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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dacm on Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:47:33

Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: dacm on Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:47:33
I like the idea of J-shaped return keys. To me they represent the best of both worlds of ANSI & ISO layouts. (Though they do often lead to miniature backspace keys. :-( ) I also remember using them at some point in the past, and liking them.

Now my problem is that (AFAIK) no modern mechanical board (that is good for typing) has them. So I'm wondering if I could mod a board to provide one.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this? I was thinking that it should be possible if I could source a return key from a Model F AT:

(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2010/nov02/016.jpg)

But I have no clue where to find one. :-( (Except buying an entire Model F!) Anyone got any ideas? Is my idea completely brain dead in the first place? (I'd probably be modding a UK layout Model M or Unicomp.)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Minskleip on Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:53:40
I think Steelseries has it.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Pylon on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:04:00
As do a ton of Alps boards, both old ones, and new ones like the KB-6600 and the Avant Prime.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Pylon on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:06:11
It also might be possible to modify a Unicomp or a Model M to a large enter key, if you can manage to obtain a J-shaped enter (I'm not aware of any that were made).

See:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7046
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Zen on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:10:40
Quote from: Minskleip;268027
I think Steelseries has it.


Indeed they do :

(http://i.imgur.com/6h2EQ.jpg)

I also like it, but it's a pain if you want to swap keycaps...
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Minskleip on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:13:04
The boards at 5k177 has it too http://5k177.com/more/
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: dacm on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:35:38
Quote from: Zen;268034
Indeed they do :

I also like it, but it's a pain if you want to swap keycaps...


Steelseries is Cherry Blacks right?

Are they different heights to Filcos? (I have a majestouch in addition to a model m.) I'd imagine it would be quite hard to change the shape of keys on top of MX switches anyway. (As I guess you were hinting at.)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Zen on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:45:15
Yes, they use Blacks .
Not sure about the height compared to Filco, but the caps are quite 'tall' .
I have 3 different makes of keycaps mounted on my G6v2 right now, I'll
post some photos tomorrow when the lighting is better so you can see the problem ..
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Sam on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:50:05
The old IBM 122-key terminal boards have a somewhat J-shaped Enter.  It's basically a vertical Enter with a little nub on the left.  Some of these boards can be interfaced to modern PC's.  Not sure if that little nub helps you any though.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:56:27
The 122-key has a standard ISO-style enter.

@OP: There's no shortage of modern mech keyboards (particularly from Asia) that have these. None of them have anything on the Model F in your pic.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:04:32
But the ISO enter key is retarded and a pain to use. I hope inverted L/J-shaped enter keys take over.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Sam on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:10:16
The inverted-L Enters are very common in Korea.  All the Samsung boards I've seen have these, although they're all rubber dome.  So they are somewhat standard for some people.  I actually like them myself, but perhaps that's because I like the IBM AT board.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Milquetoast on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:13:30
Whatever name you call them, L shaped enter keys are a tool of the Devil.

If we were meant to press giant enter keys, we would have evolved/been created with bulbous, clublike pinky fingers.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:15:19
But remember, a large Enter key can be pressed in many places, conforming to many peoples' typing  habits as long as there isn't the tine Backspace key.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:18:28
Quote from: Milquetoast;268077
Whatever name you call them, L shaped enter keys are a tool of the Devil.

If we were meant to press giant enter keys, we would have evolved/been created with bulbous, clublike pinky fingers.


(http://tinalewisrowe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ibm-correcting-selectric-iii-red.jpg)

?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: quadibloc on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:20:43
That is the trouble. The gain from the larger Enter key is far outweighed by the loss from a backspace key that is hard to reach. (And the Steelseries keyboard illustrated instead has a hard-to-reach right-hand Shift key.)

The ANSI keyboard is good, but a larger Enter key would be even better, if it were achieved without disturbing any of the other important keys. There are such keyboards, ones which move |\ to the right of the right-hand shift key; a multimedia keyboard from Best Buy was an example of that.

However, the extra part added to the Enter key is far away, so it's not that important. An ISO style Enter, but moved over one key to the left, would be the ideal. But that is not available as far as I know, and since that arrangement loses the ability to put {[ immediately to the left of }], it's not surprising that it isn't.

