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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: spremino on Wed, 15 December 2010, 12:20:10

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: spremino on Wed, 15 December 2010, 12:20:10

Hello,

I'd like a Caps Lock key without its right-side step on my IBM Model M, like it such key is shaped on the Filcos (among others).  The step is there to avoid pressing Caps Lock by accident, but since I've remapped it to Control, I'd like an easier access.  Even more so since I sometimes have to press Control + Shift, and left Shift is narrower on ISO (European) keyboards.

I thought about swapping Caps Lock with some other key, but it seems it's not doable.

Any suggestions?  Thanks.

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: RoboKrikit on Wed, 15 December 2010, 12:35:26

From another thread:

Quote from: sixty;242780

Finding a non stepped key is nearly impossible.

Read on webwit's quest here: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&search_target=title&search_keyword=quest&document_srl=1874062

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 15 December 2010, 12:49:52

Fill the step with epoxy putty  ... :-P

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: spremino on Thu, 16 December 2010, 12:25:26

Quote from: Findecanor;263555

Fill the step with epoxy putty  ... :-P

Compared to getting my hands on a Japanese keyboard, this seems an easier option.  Any suggestion about materials to use to make a mould?  What about getting a rougher typing surface (like Model Ms)?  Thanks.

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 16 December 2010, 14:11:01

With both Milliput and Tamiya's epoxy putty the consistency is like modelling clay. There is no need to make a mold. It takes about six hours to harden, and you can work it in that time. You use water to soften it.
You can cut off the excess with a knife, wet the surface and make it smoother with some flat object. A rough surface can be achieved by wetting it and stippling it with a hard brush (either a really well-used old brush and/ or one where you have cut the straws short).
Be sure to wipe off any excess putty with a wet towel or q-tips where you don't want it.

Of course, the curved surface of the key is not easy to change.. and the putty would have a different colour than the plastic. That is why there was a ':-P' in my post above ;-)

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: spremino on Thu, 16 December 2010, 14:20:24

Thanks, Findecanor.  I was thinking about using a mold obtained from another key because that way achieving an almost perfect shape would be easier.  Do you think I could make such a mold with epoxy putty itself, after having oiled the model key to avoid the epoxy putty sticking?

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sat, 18 December 2010, 21:37:22

Quote from: spremino;264161

Thanks, Findecanor.  I was thinking about using a mold obtained from another key because that way achieving an almost perfect shape would be easier.  Do you think I could make such a mold with epoxy putty itself, after having oiled the model key to avoid the epoxy putty sticking?

I have found candle wax a very effective mold for epoxy. I would take a shallow container and melt some paraffin then wait til it is cooled enough so it isn't liquid but still warm enough to be soft and malleable, then taking a mold of the object by pressing it into the wax.  It helped much to coat the object first with oil and/or powdered graphite lube to keep the wax from sticking.  Put the whole thing in the fridge for a few minutes and then it should be hard enough.

I was using liquid epoxy rather than putty, so you may want to put it in the freezer to firm up the mold before shoving putty in it.  And don't forget to coat the mold with wd-40 or oil or something first too as it comes away a good deal easier, but the nice thing about wax is that once the thing being formed is hardened, you can break off the mold or even melt it if the stuff you're using won't also suffer from the heat required.

EDIT >> You can also add dye or paint to the epoxy while mixing and get a very uniform color... I did this with some calligraphy ink to replace a knob that had gotten lost and no one believed I actually made the thing myself until I took it off and showed them the backside of it wasn't hollow like the others.

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: Cheese101 on Sun, 19 December 2010, 04:45:55

Quote from: ripster;263540

Webwit did it by buying a Japanese Brother IBM Buckling Spring and swapping the key.

A bit extreme but it worked.  See the small RSHIFT?

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=118)

IIRC Unicomp doesn't supply them.

Wow that spacebar is ridiculous

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 19 December 2010, 05:26:15

The Japanese don't uses spaces as much as writers/speakers of European languages do, so it's not that mad.

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 19 December 2010, 06:30:10

Quote from: spremino;264161

Do you think I could make such a mold with epoxy putty itself, after having oiled the model key to avoid the epoxy putty sticking?

