in to things) of button casinf, you can definitely get the same spacing as on a keyboard.
You could also buy the square shaped ones used for e.g. Beatmania. Or 18/20 mm buttons.
-
Its a cst trackball, I've got one and I really like it. Check the mods section for more side buttom mods
-
I see there are a few people recommending the sawna joystick. But I'm pretty certain movement with the keyboard is much faster for multiplayer tetris.
In my case the recommendation is more for the buttons than the stick.
Some SF players don't even use a stick. :)
That particular setup is a little weird in that it uses the smaller 24mm buttons (except for thumb) that are usually used for the Start button, but some keyboard players prefer it that way.
-
I have to give a vote for browns, or a custom setup with Sanwa arcade buttons. I play quite a bit of stepmania, the ddr-clone on pc, and I had huge issues with blues for quick repetitive taps, but no problems at all with browns. I can't speak for blacks, but they take quite a bit of force, I ruled them out as probably too tiring for regular use without even trying them. I'll probably pick up a cheap black board at some point just to see what I'm missing out on, but I don't see it replacing my filco with browns.
As for Sanwa's, you could easily fab your own controller up using just the pushbuttons, it shouldn't set you back much at all. I've never tried gaming with the 24mm's, but the 30mm's are absolutely amazing, assuming you don't rest your hand on them. They really do activate with almost no force, you can look at them cross-eyed and get a press. They've got VERY little travel, as well, which makes them ideal for something like this.
-
All of this makes me want to construct a Sanwa input device, just so I can make a nice wooden box for those colorful buttons.
-
In my case the recommendation is more for the buttons than the stick.
Some SF players don't even use a stick. :)
That particular setup is a little weird in that it uses the smaller 24mm buttons (except for thumb) that are usually used for the Start button, but some keyboard players prefer it that way.
what's the premise behind the controller layout and not using wasd? don't really use up really? make use of the thumb? have 4 working fingers on all arrow keys as opposed to 3?
-
In my case the recommendation is more for the buttons than the stick.
Some SF players don't even use a stick. :)
I guess i miss interpreted you first post.. after seeing that video.. it actually makes a lot of sense and this would probably the ultimate tap input device.
Gonna look at the mod section now and see how one would be able to make this set of sanwa buttons. Cool idea indeed thanks
-
If you want to experiment with button placement, I recommend getting neodymium magnets for a couple of dollars from e.g. ebay. I've adhered my buttons to L shaped bits of metal and put the magnets on the bottom. These then stick to a metal plate. The magnets are VERY strong, so the buttons don't shift when i press them, but I can still move them around with enough force.
A keyboard hack is quite easy, especially if you only need a few buttons. I'm using a PSX pad -> PC as my PCB now, since the keyboard matrix becomes annoying for a lot of buttons.
-
Thanks everyone for all the recommendations.. although the end result didn't come materialize into changing into a mech keyboard.. After considering all the options it really seems a sanwa button implementation like the street fighter stick is the best way to go.
I am going to try and get some parts for it.. and build a box with my city slicker carpentry skills (close to none)
So this thread might change somewhat. to a how to build a sanwa input device.
a list of materials i need
1. Sanwa buttons x16
2. Wire
3. PCB
4. Something to create the enclosure
The magnet suggestion was really good as well.. i do want a mod where the buttons could be moved around for different applications etc.
is there anything i could use to make the faceplate adjustable to how a button would layout?
Also i'm trying to find posts on directions to building it, since i don't have experience in this area.
-
-
-
And all non stick sf players are ass quote me for truth <3
Well even if i end up being ass in SF.. this little box would be put to good use in other applications.
-
-
-
I don't see why a stick would be preferable to an array of buttons. A stick has to 'move' from one to the other. It's harder by definition, its only advantage is that it's intuitive (and probably more fun, but, you know).
-
stick brings with it old school memories and prolly staying true to the arcade of stick only. Altho there are mods out there that let ps3/360 fps ppl play with a mouse, imagine the pwn. (which is why cod cannot have 360/pc match matching the best 360 player would loose to the most average pc player).
-
And all non stick sf players are ass quote me for truth <3
Cept for Vangief! If you don't know him, he's a new top tier SF4 player that competes on a pad.
-
And all non stick sf players are ass quote me for truth <3
More SF players in the house. Stick and 6-button for me plz. 8-button is ****. ;)
Cept for Vangief! If you don't know him, he's a new top tier SF4 player that competes on a pad.
Victheslik is actually a pretty well-known player in SF including SF4.
-
If you're looking for tips on building with Sanwa parts, then consider having a look at the Shoryuken forums. When you buy your buttons, you should also probably pickup Seimitsu ones for comparison - they are springier and slightly more forceful (still <<< most keyboards) than Sanwa.
And just to chime in on non-stick SF - aren't players like Shizza, Alioune, Luffy, Snake Eyes starting to turn the tide? I'd also think that, theoretically, 1 movement button per finger is a better solution.
-
-
-
@vic
I few months ago I decided that I wanted to learn SF4 and put a lot of thought into pad v stick etc. I always played sf with pad from my younger days on the Saturn, and all my attempts to switch failed. To convince myself that stick was worth it I starting practicing and measuring min input time for various moves on pad vs stick (in frames). It's true that I got lowest with the stick for 2xQCF, SRK etc., but only by a smaller amount. Actually my right hand was the best. :D
I'm curious to try this again with buttons as a comparison... In the end I couldn't convince my friends to play SF, so it was academic anyway!