Ah, I see that while I was typing, someone posted a photo of the Selectric I, with the one true Enter key.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:34:53
Personally, I think the best arrangement would be to have a backwards-L enter, and to shorten the length of right shift, and place the \| key beside right shift.

European Samsung netbooks move the extra key on the ISO layout from beside left shift, to beside right shift.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_miDNwh2mH50/ScApbU16HsI/AAAAAAAAAA8/AMDAAV-0Juw/s400/samsungnc10ukkeyboard.jpg)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: dacm on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:44:08
After reading another thread I'm starting to think that the best solution would be to move the letter keys closer to an ISO return key. That way you still have vertical return loveliness but with less pinky travel when touch-typing.

As for a larger return key ruining the layout elsewhere, I was initially intending to lose a key rather than reduce the size of another important key.

Oh, and I think this idea that `small pinky => small return key' is completely daft. It's about the accuracy of your fingers not their size. I know I'm less accurate with my pinky so it's nice to have a wide margin for error. (Also vertical return is lovely for non-touch-typing situations too I find.)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:46:44
My solution--Have a large Enter key and split the right Shift key with Shift and \|.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Milquetoast on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:10:19
Quote from: ch_123;268081
Show Image
(http://tinalewisrowe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ibm-correcting-selectric-iii-red.jpg)


?


Well, it hasn't got an L-shaped enter key, but it is red, which is the color of the devil. I'd suggest killing it with fire, but I suspect that thing isn't killable.

Quote from: quadibloc;268084
There are such keyboards, ones which move |\ to the right of the right-hand shift key; a multimedia keyboard from Best Buy was an example of that.


That is either a tool of the devil, or a communist plot. I'm not sure which. It certainly isn't a layout designed by a Unix user.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: taswyn on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:24:44
Personally I don't like them, I feel like the larger key often leads to stability issues on many keyboards I've tried that use them. Maybe some boards have better stabilizers/switch placement than others for those giant return keys, though, and I've only tried boards where the key was crappily stabilized, or had suffered some damage/poor wear? The only time I've used anything with them were old terminal style keyboards, so it could entirely just be that.

edit: somehow I missed the second page. I blame the cold >.< That typewriter is hypnotic and now I want one D: random extra thought: there should be a crusade to returning to LF + RT as separate keys instead of this newfangled enter key business!
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 24 December 2010, 00:41:16
i noticed that all the POS keyboards at the stores i went to for xmas shopping had inverted L's. (aside from the computer/dell/pos quietkey computers)
nike had their own branded pos keyboard, looked like a 58 xkey. (but of course nicer looking the xkeys are dog ugly)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Zen on Fri, 24 December 2010, 05:03:57
(http://i.imgur.com/qwx95.jpg)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 24 December 2010, 08:38:30
Enter keys this large are for clumsy morons.  Please don't make manufacturers think this is desirable.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 24 December 2010, 11:04:55
I feel the same way about double-width backspaces, and full sized left shifts.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:06:21
Quote
Personally I don't like them, I feel like the larger key often leads to stability issues on many keyboards I've tried that use them.

Absolutely the same problem I have with them. ISO and ANSI style enter keys are simple to stabilize, whilst many J-shaped enter keys have friction issues due to poorly placed stabilizers.

J-shaped and vertical (iso) enter keys always struck me as strange. The ANSI enter key is the easiest to reach, and has the advantage of a large backspace.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:11:07
As discussed above, a backward-L enter and a large backspace are not mutually exclusive.

I think the location of \| on US layout keyboards isn't completely ideal for people who do programming. Between /? and Right Shift is the best one I've seen.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 24 December 2010, 15:09:58
In non-English European layouts, it is the (US) + and ]keys that don't require to be accessible with the correct hand position. They are used only to add diacritic marks to other characters which is something that I don't think that people do very often, not even when writing French.
The (US) \ key is used for single quote, asterix, hash, tilde (in different layouts) and therefore very important for programming.
Brackets and braces are acquired with Alt Gr and the numbers 7 to 0. I think that with the addition of the Windows keys, the move of Alt Gr slightly to the left only improved its reachability, making it easier to type in this layout: I press it with my thumb!