As a general rule; rigid cast - soft mould, soft cast - rigid mould. Using the same material for mould and cast can be tricky, and the risk of screwing it up is much higher.

Quote from: ch_123;265628

The Japanese don't uses spaces as much as writers/speakers of European languages do, so it's not that mad.

The Tron keyboard layout, that was designed for Japanese has only a single-width key as space bar.
How many people here use both hands for the space bar anyway? I always use my right thumb. If that space bar was shifted one unit to the right it would be perfect for me.

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: aegrotatio on Sun, 19 December 2010, 22:15:40

Other threads in the forum have suggested Crayola Modelling Clay.
I love my Model Ms and Space Savers but the stepped caps lock keys are an abomination.
Even the so-called "Unix layout" Unicomp keyboard comes with a, get this, ahhaha, I can't stop laughing, ahahhahahahh, a STEPPED CTRL KEY to put in the caps lock key's place.

Title: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: NamelessPFG on Mon, 20 December 2010, 02:59:36

Quote from: ripster;263540

Japanese Brother IBM Buckling Spring

Wait a minute-there are Japanese Model Ms that actually use buckling springs rather than ALPS?

I've gotta get my hands on one of those, just for the hell of it. (ISO Enter and different punctuation placements will screw me over royally trying to actually type on it, though.)

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: absfac on Tue, 01 April 2014, 13:00:07

Resurrecting this old thread...

This morning I dusted off my Unicomp 104, looking to bring it out of retirement, & I realized again that the stepped caps lock is pretty much a dealbreaker for me.

Are epoxy and Japanese-layout shift key still the two best known options for fixing this?

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 01 April 2014, 13:08:06

Quote from: absfac on Tue, 01 April 2014, 13:00:07

Resurrecting this old thread...

This morning I dusted off my Unicomp 104, looking to bring it out of retirement, & I realized again that the stepped caps lock is pretty much a dealbreaker for me.

Are epoxy and Japanese-layout shift key still the two best known options for fixing this?

As far as I have seen, it still hasn't been done enough to know for sure. Please mod yours and let us know! I'll send you a spare if you need one.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 01 April 2014, 15:36:50

Quote from: spremino on Wed, 15 December 2010, 12:20:10

Hello,

I'd like a Caps Lock key without its right-side step on my IBM Model M, like it such key is shaped on the Filcos (among others).  The step is there to avoid pressing Caps Lock by accident, but since I've remapped it to Control, I'd like an easier access.  Even more so since I sometimes have to press Control + Shift, and left Shift is narrower on ISO (European) keyboards.

I thought about swapping Caps Lock with some other key, but it seems it's not doable.

Any suggestions?  Thanks.

get a bigger key. Unicomp should sell blank modifiers and multiwides.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: E TwentyNine on Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:10:58

Quote from: absfac on Tue, 01 April 2014, 13:00:07

Resurrecting this old thread...

This morning I dusted off my Unicomp 104, looking to bring it out of retirement, & I realized again that the stepped caps lock is pretty much a dealbreaker for me.

Are epoxy and Japanese-layout shift key still the two best known options for fixing this?

You're never going to find the Japanese key so forget that.

But you can use a right side shift key from an standard M.   You'll have to cut it down on the left somewhat but the position of the stem is correct for everything to the right to line up. I suppose you can repair the left side of the key with putty or epoxy, maybe get the original left side back on...

This is a better approach that putty filling a stepped key because it maintains the proper surface on the top of the key.

You can try to get a blank one from Unicomp.  It's not listed on their site but I have to believe that if you contact support they'll be able to set that up.

If they don't, you can buy their Geekhack shift set (http://pckeyboard.com/page/SBLE/GHShiftKeys), or the RGB unprinted set they offer (http://pckeyboard.com/page/Buttons/RGB).

Edit:  Realized that you can also just get a standard printed one from Unicomp or elsewhere, because cutting off the left side cuts off the text on the key.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: absfac on Sat, 05 April 2014, 20:46:22

Quote from: E TwentyNine on Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:10:58

But you can use a right side shift key from an standard M.   You'll have to cut it down on the left somewhat but the position of the stem is correct for everything to the right to line up. I suppose you can repair the left side of the key with putty or epoxy, maybe get the original left side back on...

