geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Hamblet on Sat, 18 December 2010, 02:01:19

Title: I cut my throat. Next is yours.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 18 December 2010, 02:01:19

I cut my throat. Next is yours.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Sat, 18 December 2010, 03:25:54

Having a changeable activation point is neat, but it could be a big technical problem. If they find a stable working solution - kudos.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 18 December 2010, 10:19:29

I haven't the foggiest.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Sat, 18 December 2010, 10:37:35

Quote from: ripster;265211

Anybody care to translate this post for me?

Not me, I suck at English, and I don't want certain elite language Nazi after me. He is free to argue with me in my native language, though.

But it is either a hypothetical new Topre keyboard which has adjustable activation point, or a suggestion that they do such. In both cases, it is possible to a certain extent, because the sensing is capacitive and the activation point could be "moved" to different positions on the travel axis. It is also not so easy technically, because the capacitance measurement should be rock solid against temperature, humidity, etc. variations.

From what ItlnStln suggested, the activation point on Topre is bit odd, so such an end-user adjustable selection may be a big win.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: HaaTa on Sat, 18 December 2010, 11:17:42

Interesting, I heard mention of keyboards like these in Japan (not this one), from some random co-workers. I didn't pay much attention though :P.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: isp on Sat, 18 December 2010, 18:36:40

I'm in for three.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 18 December 2010, 20:10:55

Tag goes
"LEOPOLD
REALFORCE
ON position adjustable keyboard".
Dial has 0-16 sacales (divided in 4 sectors, colored character looks like Japanese).





Ripster, If you do not understand it, ask it again with a polite attitude.
That kind of behavior pattern is a big problem.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 18 December 2010, 20:35:01

I agree with Ripster. The post is unclear and totally confusing.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: msiegel on Sat, 18 December 2010, 20:39:53

Quote from: ripster;265525

What does it do?

it looks like a force adjustment control :)

*puts on doc brown wig*

of course! this could actually work!!

in a dome based keyboard... make the rubber sheet airtight, and then the more air you pump under the sheet, the higher the actuation force! brilliant!!

*shocks self by poking finger in electrical outlet*

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: Hamblet on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:26:57

from Left to Right

Deep
Little bit deep
Little bit shallow
Shallow

So, have nothing to do with key-weight (key-force, key-pressure whatever) at all.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:30:03

Quote from: Hamblet;265712

from Left to Right

Deep
Little bit deep
Little bit shallow
Shallow

So, have nothing to do with key-weight (key-force, key-pressure whatever) at all.

So what exactly does it do? Lower the plate? Lower the resistance needed to trigger a stroke? I'm confused.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: nanu on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:35:13

I'm guessing you turn that knob (which pictured is hopefully just an ugly prototype or hoax or user mod) and the sensitivity of the switch electronics changes. I'm an electronics noob too but maybe it changes the level of capacitance required to count as a key actuation so then that changes the actuation point (distance you must press a key to count as a keypress)

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: Hamblet on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:40:09

Quote from: sixty;265715

So what exactly does it do? Lower the plate? Lower the resistance needed to trigger a stroke? I'm confused.

Sixty, You act like you do not know Topre at all.

If so, you have to study a little bit. That is not so difficult. Key point is permittivity. That ia all. Nothing more.
If you know Topre already, then, you are acting like Ripster.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: Hamblet on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:44:13

Great !!! nanu

You are the only one.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:46:16

Well you're awfully nice.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:51:15

From my understanding of the topre switch such an effect could be created by raising the height of the PCB by 0-2mm.  This would essentially reduce the throw of the switch by 2-0mm.  I though the capacitative switch requires metal to metal contact to actuate (spring hits the PCB), and the way you would adjust the point of actuaction is to change where the spring is resting.

I think ripster and sixty understand topre switches pretty well, they seem frustrated by all the speculation and lack of concrete information about how this mod works.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Sun, 19 December 2010, 10:59:58

Quote from: Hamblet;265722

Sixty, You act like you do not know Topre at all.

If so, you have to study a little bit. That is not so difficult. Key point is permittivity. That ia all. Nothing more.
If you know Topre already, then, you are acting like Ripster.

I do not know how the Topre actually works (on an electronics level). I'm a MX guy!