BTW, in the UK English layout (which is very much like the US ANSI layout but with a vertical Enter key), the \ key is between (short) left Shift and Z.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Ekaros on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:08:08
\ | key in Ansi is also quite idiotic... I mean it's pretty standard alpha-key, but still it has to be special size? What's the point?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: msiegel on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:09:50
same reason the right shift key is incredibly freakin huge :)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Pylon on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:22:30
Well, some people use right shift heavily...I know some people that use it exclusively.

As for me, I probably can't tolerate ISO because the left shift is tiny. And I hit left shift by the very left edge. (I never use right shift)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: msiegel on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:47:20
Quote from: Pylon;268882
some people use right shift heavily


aw, it's as long as an aircraft carrier! who uses the right edge of that thing?? :)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: flashstar on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:49:54
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

(http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/UltraT.jpg)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Ekaros on Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:05:45
Quote from: flashstar;268890
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

Show Image
(http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/UltraT.jpg)


Hmm, one more improvement, just to reach the 105 keys, why not place <> (one taking room from left shift) and take some space from Caps Lock... Only issue is that standard layout there isn't too much room in it... In the end there is just too many special characters...
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:17:57
Quote from: flashstar;268890
Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?
I think it's a good layout. Even <> is present, between the left-hand Ctrl and Alt. The problem, of course, is that this now takes up space that is needed for the Windows key!
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Ekaros on Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:52:10
Quote from: quadibloc;268898
I think it's a good layout. Even <> is present, between the left-hand Ctrl and Alt. The problem, of course, is that this now takes up space that is needed for the Windows key!


I completely missed that one there... Hmm, maybe need just to take room from space?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: msiegel on Sat, 25 December 2010, 21:08:02
space, the final frontier... plennnty of room to carve out some keys :)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: flashstar on Sat, 25 December 2010, 23:40:07
Quote from: Ekaros;268905
I completely missed that one there... Hmm, maybe need just to take room from space?


Or just replace the bottom right splat (*) key with a windows key?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Ekaros on Sun, 26 December 2010, 04:53:00
Quote from: flashstar;268933
Or just replace the bottom right splat (*) key with a windows key?


Hmm, never got around those keys, does Windows differentiate between two windows keys? And I have used the "meta" even less...
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ktkr on Sun, 26 December 2010, 05:11:17
Quote from: Ekaros;268876
\ | key in Ansi is also quite idiotic... I mean it's pretty standard alpha-key, but still it has to be special size? What's the point?


Agreed, but incidentally it makes the best backspace key ever. Thank you, retarded engineers.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 05:56:20
Quote from: flashstar;268890
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?


My favorite layout is the apple standard keyboard from the 68k mac era, but probably only because I used it so much.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Apple_(Standard)_Keyboard_M0116.jpg)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:29:44
I'm not a fan of the placement of the arrow keys there.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:53:09
What a weird layout. If you all remember, the control key did pretty much nothing in Mac OS (and still doesn't, outside of Terminal). Yet, the control key is pretty large and placed in a favourable position.

My first computer was a BBC Micro, with its own bizarre arrow key arrangement (left/right above, up/down on the line below). I think I got the hang of them, although games never used the arrow keys, instead preferring left/right on one hand (e.g. A/Z), and up/down on the other (e.g. ,/.), a pattern that has sadly never come back.

However, after getting a PC, followed later by a Mac, I could have hacked at the throat (with the keyboard) of whoever came up with such a retarded arrow key layout. Probably one of Steve Jobs's more loopy moments, like prohibiting 3.5" floppy drives and expansion card slots.

Also, my keyboard, same layout as that, was one of the most abhorrent rubberdomes ever to see the light of day (second only to the suicide-or-homicide-inducing PowerBook 150 keyboard), whereas the one depicted above looks like one of the delectable ALPS models that I wish I'd had instead.

(Seriously, I should auction off my PowerBook 150 keyboard as a horror museum piece for keyboard nerds as it really is that bad.)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:56:20
Quote from: msiegel;268889
aw, it's as long as an aircraft carrier! who uses the right edge of that thing?? :)

I press the Right Shift key with my right pinky together with keys on the right side of the keyboard to get symbols. That is the only use I have for that key.
I used to press the very right tip of it before I got used to keyboards that had a shorter key (Cherry MX-1800, MX-11800).

