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geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:16:46

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:16:46

IBM Model F keyboard (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Clicky-Keyboard-/320631675813?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4aa7231ba5)

I'm assuming it is XT even though it says AT, but is there any way to tell? Cause I would love to have a Model F...

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:19:07

83 keys = XT

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:25:11

Hey, if you actually understood what I was saying in that post you would have realized that I was calling myself a troll... So ┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:31:53

Trolling is bad, but hypocrisy is worse...

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:44:03

Quote from: msiegel;268113

83 keys = XT

Thank you msiegel for giving me this imformation without being a complete ass like Ripster... It was greatly appreciated.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 24 December 2010, 04:23:59

Looks like MW's ***** is obediently taking part in the petty, and decidedly boring anti-Ripster *****ing.

Atta' boy. Have a biscuit.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: bladamson on Fri, 24 December 2010, 04:34:32

I like pie.  Mmm, pie.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Fri, 24 December 2010, 08:08:56

Quote from: ch_123;268218

Looks like MW's ***** is obediently taking part in the petty, and decidedly boring anti-Ripster *****ing.

Atta' boy. Have a biscuit.

Dear ch-123,

Not a valid youtube URL

Sincerely,
CLiB

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Fri, 24 December 2010, 08:33:28

What can I say? I am a high-tech redneck.

I'm gonna be the better person here and apologize for the things I've been saying to Ripster and ch-123.  If they don't accept the apology, that's their loss.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: jimmy919 on Fri, 24 December 2010, 10:19:19

Quote from: ripster;268252

Kid Rock.  Appropriate white trash no-talent choice.

I'm no Kid Rock fan, but apparently the guy has some talent - being able to play multiple instruments and completing albums by himself.  

But really, what I wanted to say is...has anybody seen the $500 Model F (AT) on eBay???  http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-PERSONAL-KEYBOARD-M-F-CLICKY-Vintage-/150538256765?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item230cc7817d (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-PERSONAL-KEYBOARD-M-F-CLICKY-Vintage-/150538256765?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item230cc7817d)

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 24 December 2010, 10:33:08

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;268262

What can I say? I am a high-tech redneck.

I'm gonna be the better person here and apologize for the things I've been saying to Ripster and ch-123.  If they don't accept the apology, that's their loss.

Don't apologize! Ripster was a jerk and deserved it!

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:33:16

To assume that the seller has actually counted the number of keys instead of grabbed the closest description from anyplace handy is a mistake... Asking if the AT is on the label is a better way to know if there is not a pic of the actual item posted. When there is a pic of an AT that says 83 keys in the description I tend to believe the pic because most sellers don't realize there is difference, but asking is still sound practice.  
 
This listing is an example of what also commonly happens when the sellers are confusing the "5 pin DIN" with "AT connector"  and so often times the XT's will be called AT's in the description.  Again, confirm that the pic is the actual item for sale and then trust what you see over whatever it says...

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: msiegel on Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:48:42

I looked at the photo first. It's surely an XT.

When I saw 83 keys mentioned in the description, I got the impression the seller realizes what he's selling; that's always reassuring :)

edit: "sounds awesome" and "i personally love this keyboard" demonstrate that the seller has good taste :D

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Fri, 24 December 2010, 14:06:47

High-Tech and Redneck are mutually exclusive.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 24 December 2010, 15:00:57

It's a song by George Jones.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Sam on Fri, 24 December 2010, 17:10:56

Quote from: Voixdelion;268324

To assume that the seller has actually counted the number of keys instead of grabbed the closest description from anyplace handy is a mistake... Asking if the AT is on the label is a better way to know if there is not a pic of the actual item posted. When there is a pic of an AT that says 83 keys in the description I tend to believe the pic because most sellers don't realize there is difference, but asking is still sound practice.  
 
This listing is an example of what also commonly happens when the sellers are confusing the "5 pin DIN" with "AT connector"  and so often times the XT's will be called AT's in the description.  Again, confirm that the pic is the actual item for sale and then trust what you see over whatever it says...

Actually, the listing is totally correct, albeit perhaps a bit misleading, very possibly due to the lack of knowledge by the seller.  The XT and AT do use the same 5-pin DIN connector.  There are also terminal keyboards that use a 5-pin DIN connector, but it's physically different than the XT/AT 5-pin connector with a different spacing of the pins.  So just saying it's a 5-pin DIN connector isn't sufficient unless you know more about the keyboard.  You need to know if it's a PC/XT/AT type or a terminal type.

Now the XT and AT have a different spec for controller and what the functions of the 5 pins.  The XT is a one-way interface where the keyboard only sends data to the computer.  The AT sends data back to the keyboard in order to control the LEDs.  There were keyboards made at the time that are XT/AT switchable, being the connector is the same.  AFAIK, IBM didn't make any that were switchable.