I got confused when you said it had nothing to do with the key resistance in your second post.

Now then I would agree that  a slider or knob is a stupid idea. Dipswitches would work out better, or maybe even programmable in software (afterall we have that silly dipswitch 4 for software updates!)

I don't know enough about how a capacitive keyboard works on hardware level, but couldn't this functionality be added with a firmware update? (once its out of prototyping of course).

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: Hamblet on Sun, 19 December 2010, 11:00:05

Quote from: elbowglue;265727

I think ripster and sixty understand topre switches pretty well, they seem frustrated by all the speculation and lack of concrete information about how this mod works.

That means real problem.

I am just one who gave Damn good information. I am not a salse person from Damn Toppure nor who knows everythig nor your mother nor teacher.

That is all I know, I gave you all I know with poto and explanation with several timeS. If you want to know further CONCRETE info, contat Jap company directly.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 19 December 2010, 11:16:16

Hey I'm just trying to be polite and keep in on a reasonable level of discussion.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: donborvio on Sun, 19 December 2010, 11:36:54

Quote from: ripster;265733

Shouldn't say Jap here.  I've corrected people on that multiple times.

Is that a slur? Maybe he is Japanese? I thought the actual slur was the abbreviation of Nippon.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: laden3 on Sun, 19 December 2010, 11:37:52

ok... this will help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_displacement_sensor
I can understand his frustration when you are trying to explain something in English while English isn't your first language.
According to Mensa, 98% of the human population [are idiots] XD [I made this one up]
http://www.mensa.org.uk/iq-levels/

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Sun, 19 December 2010, 11:39:47

Quote from: laden3;265747

ok... this will help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_displacement_sensor

tl;dr ONENESS WITH CUPRUBBER

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: laden3 on Sun, 19 December 2010, 11:47:29

pretty surprised that no one said that the letters on the keyboard looks dirty =D Nihon Banzai?

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Sun, 19 December 2010, 18:20:44

Quote from: Hamblet;265725

Great !!! nanu

You are the only one.

Great. I was wasting my breath ... erm, keystrokes.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: nanu on Sun, 19 December 2010, 19:00:23

Quote from: woody;265895

Great. I was wasting my breath ... erm, keystrokes.

Totally. You can troll more effectively with an avatar.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 19 December 2010, 19:06:46

Actually, considering he said "Jap company", I think it was simply shorthand for Japanese. He wasn't referring to a person.

In other words Ripster, when it's clear that someone is using a foreign language, cut them a little slack, mkay?

With that out of the way, based on the translation, and how topres work, I don't think you could do that with a dipswitch, or with software. Not unless the keyboard had active components constantly monitoring the state, and adjusting based on that input. Basically, you're getting into optimus maximus territory at that point.

This really does just look like a mechanical system to change the throw on the keys. So not pressure, but rather distance.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 19 December 2010, 19:24:46

Except one works, the other is clearly just a slur.

I have no idea what your ethnicity is, but I do know you have a fondness for japanese culture. "Jap" is actually a commonly seen abbreviation, on product labels. I have many products just sitting within arms reach that say things such as "Made in Jap." It's also the common 3 letter abbreviation for Japan.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but many terms you might feel are offensive can often be used inoffensively. ***, for instance, is a common term for cigarette in the UK. In other words, grow up, stop being so sensitive, and take his question as it was intended, rather than being so snotty about it.

And now I'm done. Thanks for so thoroughly destroying any sense of community we have at geekhack, with behavior you mock the residents of KBDmania and OCN for.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 19 December 2010, 19:54:17

So, your obvious racism aside, his english doesn't read like the average Chinese person's. Coupled with his location of GMT+9, I'm more likely to suggest Korean or Japanese. China is GMT+8.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: donborvio on Sun, 19 December 2010, 21:34:11

Quote from: ripster;265910

He musta been a Chink.

In the armor I mean.

Pai Mei would approve.  

(http://www.socaltrailriders.org/gallery/data/1580/pai_mei.jpg)

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: laden3 on Sun, 19 December 2010, 22:16:13

it is probably something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
change in resistance= change in capacitance= change in distance to actuation

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Mon, 20 December 2010, 00:14:14

I have to say I'm not happy with the outcome of this thread. Mocking someone for their English who is trying to contribute information that otherwise would take us a few more months to find out about is not nice. Especially, looking at how I am tolerated by most Korean users, despite posting entirely in English on kbdmania and OTD, I find this thread pretty sad.