Quote from: flashstar;268890
Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

There is no such thing as an ultimate layout. It does not work well with many keymaps that use the \ key for more important symbols. Placing it to the left of Right Shift would be better for those.

Quote from: Ekaros;268895
,..  take some space from Caps Lock...

I have often thought the same thing myself. Why are there so many keys to the right of my right pinky, but so few keys to the left of my left pinky?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: woody on Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:15:59
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269048
What a weird layout.

Just a legacy from Apple IIgs.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:21:51
Quote from: woody;269064
Just a legacy from Apple IIgs.


Thank goodness when IBM introduced the Model M they threw legacy layouts out the window, ditto the Apple Extended keyboard. Legacy is not an excuse, unless you're Raymond Chen, and hacking at his throat with a Model M would be quite entertaining.

The problem with modern keyboards is that people have their heads in the clouds and their ankles mired in legacy, so they just swap enough keys to be a royal nuisance without actually accomplishing anything. However, the HHKB has to be commended for being a genuine leap. The left-handed keyboard is also very interesting, and I would be tempted to try one if I had a desk that supported left-fluting keyboard, and it didn't come only with MX blacks.

(Keyboards are a bit like flutes, in that your hands go at one end and they extend in an ungainly manner miles off in the other direction. My desk doesn't have anything to support a keyboard that goes off to the left though.)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:37:38
They moved Caps Lock to where Control once was to keep people used to typewriters happy.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 26 December 2010, 10:12:56
Quote from: bladamson;268979
My favorite layout is the apple standard keyboard from the 68k mac era, but probably only because I used it so much.
I think it's an excellent design. The ESC key is handy, the Control key is in its traditional position for ASCII keyboards, and the two less-used printable character keys are out of the way.

The cursor keys probably would not stay where they are in a keyboard designed for use with a current PC, but their placement is reasonable.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 10:14:31
Quote from: quadibloc;269086
I think it's an excellent design. The ESC key is handy, the Control key is in its traditional position for ASCII keyboards ...


Pray tell, what would you do with the control key on a Macintosh?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 10:37:23
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269088
Pray tell, what would you do with the control key on a Macintosh?


They're great for Debian/PPC. :P
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 11:02:13
Quote from: bladamson;269096
They're great for Debian/PPC. :P


The really great thing about PPC Linux is that it succeeded in being more unstable and more unreliable than Mac OS 9. Also, when I upped my StarMax from 64 to 144 MB, Mac OS 9 performance shot up accordingly, but Yellow Dog Linux ground to a halt instead, which was the point where I threw in the towel.

I did try Debian first, but couldn't do anything because the display came up corrupt (both text *and* graphical modes); this was after the install floppies also being defective (prompted for disc 2 then locked up) and having to find an obscure workaround version. And I had to go through the whole installation with a corrupt font, and when the X11 login screen appeared it was so scrambled it completely unusable.

Yellow Dog had the same broken Mach64VT video driver, but after some hacking around I did at least get to the point where it "only" sprayed the screen with pink and orange slime everywhere I moved the mouse cursor (and in fact many other screen updates). Corrupt and barely legible text in simulated hardware text mode was still a standard feature, as was the inability to play audio without skipping, or to wavemix without ARTS, which would crash sometimes and kill all your audio completely. Apple System 7 certainly allowed multiple applications to play audio at once, something that Microsoft were unable to implement. I still get hit by random programs that use the waveout API and alter the volume, meaning that my sound level is wrong despite the volume control having not been changed (the trick is to remember to investigate the Wave volume level, not the master, when waveout has been meddling).

Basic apps like Licq just went nuts and crashed. Updated the kernel to work around some other nightmare, and the serial port just vanished off the system. Couldn't dial up my Internet connection any more because Linux forgot that I had a serial port. (Thankfully solved by mkdev'ing a new one, i whatever manner that could possibly make sense.)

Horrifying mess, I ran screaming back to Mac OS.

