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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 25 December 2010, 12:53:38

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 25 December 2010, 12:53:38

I just got a Core 2 Duo machine for Christmas, and I am looking to upgrade the graphics (the onboard video sucks) and I am trying to find the cheapest possible PCI Express x16 card to throw in it.  First thing I need to know, can I use a PCI Express 2.0 or 2.1 card on a PCI Express 1.0 port?  Also, what is the difference between a 128-bit card and a 64-bit card and can I use a 128-bit card on a 64-bit port? All help is greatly appreciated, and Merry Christmas.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Sat, 25 December 2010, 13:42:49

Well, what do you want to do with your sys? Game? Run dual monitors?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Brian8bit on Sat, 25 December 2010, 13:58:12

Yes you can use a PCIe 2.0 card in an older slot. They're backwards compatible. I'm running a 5670 in a PCIe 1.0 slot.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Sat, 25 December 2010, 13:58:29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express It is backwards compatible, however you may need to perform a bios upgrade, if there is one available. The question really is how much performance are you looking to have?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 25 December 2010, 14:57:54

What makes you think the CHEAPEST add-on graphics subsystem is better than the integrated?

Here's the best hierarchical chart (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-recommendation-upgrade,2803-7.html) for determining the position of a GPU against others.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 December 2010, 15:02:31

Does that compact system take full-sized cards?

I'd get something like a second hand 8600GT. Cheap, and wont stress the PSU too much.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 18:55:52

Pop one of your Voodoo II cards in there.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 18:59:01

I don't know if he's got the space for one of those.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:38:30

I am mainly trying to create a computer that is decent at doing pretty much anything I throw at it... Decent gaming graphics and good performance is what I am looking for without shooting a hole through my wallet.  I intend to upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Quad and put 8gb of RAM in it, along with a DirectX 11 graphics card.  Now if I was to do that, would I want to get a new PSU? The current one maxes out at like 300w, would that be enough?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 21:05:40

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;268900

I am mainly trying to create a computer that is decent at doing pretty much anything I throw at it... Decent gaming graphics and good performance is what I am looking for without shooting a hole through my wallet.  I intend to upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Quad and put 8gb of RAM in it, along with a DirectX 11 graphics card.  Now if I was to do that, would I want to get a new PSU? The current one maxes out at like 300w, would that be enough?

If you're putting in a decent graphics gaming-capable, you will need AT LEAST 400W.

I think a 2.4 Ghz quad C2D takes around the same as say a 2.6 duo C2D.

The GPU is more of a concern for power guzzling than the C2D I'd say.

All of my higher end machines are 400 watts.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 25 December 2010, 21:42:19

So things I should get:

-400w+ PSU = $60
-Core 2 Quad 2.4Ghz CPU = $130
-4x 2gb PC2 3200 DDR2 400 RAM = $35.50 x 4 = $142
-DirectX 11 capable graphics card (nVidia GeForce GT 430) = $60
-LG DVD-DL burner = $20

Total estimated cost: $412

Is it worth it to invest this much in a computer you only paid $100 for to begin with?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sun, 26 December 2010, 03:16:33

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;268921

So things I should get:

-400w+ PSU = $60
-Core 2 Quad 2.4Ghz CPU = $130
-4x 2gb PC2 3200 DDR2 400 RAM = $35.50 x 4 = $142
-DirectX 11 capable graphics card (nVidia GeForce GT 430) = $60
-LG DVD-DL burner = $20

Total estimated cost: $412

Is it worth it to invest this much in a computer you only paid $100 for to begin with?

I wouldn't say so.

Wait until PC2-3200 becomes cheaper.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: woody on Sun, 26 December 2010, 03:55:00

I happily downgraded from 7600GS to G210. Less space, less heat.
Would've gone with integrated video, but they don't support dual-link DVI.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sun, 26 December 2010, 05:51:19

Quote from: EverythingIBM;268963

I wouldn't say so.

Wait until PC2-3200 becomes cheaper.