A few joking comments can easily turn into nothing but racism. And jokes should be stopped by the time someone feels insulted. Clearly the OP felt very insulted by page two here, yet the crap went on.

And you guys wonder why so many Asians are xenophobic? You are not any better, if not worse.

Thats all I'm still gonna say in this thread. I usually don't post on geekhack very seriously, but I felt it necessary here.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Mon, 20 December 2010, 00:34:32

Quote from: ripster;265998

uh.....

Anyway I have no idea of the nationality of the poster (and couldn't care less) but I think the OP knows enough english to make it a bit clearer or at least provide a link.

My comment was regarding the wikipedia link on the function of a capacitive sensor and really had nothing to do with the OP or what I just criticized in this post.

The OP said the info was from a promotional event held by Topre, so I assume he snapped the pics himself or took them from someone who was at that event. A link in Korean or Japanese would not have helped us out any further.

A few years back my English was way worse than now, so I know how frustrating it can be when things like this happen.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: cbf123 on Mon, 20 December 2010, 10:06:47

I know a bit about electronics.  The spring in a Topre isn't physically completing a circuit but rather as the spring collapses the capacitance for that key increases.  A certain capacitance value is chosen to reflect key actuation, and the collapse of the rubber dome is designed to occur at that amount of capacitance.

It would be really easy to allow the user to vary the capacitance value required to actuate the switch.  I can't see how they'd synchronize the dome collapse though.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Mon, 20 December 2010, 10:15:27

(http://pokato.net/demot/2010-10-04-15-20-12191323157.jpg)

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 20 December 2010, 11:15:11

Quote from: ripster;265994

It's a Pol Pot?

Show Image

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Pol_Pot_in_1977.jpg)

This guy is effing creepy. But, I couldn't stop laughing. It is obvious why people don't like it XD

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: panda-R on Mon, 20 December 2010, 11:49:03

Luckily, I'm only a hungry panda, not a sensitive panda.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: clickclack on Tue, 21 December 2010, 05:51:26

After looking again at the original post and being in the mood to waste some time I gave this "prototype" some thought...

If this is real which is looking more unconvincing by the moment then you would think it would atleast look more polished in its presentation. The pot looks seemingly slapped on with nary a care and eventhough in prototype form Topre is capable of FAR more integration. It screams fake, yet still interesting until...


...I thought about it more-
Adjusting the sensitivity/gain could easily adjust the activation point. The more sensitive the capacitance the quicker it would register the keystroke. Essentially you wouldn't have to press as far down. The less sensitive the further down you would have to press to register the stroke.

Then it hit me...
Of all the devices to put this on, it's almost a pure waste on a Torpe me thinks. I can at times type on a Topre without bottoming out but it's not common. I can however keep from bottoming out on almost any other switch with some ease. This prototype seems like it would be much better suited to a "linear" system. You don't really ride the tactile point on a Topre even if you could change the actuation point (which is clearly doable). A purely physical modification of the switch characteristics seems not only far more practical but more useful on the whole.

To Hamblet-
 Unfortunately in some of your posts your language barrier seems to exercise a fair bit of condescension which seems to conflict with your sincerity. I wouldn't get too caught up in defensive or offensive remarks until you have a better grasp of the language. I know that may sound harsh, but it's sincere.

=)

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: cbf123 on Tue, 21 December 2010, 13:11:14

Clearly, what we really need is a keyboard where each key is a linear motor.  This would allow for on-the-fly adjustment of spring rate, activation point, tactility, force curve, etc.

You could switch on the fly from clicky/tactile/light/variable for typing, to linear/heavy/uniform for gaming.

They'd make Topre boards look positively cheap, though.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:53:17

I think it would be cheaper and more beneficial if they just started churning out beam spring boards again.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Thu, 23 December 2010, 01:02:06

I had contacted my English speaking contact at Topre when this was first posted to find out a bit more. Here is what he wrote back today:

Quote

Our keyboads full travel length has 4mm and our standard keyboards switch
enter the character when you press down the keys approx 0.5mm.
Actually, we are able to change this travel length freely by changing resistance.