The problem with Mac OS 9 is that it crashed randomly and unpredictably. The problem with PPC Linux is that it crashed all the time.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 11:33:55
Hm, weird!  An 8500/120 with a g3 card running Debian was my main machine for a long long time, until I asked the apple dealer for a g4 sawtooth card for it and they laughed at me and tried to sell me an intel mac (so I bought a PC instead). -_-'  Was a nice box.  I was able to run OS9 at the same time on another VT and use most of my old mac software without rebooting.  I wasn't able to reliably run Sid on it like I was able to on the PC, but as long as I stuck with the latest stable distro and pinned a few things out of Sid, it was just fine.

Biggest annoyance was that mine had the buggy firmware, so I had to hack the floppy linux/ppc bootloader into a hard drive loader, and chain boot off of a tiny System 7 partition.  Lol.

Yea, System 7 and earlier didn't have any concept of protected memory (and I'm going to assume this carried over into 8 and 9), so buggy apps could buffer overflow all over the OS.  Nutty. X_x
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 15:19:01
Quote from: bladamson;269116
Yea, System 7 and earlier didn't have any concept of protected memory (and I'm going to assume this carried over into 8 and 9), so buggy apps could buffer overflow all over the OS.  Nutty. X_x


It was a little more complicated than that. The various APIs had insufficient sanity checking, so you could cause the system to barf by asking for a negative scroll bar position or the IP of a DNS name where any segment was > 127 characters. It's claimed to be impossible to crash Windows NT by feeding bad parameters to any API call and Mark Russinovich even wrote a program to feed an endless stream of rubbish to Windows to prove it.

You only need to look at Mac OS 9 wrong and it trips over itself and dies. This I find to be a far more serious flaw than a memory model that owes its flawed nature to backwards compatibility.

Still, I love Mac OS 9 dearly and it pains me greatly that people never really learnt from it, or from RISC OS. Like Vader, there is a lot of good in Mac OS 9 waiting to be freed, and most of it never seemed to make it across to Mac OS X.

If my PC dies, I'm going to have a hard choice deciding what OS to go with. At least if I stick with Windows or go Linux I can keep my FILCO :)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 15:31:43
What was good about OS 9? I've heard it described as terrible by multiple people, including some serious Mac fanboys.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:01:02
(Warning: long rant, but you did ask, so you shall receive ... ;-) Some people just never learn)

My favourite was System 7, because it was still a simple and honest system, before it suffered the inevitable overcomplexity of any modern OS.

A random list of things I like about Mac OS (working or broken, present or absent from Mac OS X, Linux and Windows), bearing in mind I've barely used it in two years: type and creator codes and file type autoregistration (BNDL/FREF) [4], the extension and URL mapping database [1], Apple Events [2] and AppleScript [3], the custom icon facility and icon labelling, the global menu bar, the Control Strip, the global context menu system, the way that both programs and system extensions are packaged inside single files (even my NIC driver is one single file with an appropriate name and icon, instead of heaps of unreco~1.ble files), the ability to switch keyboard layout across the whole system without programs vetoing or ignoring the change and the layout flapping back and forth as you switch application, the volume-centric storage model, being able to rename files that are open and watch the program that opened them update accordingly, being told by the OS exactly which program has locked a file on a volume you're trying to eject or that you're trying to empty from the trash (you can trash files that are in use, just not empty the trash), having a Temporary Items folder that is automatically emptied during boot so you don't ever get gigabytes of garbage build up in there ...

No system is wholly good or wholly bad, and what pains me about Mac OS 9 is that nerds slam it for having no memory protection, and no command line, and treat it like it's a leper that also has the plague. Windows people get put off by insufferable Mac devotees (thankfully I grew out of that phase!) Every other innovation and feature is conveniently forgotten by people who just won't give it a chance.

Hell, I gave Linux a chance, but it let me down :P I kept flogging its dead horse until my memory upgrade in my StarMax 4000/200 caused it to run like it had no CPU cache, and I decided I couldn't take it any more. I was sick of every last single thing crashing, breaking, and self-destructing. I use Linux (Debian and Ubuntu) for servers at work, command-line only (most don't have X11 installed at all) and they're enough of a headache :P

There are a lot of systems that we can still learn from, Mac OS just happens to have scraped on by. AmigaOS as I understand it had some great innovations, and RISC OS (http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/) did also.