The listing correctly identifies the keyboard as an "IBM PC (Personal Computer) clicky keyboard" and correctly identifies the connector as "IBM PC / AT - 5 Pin DIN connector".  It does fail to mention that being an IBM PC and not an IBM PC/AT keyboard, the electronics mean it won't work as-is with a modern PC.  "PC / AT" is also an ambiguous term.  It could mean PC and/or AT, which in this case is 100% correct.  It could also mean just the IBM AT which is frequently identified as a "PC / AT".  The listing doesn't say anyplace that the keyboard was actually tested.  It only makes mention of the "Clicky Keys and sounds awesome."  You don't need to attach the keyboard to a computer to listen to the clicks as you type.

A full disclosure that this keyboard will not work as-is on a modern PC would have been better, but I see nothing outright false about this listing, nor anything unusual given a lot of sellers sell items which they're not totally familiar with nor know well the history of computing and keyboards.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Sam on Fri, 24 December 2010, 17:17:30

Quote from: ripster;268295

$500?  That sounds about right.

Sounds a bit high to me.  I bought a few new, NIB, and almost NIB ATs this year and didn't pay anywhere near that.  The highest I heard a NIB go for was $450, but the market for ATs seems to have fallen considerably in the past couple of months, albeit that's for used boards, being NIB units aren't sold so regularly.  I'd say $300-$400 would be a much more reasonable price.  However, being the keyboard is in Canada, anyone in the US buying it would need to consider the shipping costs which are considerably higher than what you'd expect for a board shipped domestically.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sat, 25 December 2010, 01:04:04

Quote from: Sam;268431

Actually, the listing is totally correct, albeit perhaps a bit misleading....

True.  This seller actually seems to know more than most about what he has.  I hadn't meant to imply that the seller was listing falsities at all, just noting that commonly the letters "AT" show up in almost all listings for boards that use that 5 pin connection.    When I was seeking an F/AT,I came across A LOT of sellers describing  the XT as an AT keyboard simply because of the connector.  A lot of sellers won't make a distinction in differences between those that you mentioned either, but this is kind of niche market here. =)  

That there is even more than one kind of "Model F"  and that only one  will work on a modern PC isn't really common knowledge at all.  And since some don't even say "Model F" on the outside of the board anywhere,  I don't think I've ever seen an XT actually referred to as a "Model F" in a listing, much less as an F/XT.  I don't know if I've even seen one with a specification stating that it won't actually work on a modern PC.  (I think even the AT ones listed correctly are sometimes only  accidentally so.  Pretty sure the listings I've seen that actually refer to it as "Model F-AT" instead of "vintage IBM keyboard", "84-key" or "personal Computer AT keyboard"  were from GH'ers anyway)

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 05:10:44

It's a model F XT.

They're still GOOD keyboards to have if you have an actual 5150 like myself. Or 5160s, but those aren't as cool.

It is possible to get an F XT working with a modern computer, but I wouldn't advise going through all that work; and the layout is so foreign that most people would have trouble using it with a modern computer anyway.

The F AT is one option, or an F terminal.

I wouldn't mind having a nice F AT myself (with layout modifications of course).

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 07:56:45

Quote from: ripster;268622

I think it's nice when Ebay sellers provide valuable info like whether the keyboard will work.

But then, when I sell my Model F AT it will magically become NIB again.  I sprinkle Christmas Elf magic dust on it.

If he had said NIB instead of "Mint" it would be worth $500.

I've always had issues with IBM collectors, not only are most of them arrogant and scoff at my intellistations... but it's such a waste. Seriously.
The majority of this IBM stuff will still be working after all of us are long dead. So, I'm enjoying it. Not letting it sit unused on some dusty shelf.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 08:08:48

Quote from: ripster;268628

I will take that under consideration next time I pull mine out of the garage for a ride around the block.

Show Image

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4760479695_94ae1f9d42_b.jpg)

You should be using that IBM industrial mini!

LOL, giving your son a unicomp instead, shame on you ripster. Get him something with a better logo and chassis.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 08:30:02

Quote from: ripster;268631

It could be worse.

I could have given him an old IBM computer.

You mean like a 6562 300PL? That would be awesome! Recycled Goods just sold their last 6562 300PL for $239. Darn.
http://www.recycledgoods.com/products/IBM-6562-36U-Pentium-200-MHz-Personal-Computer-300PL.html (http://www.recycledgoods.com/products/IBM-6562-36U-Pentium-200-MHz-Personal-Computer-300PL.html)

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Sam on Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:57:27

Quote from: ripster;268622

The seller is an idiot anyway.  97% feedback (shipped nonworking or wrong items).  Won't ship to Japan.  Hopefully not a fellow Geekhacker.

Are you trying to say that a seller who won't sell internationally is an idiot?  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought you said you don't sell internationally.

Title: AT or XT?
Post by: Sam on Sat, 25 December 2010, 22:30:04

I still see the listing.  27 days to go.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150538256765 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150538256765)

We're talking about the same thing, right?  I saw the item before it was mentioned here and I thought it was a bit cheaper then, like the $500 mentioned, but it's since been changed to $550, unless I was seeing things.

Now the auction for XT board, which is what this thread was initially about, has ended with no bids.  Not surprising being that even at only $10, not many people want them being they aren't readily usable unless you have an old XT machine.