This is a better approach that putty filling a stepped key because it maintains the proper surface on the top of the key.

You can try to get a blank one from Unicomp.  It's not listed on their site but I have to believe that if you contact support they'll be able to set that up.

If they don't, you can buy their Geekhack shift set (http://pckeyboard.com/page/SBLE/GHShiftKeys), or the RGB unprinted set they offer (http://pckeyboard.com/page/Buttons/RGB).

Edit:  Realized that you can also just get a standard printed one from Unicomp or elsewhere, because cutting off the left side cuts off the text on the key.

Thanks for the tips!

Ordered a bunch of RGB key caps this past week (the mods aren't compatible with my Ultra Classic 104, but I just needed the right-shift keys), & they arrived today. Naturally I couldn't wait to get into it. Photos/video:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/absfackeycap/sets/72157643488205464/

Mostly it works great. There are just a couple of minor caveats.

1. Obviously there's the cosmetic issue. I'm going to invest some more time later sanding down the outer edge and seeing if I can trim and epoxy-glue the left side of the cap onto the sawed-off end.

2. A little more annoyingly, if you compare the videos shown in the last two entries in the album, the modded shift definitely wiggles from side to side more than my original stepped caps lock. It took me a little while to pinpoint the exact reason for this. At first I thought it was the angle at which my finger hits the key. However, on closer inspection, I have realized that the stem width of my caps lock is very slightly but measurably wider than the stem on this green right shift! I was pretty surprised by this and I haven't determined yet if this is normal manufacturing variation or an intentional design difference.

However, neither of these are really dealbreakers. The cosmetic issue doesn't bother me too much (BS boards aren't really known for their cosmetic beauty anyway (/puts on flame retardant suit)). The wiggling is annoying if you focus on it, but in ordinary typing it's completely unnoticeable for me, especially since when you're banging on a BS board you're using a lot of downward force anyway.

More to follow after I've have more time to mess around. Still, my initial report is that if you want to dive in with buckling springs but can't stand stepped caps lock, this is an easy and pretty cheap ($9 for the RGB mods set) solution.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 05 April 2014, 21:21:55

Quote from: absfac on Sat, 05 April 2014, 20:46:22

the stem width of my caps lock is very slightly but measurably wider than the stem on this green right shift!

The stems are all the same. I have used lots of M/Fs with bare stems in all the locations. If they were not exactly the same, outside of whatever the manufacturing tolerances are, they would be impossible to insert and remove.

The wobble must be from no stabilizer, the step would obviously make the key much stiffer.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: E TwentyNine on Sun, 06 April 2014, 07:40:09

Quote from: absfac on Sat, 05 April 2014, 20:46:22

Thanks for the tips!

Glad it could be put to use.  The stems are the same, I would think the wobble is from manufacturing quality slipping.  I'd try some other keys in there and see how they wobble - an original single width key from your M, Ctrl from your M, and the Alt and Ctrl keys from the modifier set.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: blackbox on Sun, 06 April 2014, 08:57:58

A alternative to epoxy clay is sugru. Brilliant clay to fix many things

http://sugru.com/about (http://sugru.com/about)

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: absfac on Sun, 06 April 2014, 13:20:10

Quote from: fohat.digs on Sat, 05 April 2014, 21:21:55

Quote from: absfac on Sat, 05 April 2014, 20:46:22

the stem width of my caps lock is very slightly but measurably wider than the stem on this green right shift!

The stems are all the same. I have used lots of M/Fs with bare stems in all the locations. If they were not exactly the same, outside of whatever the manufacturing tolerances are, they would be impossible to insert and remove.

Oh, I agree that the stems should be the same in theory. I mean the holes are all the same. But I have inspected stems from several Unicomp keysets now, including my original right shift, and it seems that the right shift's stem is consistently very slightly narrower than the stems on the other keys. This is probably due to some tiny unintentional difference in the molds' stem widths, which has gone unnoticed since the right shift also has a stabilizer post.

You're right that stem width difference would make it impossible to use the key cap... if the stem were too thick. But stems can definitely be slightly *narrower*, especially on keys with stabilizers.