[1] You'll appreciate it a lot more when you look up Simple MAPI and see how that works
[2] Compare this with the mess that is Windows's various attempts at being equivalent; D-Bus seems to have promise. Also, on a Mac, you don't get this nonsense of opening several files at once and having the shell spawning one process for every file, which may co-operate and marshall their efforts, get confused (Winamp), or just explode (IcoFX). Application capability and requirement manifests (like the Mac's SIZE resource) could help here by instructing the shell how to handle multiple files as one of the flags.
[3] AppleScript would have single-handedly prevented macro viruses because utility scripts live outside of documents, but Microsoft had to refuse to learn from Apple's success (I think WordBasic may have come first in MS-DOS but the mind-blowing mess that is VBA, especially in Outlook, could have been completely avoided, and Outlook could be as scriptable in Windows today as Outlook Express was on the Mac)
[4] I love how Windows suggests Photoshop to open files that Photoshop can't open, to which Photoshop turns around and tells you to get lost, because Windows doesn't have any way to understand what any particular application is capable of. It has very primitive file type mapping but that relies on programs not treading all over each other!
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:05:47
oh, sorry, were were talking about 'J' shaped return keys ...

Me? I think they're daft. Take up far too much space for nothing. I don't mind L-shaped ones (as in the UK) as they allow one extra key on the keyboard and are not too large or too small, and I don't dislike US-style horizontal ones. I started out with one, after all, on my BBC Micro keyboard. Note the bizarre arrow key cluster:

(http://telcontar.net/store/hosted/fora/BBC-Model-B-keyboard.jpg)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:28:14
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269197
My favourite was System 7,


Same here.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: woody on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:32:52
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269197
Hell, I gave Linux a chance, but it let me down :P

How could a flexible kernel let you down?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:34:48
Quote from: woody;269209
How could a flexible kernel let you down?


Scroll up to post 53.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:42:50
Linux on things other than standard (read x86) hardware produces varied results.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: woody on Sun, 26 December 2010, 16:43:31
You didn't get it - Linux is just an over-flexible kernel. With some of the drivers as good as their developers and limited testers could get them. The rest is the usual cross-platform GNU, X and what not.

It's like saying "I tried a woman, and I think they're not worth".

Hope you find your OS nirvana.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 26 December 2010, 17:19:38
Quote from: woody;269214
It's like saying "I tried a woman, and I think they're not worth".


I can easily see myself coming to that conclusion; thus far, I still don't know what relationships are supposed to be about, and the odds of finding anything meaningful from them seems to be ever diminishing.

Quote from: woody;269214
You didn't get it - Linux is just an over-flexible kernel. With some of the drivers as good as their developers and limited testers could get them.


My computer was a Motorola StarMax 4000/200 200 MHz PPC 604e (Apple Tanzania based clone), with an ATI Mach64VT onboard video adapter (still have that machine, right behind me). Debian had completely useless video drivers. Yellow Dog (basically Red Hat for PPC) had completely useless video drivers. I had no LAN, no Ethernet in the Mac at all (only fitted that when I got cable and needed either USB or Ethernet to use a cable modem and you got neither with a 1997 clone) and I just wanted something that worked. I tried two Linux distros, changed the kernel, larked around while all my programs crashed around me (I think it was Linux where a Trillian-using friend's IMs also crashed Licq), never got anything resembling decent audio, and finally gave up when adding RAM ran it into the ground.

I knew too little about Linux to piece anything together, I knew nothing about wired networking or any other means of getting another PC online via a 56k modem, and since I already had a working computer with a lot of great software and all my work on it, it was easier to return to something that worked than try to dredge the last remnants of life from PPC Linux.

I gave it a chance, but it's too hard to learn from a dung pile, especially on a dual-boot system where I can't actually do any work while I'm in Linux (since no-one bothered with anything resembling meaningful HFS+ support and I had no access to my main partition).
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Tue, 28 December 2010, 06:54:40
Quote from: dacm;268023
I like the idea of J-shaped return keys. To me they represent the best of both worlds of ANSI & ISO layouts. (Though they do often lead to miniature backspace keys. :-( ) I also remember using them at some point in the past, and liking them. Now my problem is that (AFAIK) no modern mechanical board (that is good for typing) has them. So I'm wondering if I could mod a board to provide one. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this? But I have no clue where to find one. :-( (Except buying an entire Model F!) Anyone got any ideas? Is my idea completely brain dead in the first place? (I'd probably be modding a UK layout Model M or Unicomp.)