-
Many people prefer the look of seimitsu buttons due to the fact that you can put art under the actual button, however if you prefer the look of seimitsu, but like the feel of sanwa's you could replace the spring (just like cherries) and have the look and feel (surface) but the force of a sanwa (and you can light it up ....)
This works pretty well with 'small-switch' Seimitsus since you can just swap in the SW-68 Sanwa switches (snap out, snap in, no tools), but most of the stuff they're making now uses the large switches (2nd from right).
(http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands/switches.jpg)
My favorite swap is large-switch Seimitsu for the Sanwa G1 switch from the Sanwa RG buttons. It raises up the plunger a little bit, but the feel is pretty cool. You can barely hear it in play, but this is a clicky switch. They're about 5 bucks a pop though for the switch alone.
(http://deviation.org/sticks/hrapsa/hrap_black_buttons.jpg)
@Robokrikit- :D ~ <3, Sadly I don't really play thhaaaat much anymore, however... half of the videos are all misplaced on youtube due to random spelling as Victheslik, Victheslick, Vic the slick , and son and so forth.... however if you are bored and wanna see some third strike (SCR-SoCal Regionals) I did peace out Sako in losers (read: scrubbed out) xD~ however for finals the next day Fathers birthday (family first) so I was obligated to let others players get ahead ~
Haha, nice job vs Sako. I missed SCR but saw most of NCR the other weekend.
I played the most during WW, CE, HF days out in VA, but I still love SF and get in some playtime when I can. Buktooth's crib is nearby and I've been over there a couple times, and I've been teaching my younger brothers (<= 18yo) to play.
-
I actually picked up snap-in seimitsu pearl buttons because they still used the smaller switches, and swapped them to sanwa switches. The sanwa switches are a super light linear switch, while the seimitsu's are slightly heavier and tactile. I'd say get both to try them out, but I personally prefer sanwa's feel.
I'd check LizardLick (http://www.lizardlick.com/) or AkihabaraShop (http://www.akihabarashop.jp/) for the buttons themselves. I've ordered from both, and never had any problems.
-
you stick modding guys should apply your skills to keyboard modding!
-
-
-
I actually picked up snap-in seimitsu pearl buttons because they still used the smaller switches, and swapped them to sanwa switches. The sanwa switches are a super light linear switch, while the seimitsu's are slightly heavier and tactile. I'd say get both to try them out, but I personally prefer sanwa's feel.
I'd check LizardLick (http://www.lizardlick.com/) or AkihabaraShop (http://www.akihabarashop.jp/) for the buttons themselves. I've ordered from both, and never had any problems.
I wouldn't call Seimitsus tactile; they are pretty much identical to Sanwas with a slightly stiffer spring. Even the Sanwa RGs with their (quiet) clicky microswitch don't really have a tactile feel. If you want tactile you need to go with American parts or these Sanwas w/Omrons:
(http://www.akihabarashop.jp/images/OBS-30A.jpg)
I wouldn't, though. :)
@Robokrikit - I forgot to mention I noticed your stick collection earlier, nice :). However I really detest the new Hori due to the placement of the start button.... With that being said I actually never went to any NCR kind of too lazy to go... however with that being said keep your eye out for West Coast Warzone 3 :D , if things go according to plan then watch out for "Team No Skill" Victheslik, Mr. KOF, Kai (or) Clakey D (or that may change along the road as well.
Yeah, the new Horis look nice, but the Start placement is pretty stupid, especially after getting such a nice example from MarkMan on how to design a tournament stick. I moved mine to the sides using some really stiff generic pushbuttons. The 24mm Sanwas are nice but you don't really need that kind of sensitivity on your "disqualify me now" button.
(http://i.imgur.com/UrXXcl.jpg) (http://deviation.org/sticks/te/cthulhu_rj45_usb_mod/start_select_wiring.jpg)
Good luck at WCW3!
-
any idea on where to find a Cthulu board? I can deal with the components myself, I just want the board (or at least a kit or something, anything but the assembled board!)
-
any idea on where to find a Cthulu board? I can deal with the components myself, I just want the board (or at least a kit or something, anything but the assembled board!)
Toodles doesn't sell the kits anymore. Unless you can find someone who bought one a couple years ago and didn't use it I think you are out of luck.
-
I wouldn't call Seimitsus tactile; they are pretty much identical to Sanwas with a slightly stiffer spring. Even the Sanwa RGs with their (quiet) clicky microswitch don't really have a tactile feel. If you want tactile you need to go with American parts or these Sanwas w/Omrons:
All of my Seimitsu buttons feel tactile, though they're not clicky and it's a VERY light bump very close to the top of the travel... If you press it with any real force you won't notice, but it does make resting your fingers on the buttons less likely to accidentally press one. Granted, I haven't used any of the newer large Seimitsu switches, just the older ones that are a direct swap for Sanwa switches, but I'm told the new ones feel the same.
-
So, if I wanted to make my own arcade stick then (for SF) how would I do about that?
-
The most comprehensive reference is Slagcoin's site (http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick.html). I would start there and use the SRK Tech Talk (http://shoryuken.com/f177/) forums for research and questions. Also helpful are the arcadecontrols.com (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/) guys, though they tend to focus more on building cabinets in my experience.
For fast service on parts in the US, I like LizardLick (http://www.lizardlick.com/), and for harder to find parts or parts in bulk (prices are lower but shipping from Japan is slower) I order from Akihabarashop (http://akihabarashop.jp/).
-
Thanks! Oh man this is going to be FUN :D