Yeah I will hold off on the RAM, I already have 4gb in it anyways... However, what should I be getting first off of my wishlist? I'm thinking the PSU, maybe?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 06:10:44

There are some cool quad-head 8400GS cards on newegg, if you don't plan on doing any heavy 3d stuff.

And I stress if you don't plan on doing any heavy 3d stuff.  I'm using a dual-head PCIe x16 8800GT alongside a dual-head PCI 8400GS, and the 8400 is less than 1/4 the speed of the 8800 with OpenGL apps.  That may just be the craptastic PCI texture bandwidth and the fact that multihead X has to copy all the textures to both cards in desktop spanning mode though, iunno.

I think my next mobo will have two PCIe x16 slots and one of those quad-head 8400s will go in alongside the 8800. :3

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Sun, 26 December 2010, 06:26:10

For something with 96 SP's and 1GB RAM GT 430 seems like a great deal right now, so stick with that. They also don't need a separate PCI-E power connector. You could probably even run it right now on your current PSU.

As for a PSU,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151074&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-074-_-Product

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:00:44

All I am looking to do is play Call of Duty: World at War.  Let me put it this way, it ran (although slow) on a 3.0Ghz Pentium 4 with a ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro and 3gb of RAM. So I need a card better than that one.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:57:31

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;268900

Now if I was to do that, would I want to get a new PSU? The current one maxes out at like 300w, would that be enough?

Definitely not, you'd want something in the 400-500W region.

Also, check out what motherboard chipset your computer has. Just because the mobo might have the right socket, and support Core 2 Duos, doesnt automatically mean that it will support all Core 2 Quads, or even any of them.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:19:17

Hmm ya, it sounds to me like if you want all that stuff, you'd be better off building a new machine. :P

newegg sells case+PSU+mobo+cpu+ram(+disk sometimes) kits that can save you a couple of bucks.

I think you'd be looking at somewhere around $300 for a cheap AMD quad-core kit with 400w PSU and an 8800GT or equivalent card.

I built this 8 gig 3-core 8800GT AMD box from stuff there for about $350 with an existing case and PSU, but the 3-core+mobo deal was a steal and isn't available anymore, nor is the video card. :s  That being said, the mobo is a piece of crap, and I had to disable the onboard video, sound, and NIC to get it to behave properly under load. >_>

You get what you pay for, I reckon...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Sun, 26 December 2010, 11:01:48

I would like to point out that wattage is not always the most important thing to look for when choosing a new PSU. Amperage is, for instance a Corsair 450w PSU which has a lot of Amps of the 12v rail is usually sufficient for most mid tier single GPU machines. Also 80 Plus Certifications are good. I recommend brands like seasonic and corsair. Also 8GB of ram is beyond needed for any level of gaming, in fact I am running 4GB on my machine and have yet to tax it out while gaming, VM is another story...

As for those recommending 8 Series GPU's... DUH! OP want's a DX11 Card! Not a DX10 Card! Price to performance, the best card OP could probably invest in right now is a ATi 6850, 5770, or a Nvidia GTX460...

As a reminder older Core2Duo CPU's were power hungry, (although newer ones are power efficent) so If OP's CPU is older I would recommend going into a 600W 80 plus, over 20amps 12v rail PSU.

I think OP should take screenshots of cpuz of cpu, motherboard, and ram, so we could give him a much better opinion on what he/she should be using.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 11:48:07

Quote from: NAVIWORLDINC;269100

As for those recommending 8 Series GPU's... DUH! OP want's a DX11 Card! Not a DX10 Card! Price to performance, the best card OP could probably invest in right now is a ATi 6850, 5770, or a Nvidia GTX460...

Ah right, sorry.  I'm coming from OpenGL land, myself.  I didn't realize that newer releases of directx stopped supporting older cards. :<

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Sun, 26 December 2010, 12:59:46

Quote from: bladamson;269120

Ah right, sorry.  I'm coming from OpenGL land, myself.  I didn't realize that newer releases of directx stopped supporting older cards. :<

Microsoft and DX did not stop support... The hardware of the video card cannot support DX11. The 8XXX series cards were designed to support DX10, and I think maybe 10.1??? not to sure about that right now. But DX11 was released a while after the 8XXX series cards.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 13:36:55

Quote from: NAVIWORLDINC;269123

Microsoft and DX did not stop support... The hardware of the video card cannot support DX11. The 8XXX series cards were designed to support DX10, and I think maybe 10.1??? not to sure about that right now. But DX11 was released a while after the 8XXX series cards.