The 122 key terminal boards have a large Enter key. I used one on my unfinished 'mini mod':
(http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/IMAG0056_small.jpg)

Two sides to this with a Model M: on the plus side you don't have to use the white insert on the pipe-slash key above the Enter key; the terminal key ('Field Exit') doesn't have a pin into the upper barrel. So, you can leave the existing hammer and spring alone. On the negative side, you're going to have to use the unused, unfilled barrel between the left Shift and the 'Z' key for the pipe-slash; that requires pulling they keyboard apart and doing the 'bolt mod', as well as going to a single key 'Shift'.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: quadibloc on Tue, 28 December 2010, 10:36:43
Quote from: woody;269214
You didn't get it - Linux is just an over-flexible kernel.
Any hardware I am likely to find for a PC is going to have a driver for Microsoft Windows, and any software belonging to certain categories is likely to be available for Microsoft Windows.

There are, though, other types of software that are more likely to be available for Linux. So it depends on what you want to use your computer for.

The fact that "Linux is just an over-flexible kernel" might be important in a theoretical sense - hey, if I don't like a particular Linux distro, I can write whatever it's missing - but for most people, the question is: is Linux part of the shortest path from point A (bare iron) to point B (running desired applications).
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: woody on Tue, 28 December 2010, 10:45:29
The distinction I make is, that when one just says "Linux", he/she is merely addressing the kernel, and many don't have the foggiest idea what it is really about.
Anything outside this is the distribution, it's built-in management and all the GNU and non-GNU stuff in it, and it should be properly indicated like "I tried Bloody Complex Linux v0.1 and have this opinion ...".

Saying "I tried Linux" is meaningless, hence the woman example. That was my point.

Happy OS hunting.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: dacm on Thu, 30 December 2010, 16:18:30
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;269766
The 122 key terminal boards have a large Enter key. I used one on my unfinished 'mini mod':
Show Image
(http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/IMAG0056_small.jpg)


That's just an ISO return key isn't it? I was thinking more of the Giant things like you get on some Model Fs.

BTW, where did you get hold of those unusual keys? I'm thinking of doing something like this when I do my nut & bolt job, but I'll at least need an extra normal sized keycap & stem and an extra caps-lock size key. - Unicomp?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 30 December 2010, 16:52:28
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-sQ6TN93LvU/TFhE2vBrzxI/AAAAAAAAA80/yhtpn3Ie4DU/s800/DolchAT.jpg)
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: BigBrother on Sat, 02 April 2011, 02:54:44
Quote from: Soarer;270838
Show Image
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-sQ6TN93LvU/TFhE2vBrzxI/AAAAAAAAA80/yhtpn3Ie4DU/s800/DolchAT.jpg)
i see 'dolch'
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: What is X? on Sat, 02 April 2011, 04:19:41
Quote from: flashstar;268890
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

Show Image
(http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/UltraT.jpg)


Epic success. The keyboard i've used for most of my life had that layout and it was epic.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: cometbus on Sat, 02 April 2011, 12:03:09
Even though this thread has been brought back from the dead, still had to say... The "bulbous J" enter was my main reason for not getting a Steelseries, and spending $75+, with shipping, more on a Filco (not that I regret it now).

Like previously stated, I can't stand the tiny backspace, as well as just aesthetics... I like my keyboards pretty! A giant enter key like that throws the whole thing off, imho. :nono:
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: RiGS on Sat, 02 April 2011, 17:47:54
That backspace looks standard to me.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: RiGS on Sat, 02 April 2011, 17:51:36
Did Cherry ever make a doubleshot BiGAss enter?
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 02 April 2011, 21:10:13
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269066
Thank goodness when IBM introduced the Model M they threw legacy layouts out the window, ditto the Apple Extended keyboard. Legacy is not an excuse, unless you're Raymond Chen, and hacking at his throat with a Model M would be quite entertaining.

The problem with modern keyboards is that people have their heads in the clouds and their ankles mired in legacy, so they just swap enough keys to be a royal nuisance without actually accomplishing anything. However, the HHKB has to be commended for being a genuine leap. The left-handed keyboard is also very interesting, and I would be tempted to try one if I had a desk that supported left-fluting keyboard, and it didn't come only with MX blacks.