I'll don't have my digital calipers now but I'll post some readings later in the week.

BTW it was OP who had a Model M. I have a Unicomp Ultra Classic 104. I just piled onto this thread because I wanted to deal with my stepped caps problem. :)

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 06 April 2014, 14:47:37

Quote from: absfac on Sun, 06 April 2014, 13:20:10

But stems can definitely be slightly *narrower*, especially on keys with stabilizers.

The modern post/insert stabilizers are pretty snug and would prevent most side-to-side movement.

If it were the original wire stabilizers, that wiggle would be very noticeable!

When I test keyboards, I just put plain stems in every slot, until they check out.

My experience is almost exclusively with IBM Model Ms, although I have bought at least a couple of dozen caps from Unicomp and clickykeyboards.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: E TwentyNine on Sun, 06 April 2014, 16:50:06

Quote from: absfac on Sun, 06 April 2014, 13:20:10

BTW it was OP who had a Model M. I have a Unicomp Ultra Classic 104. I just piled onto this thread because I wanted to deal with my stepped caps problem. :)

Well, you might want to contact clickeykeyboards or one of the ebay sellers to get a genuine^tm IBM right shift key that maybe has  a thicker stem.

Edit:  Like this ebay seller, $2 a key shipped:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/161268830622

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: absfac on Thu, 01 May 2014, 03:59:15

Quote from: absfac on Sun, 06 April 2014, 13:20:10

I'll don't have my digital calipers now but I'll post some readings later in the week.

...finally got around to this (sorry for the delay, had some stuff going on).

Here are some caliper measurements with right shift keys; respectively, the original grey printed rshift, a blank black rshift, blank green rshift, and the sawed-off green rshift (all Unicomp):
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3][attach=4]

Here are a few caliper measurements for other keys; respectively, Enter, the (stepped) Caps Lock, Ctrl, and "A" from the original board.
[attach=5][attach=6][attach=7][attach=8]

The stem on the rshift is definitely 0.45-0.5mm narrower than the caps lock, which actually has one of the thickest stems on the board. Note that the enter key also has a somewhat narrower stem.

Anyway, it's not a big deal, but I just thought I'd settle this question. I'm still pretty happy with the sawed-off shift mod.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 01 May 2014, 09:42:55

That's really interesting.  What's the measurement on the Tab key?  Is there any variation among the alphas?

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 01 May 2014, 13:21:10

Perhaps now we will see a whole new crop of buckling spring mods:

"All sub-6mm key stems replaced with stems measuring 6.05mm minimum for least wobble"

or

"All key stems caliper between 5.75mm and 5.90mm for lightest feel"

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: debiatan on Sun, 24 April 2022, 03:03:06

I've ordered a couple of these:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2 (https://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2)
I don't have any hope for the texture of the key. I'll report when I try them.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: NathanA on Mon, 25 April 2022, 18:50:00

Quote from: debiatan on Sun, 24 April 2022, 03:03:06

I've ordered a couple of these:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2 (https://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2)

Wow, quite the thread necro. :)

Looks like this one requires the bottom part of Model M 2-part 1U caps, much like IBM's own 1.5U keys do.  Clever.

Of course, in Anno Domini 2022, you could probably just buy one of Ellipse's non-stepped caps from him and be done with it!

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: debiatan on Fri, 13 May 2022, 01:17:01

I hadn't realized that was an option :-[ . I clearly need to step up my game!

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: thefarside on Sat, 14 May 2022, 05:48:29

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ Sells sets with non-stepped caps lock. You can also get swapped control and caps keys. Attached is a pic of my setup using dark grey and industry blue.

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: NathanA on Sun, 15 May 2022, 10:45:32

Quote from: thefarside on Sat, 14 May 2022, 05:48:29

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ Sells sets with non-stepped caps lock.

I do believe that is literally what I said. ;)

Quote from: NathanA on Mon, 25 April 2022, 18:50:00

Of course, in Anno Domini 2022, you could probably just buy one of Ellipse's non-stepped caps from him and be done with it!

Title: Re: IBM Model M: Caps Lock without step?
Post by: thefarside on Sun, 15 May 2022, 11:44:25

Whoops missed that!