Don't take this the wrong way; I'm not trying to be argumentative, but...  Isn't that the definition of dropping software support?

I mean, you can run an opengl 4.1 app on a 7900, if you want to, but the unsupported features fall back on software and it's kinda slow until you turn them off.

Maybe it's different in the gaming world?  Is DX more bare-metal-to-the-hardware than OGL is or something?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Sun, 26 December 2010, 23:13:58

Quote from: bladamson;269139

Don't take this the wrong way; I'm not trying to be argumentative, but...  Isn't that the definition of dropping software support?

I mean, you can run an opengl 4.1 app on a 7900, if you want to, but the unsupported features fall back on software and it's kinda slow until you turn them off.

Maybe it's different in the gaming world?  Is DX more bare-metal-to-the-hardware than OGL is or something?

No that is the definition of hardware support. Modern video cards are built with hardware support for a certain version of Direct X. It has been this way for years.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Mon, 27 December 2010, 05:19:00

Hmm, still seems kinda backwards to me, but...  I think we're on two totally different wavelengths here.  Nevermind. :)

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 27 December 2010, 10:38:43

Quote from: ch_123;269029

Definitely not, you'd want something in the 400-500W region.

Also, check out what motherboard chipset your computer has. Just because the mobo might have the right socket, and support Core 2 Duos, doesnt automatically mean that it will support all Core 2 Quads, or even any of them.

I looked up the mobo on Intel.com and found that this mobo does support some Core 2 Quad processors.  That said, it can also support quad-core Xeon processors, but which would be better? A Core 2 Quad or a quad-core Xeon with the same specs?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Mon, 27 December 2010, 10:49:49

From what I understand (which ain't much sometimes), I think the Xeon has a faster internal bus and faster cache memory.  Not sure if it does more hyperthreading or not.  It's a better, faster CPU, but you'll pay out the nose for it.

I'd be running a box with two of 'em if I could afford it. XD

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Mon, 27 December 2010, 12:41:58

I wouldn't waste your money on a xeon, although they are GREAT on paper, they are really good for highly processed tasks, modern games don't really use a heavy load on the processor and work mostly off of the GPU. It would be better for gaming if you to went with a quad core and go with a better video card...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 27 December 2010, 13:42:10

Xeons (at least the ones that are socket compatible with regular desktop CPUs) are mostly identical to their Core/Pentium counterparts. I have read that they make some subtle modifications to make them more suited to server workloads (not sure of the specifics). The main difference though is that the chips are not clocked as high as their desktop counterparts, meaning that that on a price point, they're slower, and on a performance point, they're more expensive.

Stick to the desktop chips, basically.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 27 December 2010, 14:01:14

Ok, I've made most of my decisions on what to buy in order to upgrade this machine, but I have an even bigger issue right now... The PS/2 port on this mobo can't power my Model M! I can't live without using my Model M on my best computer, so what is the cheapest way to go in order to get it working again?  PS/2 to USB adapter, maybe?

EDIT: I'm too lazy to do Ripster's Model M to USB mod, so is there any other way to make this work?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Mon, 27 December 2010, 14:16:47

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269457

Ok, I've made most of my decisions on what to buy in order to upgrade this machine, but I have an even bigger issue right now... The PS/2 port on this mobo can't power my Model M! I can't live without using my Model M on my best computer, so what is the cheapest way to go in order to get it working again?  PS/2 to USB adapter, maybe?

EDIT: I'm too lazy to do Ripster's Model M to USB mod, so is there any other way to make this work?

Dude!  That's crazy! :P

Might be able to clip the power pin off the KB connector at the motherboard and run a 5v lead from a molex connector or something.  Or do the same thing with a ps/2 extension cable, if you don't want to attack your motherboard with a hot poker.