Except it wasn't done for legacy reasons, it was done for cost-saving reasons. My understanding is that that keyboard (which came out one year after the IIGS keyboard in question) is internally the same, and has the same layout as the IIGS keyboard, just with a bigger case to make it look like it went to a more powerful computer. Not only that, but Apple intended for all ADB-equipped computers to share all ADB peripherals, so you could buy an Apple Extended Keyboard for your IIGS, or use someone's ADB Keyboard on your Mac II, or anything in between. Therefore, that keyboard could reasonably be expected to be used on a IIGS if a user had a keyboard failure or something.
Title: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Ascaii on Sun, 03 April 2011, 00:16:52
i have a few mechs with these:

I do like them, but then I'm coming from ISO enter so it isn't too big of a jump.
Typing on those boards still isn'T as easy as on the cherry boards with iso enter.
(http://deskthority.net/download/file.php?id=81)
(http://deskthority.net/download/file.php?id=80)
Title: Re: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: ellhooryver on Wed, 26 June 2013, 00:13:53
I modify 101 and 104-key Model M's to 100- and 103-key boards with large J-shaped (or L-shaped, if you prefer) Enter keys. There are three ways to get the key:

1) I got a large Enter key from a Model F 84-key AT keyboard from Unicomp. They had one laying around and sold it to me for $10 (they had only that one). It's not a direct fit to a Model M board since, instead of a round post, it has a rectangular one and was used with wire bales for stability. The post has to be shaved down to fint into the white insert.
2) Get the same key printed "C Rtn" (Carriage Return) in khaki-tan or in off-white from an IBM Wheelwriter 3, if you can find an old broken one for parts cheap (I got one for $20). This key is a direct fit for the Model M with no modifications required.
3) Buy a new or used Keytronic E03601 series keyboard in "beige" or black for under $20 and modify the Enter key with IBM buckling spring key stems. I have done five of these. The only difference is that Keytronic keys are etch-printed ABS rather than dye-sublimated PBT.

I will post photos of these modifications and my finished keyboards in the near future, with instructions on modding the Keytronic keys for IBM (the shape and size of the Keytronic E03600 and E03601 are virtually identical to IBM bukling spring keys).

To use the large Enter key, you must remove the buckling spring from the |\ key above the Enter key. You also need to download two free utilities: 1) SharpKeys and 2) Numlocker. Use Numlocker to set Num Lock to always ON and Scroll Lock to Always OFF (why are these needed for a 101- or 104-key board that has separate scroll and number pads?? It's an archaic holdover from early 83- and 84-key Model F boards  without separate scrolling and number pads).  Then use SharpKeys to easily remap Num Lock to '+=', '|\' to OFF, then '=+' to '|\'. Numlocker writes these changes to the registry and makes the change next time you restart or logoff and relog.  Voila!  A 100- or 103-key Model M board with large Enter key! That large Enter key was the only thing I liked about the 84-key Model F AT keyboard.



Title: Re: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 26 June 2013, 13:52:25
Quote from: ellhooryver on Wed, 26 June 2013, 00:13:53
That large Enter key was the only thing I liked about the 84-key Model F AT keyboard.

Wow.

I have a bigass Enter key from a Wheelwriter that I would sell if somebody wanted it for a project like this, and I would gladly trade the bigass Enter and a small \| for your ANSI versions.
Title: Re: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 27 June 2013, 00:02:20
Holy thread bump, Batman!

I love ALPS but hate the big-ass Enter that seemed to be on just about every one of the ALPS boards. BAE means the backslash key has to be located somewhere strange and nonstandard. When you work in DOS, then in Windows, backslash is a constant companion, so having it in different places on different boards is just way annoying.
Title: Re: J-Shaped Return Keys
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 27 June 2013, 07:19:14
Quote from: Techno Trousers on Thu, 27 June 2013, 00:02:20
When you work in DOS, then in Windows, backslash is a constant companion, so having it in different places on different boards is just way annoying.

What I can't take is the small Backspace. I use it a lot, and probably always hit the left edge, because I always miss the small one.