From our experience people who type very very fast, they do not press the key.
They just touch the key to enter the characters.
It means for fast typist it is better to set the switching point less than 0.5mm.

On the other hand, people who are used to playing game with Membrane or Mechanical switch.
They prefer to feel the switching point when they press down the key to nearly 4mm travel length.

We consider both characteristic and made a keyboard which is adjustable to change the travel length.

If you turn the knob to left, side switching point gets close to 4mm.
If you turn the knob to right side, the switching point gets close to 0mm

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Thu, 23 December 2010, 01:37:46

Quote from: ripster;267640

I definitely cry foul at that .5mm number.  I just plugged in my RealForce and compared it to a Cherry Brown Filco.  It is at or BELOW the 2mm  mark.

Also I dug up this chart from Silencium on a Realforce 106.

Show Image

(http://web.archive.org/web/20050923170743/www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/gif/rf106key2.gif)

I wonder if he meant inches or something. I'll ask again in my next mail.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Thu, 23 December 2010, 02:15:18

He also talks about "resistance", and he means the electrical one, not mechanical.
I still win, where's my beer?

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Thu, 23 December 2010, 08:18:08

Quote from: woody;267656

He also talks about "resistance", and he means the electrical one, not mechanical.
I still win, where's my beer?

How about some MY boards instead of a beer?

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Thu, 23 December 2010, 08:22:33

Quote from: sixty;267725

How about some MY boards instead of a beer?

If you mean those boards, they're not MY type of boards. Although some of YOUR boards are interesting.
I always accept Erdinger hefeweizen.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: sixty on Thu, 23 December 2010, 08:26:54

When I was living in Japan (back in like 2003), people kept asking me if I was Australian. And then were pretty relieved to find out I was "only" German. It seems everyone in Japan hated Australians.

Some lady told me they bully all the locals and get drunk all the time. Must be all that rough Kangaroo meat.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 23 December 2010, 12:36:59

Quote from: woody;267728

I always accept Erdinger hefeweizen.

Mmm. Erdinger is good I had it last time I was in Italy. Haven't been able to find it in the states though.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: gun_sl1nger on Thu, 23 December 2010, 13:02:36

Quote from: ripster;267737

Australians DO get drunk all the time!

But they do have the wickedest sense of humor (unlike Germans).  

Meet Major General Peter Cosgrove (http://i.imgur.com/zZ3fC.png) (a tiny bit NSFW)

That's some racist **** right there Rip. I am Australian and I don't call Americans right wing, Christian puritanical warmongers..............

Often.

You are right though. I hate the typical Australian tourist. They DO drink too much and have no respect for the country/culture they visit and have a terribly thick "strine" accent.

Just remember though. We are the descendants of British criminals deported in the 18th century and over 90% of the worlds most poisonous animals live on our island continent.

EDIT:
www.hoax-slayer.com/cosgrove-female-interviewer.shtml

Tut tut Rip.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: gun_sl1nger on Thu, 23 December 2010, 13:18:43

Quote from: ripster;267894

I'm only backing up Sixty.

Germans are notorious for trying to put their towels out early in the morning at the Bali Beaches to get the best spot.  Australians are too hungover to even think of it.

Bali. The Cancun for Australians. The radio interviews a hoax by the way. Apologies for the typing I am using a phone.

Have you been to Australia? You would probably like it.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: woody on Thu, 23 December 2010, 13:34:58

Hey, nice pets, Ripster. When you get to the "Easy Pretty Women" science research, do give me a call - I'll be your host around here.

Title: Topre, Not in the market yet.
Post by: gun_sl1nger on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:55:41

Quote from: ripster;267904

I've been to Australia multiple times.   Last time locked in a van with Australian scientists and others from around the world.

And yes, they of course got smashed in the motel room next to me and kept me up all night.  They were Australian!!

Damn country.  Can't even sit on a log without some critter trying to kill you.

Show Image

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/5285819409_a044338a39_z.jpg)

P.S. For others who haven't visited Australia you quickly get used to being upside down.

Don't you mean right way up? We are 10 hours into the future you know. You could learn a lot from us.