Edit: If the ps/2 power rail is too wimpy to run the M, I imagine the USB power rail is too.  They're probably on the same circuit.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 27 December 2010, 14:47:14

Here is the thing though, I have run the Model M on this mobo just yesterday without problem, and today it won't work.  But it is even more complicated than that... I just tried plugging in my M4-1 into the SDL cable for my Model M, and, as I expected, it worked without issue... But then, out of curiosity, I plugged the SDL back into my Model M and it worked!  Totally bizzare, and that still isn't the worst of it... BIOS recognizes the keyboard upon startup, and it still works in the Windows Advanced Boot menu, but as soon as Windows begins to load the keyboard and mouse stop responding and I have to reboot.  Anybody have any clue as to what the hell is going on here?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Mon, 27 December 2010, 14:57:33

Weeeeeeeeeeeird.

It's Gremlins, I tell ya.

Iunno, wiggle the SDL end of the cable in your M and see if the keyboard resets or stops working sporadically?  Has it happened again?

The Gremlins can strike at any time.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Mon, 27 December 2010, 15:26:17

Aha!  That is good to know.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 27 December 2010, 15:31:27

Yeah CLiB, it's a voltage issue.

Wrong amounts of voltage can do anything crazy and weird: but the bottom line is, it doesn't work normally. And that's the problem.

My HP had a PSU issue (HP uses cheap PSUs), and it did some of the strangest things: never to be repeated on a computer ever again.

Computers run on voltage, wrong amounts can still "work"... but in goofy ways.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 27 December 2010, 15:42:36

Thanks for the tip Ripster, I'll have to look into getting a Blue Cube or a Belkin USB converter... Damn, I was hoping it was Gremlins, I want to see if they really blow up in the microwave :P

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Mon, 27 December 2010, 16:28:58

Here's some cheap Belkins if that's your plan:
http://outlet.lenovo.com/accessories/keyboards-mice/41a1585.html

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 27 December 2010, 16:40:21

thanks Pylon, thats a better price than what I found on ebay...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 27 December 2010, 19:11:31

Quote from: bladamson;269481

Weeeeeeeeeeeird.

It's Gremlins, I tell ya.

Iunno, wiggle the SDL end of the cable in your M and see if the keyboard resets or stops working sporadically?  Has it happened again?

The Gremlins can strike at any time.

(http://anotherbeautifulday.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/gremlin-photo.jpg)

Oh no! Here they come!

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Mon, 27 December 2010, 19:25:16

Did they ever figure out a way to stop those things from rusting out into a pile of powder in less than 6 months?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 27 December 2010, 19:28:28

I don't think so. There's a reason why you haven't seen one in over 20 (or almost 30 now!) years.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 27 December 2010, 19:59:35

I think the Gremlins that are messing up my Model M look more like this:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nJLGJOxc1is/TOGkdIaB7SI/AAAAAAAAACg/M-N93oMzdds/s1600/gremlin.jpg)

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 27 December 2010, 21:07:43

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269608

I think the Gremlins that are messing up my Model M look more like this:

Show Image

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nJLGJOxc1is/TOGkdIaB7SI/AAAAAAAAACg/M-N93oMzdds/s1600/gremlin.jpg)

Or possibly this:
(http://wwwery.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dell-CEO-Michael-Dell.jpg)

Those Gremlins are very nasty.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Azuremen on Tue, 28 December 2010, 06:03:14

Quote from: microsoft windows;269594

I don't think so. There's a reason why you haven't seen one in over 20 (or almost 30 now!) years.

I see them randomly show up. Very rarely.

I'd suggest more along the lines of a 500W PSU I guess, though it seems like it could almost be cheaper to build a new computer with DDR3 and so on, since DD3 8GB sets are going for less than $100 nowadays...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 09:50:53

I found a PSU while browsing around Google and I think it might just do the trick...
http://store.thirtyday.com/ropo50dumiat.html (http://store.thirtyday.com/ropo50dumiat.html)
500w, Micro ATX, cheap.  What more could I ask for, that is if it isn't just a piece of **** that will die in 3 months... well lets hope not, anyways.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 12:21:45

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269808

I found a PSU while browsing around Google and I think it might just do the trick...
http://store.thirtyday.com/ropo50dumiat.html (http://store.thirtyday.com/ropo50dumiat.html)
500w, Micro ATX, cheap.  What more could I ask for, that is if it isn't just a piece of **** that will die in 3 months... well lets hope not, anyways.

I really would not recommend that PSU, the amperage on the 12v rails is VERY low. Also I find having multiple 12v rails is gimmicky. One thing I would never skimp money on would be the PSU. I would seriously reconsider and find a 80plus PSU. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139017, For example, this thing provides almost 3 times the amps, which, like I said earlier is more important. On paper http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182199 This seams like a Very good PSU for the price.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 12:36:33

My friend lost his motherboard and Geforce FX 5200 (back in the day) from a bad power supply. Don't skimp on it.

Just get this if mATX is what you're looking for (I presume SFX and mATX are the same)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-063-_-Product

Despite being 350W, it throws out more amps on the 12V rails (18A on both 12V rails) than the "500W" you posted.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 12:39:23

Quote from: Pylon;269849

My friend lost his motherboard and Geforce FX 5200 (back in the day) from a bad power supply. Don't skimp on it.

Just get this if mATX is what you're looking for (I presume SFX and mATX are the same)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-063-_-Product

Despite being 350W, it throws out more amps on the 12V rails (18A on both 12V rails) than the "500W" you posted.

Nice find for a Small Form Factor Machine. I like Seasonic PSU's. I might keep that model in mind if I ever plan on building a multimedia pc.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 14:10:59

Ok then I will browse around some more, but I would really like for the PSU to be 400w or better; the graphics card I want requires it, and it must be Micro ATX with dimensions of 4.9" length and 2.5" height, otherwise it won't fit in my case.  I had found one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338019) on newegg for $60, but had some good and some bad reviews so I don't know if thats the one for me or not... Any other suggestions? Thanks for all the help guys, it's making this so much easier...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 28 December 2010, 14:14:52

Make sure it's not Chinese. Junky PSU's from China always have bad capacitors.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 14:41:36

By Chinese he means PRC. Taiwan makes good stuff. (Seasonic is based there).

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 14:46:57

I feel stupid for asking, but I just want to make sure I get a decent PSU... But how about this one? (http://cgi.ebay.com/480W-Micro-ATX-Power-Supply-Replace-Sprkle-FSP350-60GNV-/260713154577?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item3cb3b70811)

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 28 December 2010, 15:26:15

Looks like a junky one. What's odd is that the model number has "FSP" at the start, which is the brand of a relatively decent PSU maker (Fortron Source Power), but FSP350 would indicate a 350W FSP PSU, so obviously they threw in the letters to make people think it's a better PSU than it really is. That, and the label shows no FSP logo.

Get one of these (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Corsair-VX450W-450-Watt-Power-Supply-/230525644989?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item35ac6630bd)

$20 more, but no bull****.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 15:29:24

ch_123, that's ATX. I think the guy's looking for an mATX (SFX) PSU.

Go with the Seasonic I suggested earlier. Seasonic makes solid PSUs from what I've heard.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 15:43:03

Pylon, I would get that PSU, but I need it to be 400w or better cause the graphics card I want requires a 400w+ PSU... Thats why I'm kinda stuck here, I can't find a good name-brand PSU in the right form factor for a decent price, and I really don't want to settle for a high-quality low power PSU that can't handle a semi-decent graphics card.

EDIT: To be a little more helpful, my budget for this PSU shouldn't exceed $75 and I intend to use it in my Core 2 machine for at least 2 years. 400w or better, high quality, Micro ATX, long lasting PSU... That's what I'm looking for.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:09:25

The amps on the 12V rails are more important than overall wattage.

Why don't you just ghetto rig it to work with an ATX PSU?
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/7186/dsc01109rd6.jpg)
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031111966&postcount=954

Then get:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151074&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-074-_-Product
Or:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139018

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:14:08

If worst comes to worst I just might do that.  Maybe I will take an old Dell OptiPlex 240 tower case and put my mobo in there and just get an ATX PSU to throw in there... Or I could just buy a new case and PSU all together... Either way, I am going to need to seriously consider everything before actually going through with any of this...

EDIT: Can I just take my Micro ATX mobo and throw it into any ATX case?  If so then I am definitely doing that.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:15:47

Also, if you have a Dell, some of the older ones used a funny PSU pinout. You could potentially fry your mobo.

You should go to a recycler and get an old ATX case or something.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:42:49

Quote from: Pylon;269925

ch_123, that's ATX. I think the guy's looking for an mATX (SFX) PSU.

Go with the Seasonic I suggested earlier. Seasonic makes solid PSUs from what I've heard.

There's no such thing as a microATX PSU, as distinct to an ATX PSU. I have a mATX case, and a Corsair PSU.

There can be an issue whereby a large PSU will be too deep for a small case, but that only really happens when you're dealing with high wattage PSUs (i.e. 800W+)

Quote

EDIT: To be a little more helpful, my budget for this PSU shouldn't exceed $75 and I intend to use it in my Core 2 machine for at least 2 years. 400w or better, high quality, Micro ATX, long lasting PSU... That's what I'm looking for.

I think that PSU I linked you is $75 including shipping.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Brian8bit on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:46:42

http://www.evercase.co.uk/PowerSupplyUnits.htm
http://www.evercase.co.uk/PowerSupplyMeasurement.htm

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:47:57

Quote from: ch_123;269963

There's no such thing as a microATX PSU, as distinct to an ATX PSU. I have a mATX case, and a Corsair PSU.



I think that PSU I linked you is $75 including shipping.

I think what OP might be looking for is a small form factor PSU... I am not sure though and that is part of the reason why I have almost given up on this thread.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:49:33

Those things there are just short-depth ATX PSUs.

CliB - you need to measure how big of a PSU can fit into the case, and compare it with the dimensions of some decent PSUs.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:50:35

Quote from: NAVIWORLDINC;269965

I think what OP might be looking for is a small form factor PSU... I am not sure though and that is part of the reason why I have almost given up on this thread.

He linked a picture of the PC some time ago, and if I remember right, it looked like an ATX PSU judging from the back.

Pics would be nice.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: kriminal on Tue, 28 December 2010, 16:52:24

*****facepalm*****

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:02:55

Ok then forgetting all that Micro ATX crap, can I put my current mobo into any old case without any issue? If so then I'm gonna just buy a full sized case and an ATX PSU and go from there with it cause thats probably the only way I can get a PSU that is of high-quality.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:06:43

You should just pay the little bit if extra money for a good PSU that will fit in your current case. It'll probably cost less than getting a new case and a big PSU.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:10:35

Wrong MW, the case and PSU I am looking at is still under my $75 cap, so I think thats the way I'm gonna go... Plus I'm not a big fan of the current case I have, I prefer a tower to a pizza-box anyways...

Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811154095 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811154095)

PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139018 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139018)

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:10:40

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269971

Ok then forgetting all that Micro ATX crap, can I put my current mobo into any old case without any issue? If so then I'm gonna just buy a full sized case and an ATX PSU and go from there with it cause thats probably the only way I can get a PSU that is of high-quality.

Some OEM machines don't use ATX/mATX standard, you could always run it outside a case. You can also drill/tap your own holes if you had to (talking about retrofitting into a case). Either way, YOU NEED TO POST PICTURES OF YOUR COMPUTER. I mean, if you did that we could understand what is going on better, and give MUCH better recommendations. For all we know you might have a normal ATX/mATX PSU and you can use just about anything... Get to posting pics, also make sure to clear ones of the mobo so we can look at the mounting screws.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:13:46

NAVIWORLDINC, I will get right on that... Perhaps I will use my bro's new camera he got for Christmas, I don't thing he likes it all that much anyways...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:19:58

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269971

Ok then forgetting all that Micro ATX crap, can I put my current mobo into any old case without any issue? If so then I'm gonna just buy a full sized case and an ATX PSU and go from there with it cause thats probably the only way I can get a PSU that is of high-quality.

An mATX case will fit in a standard ATX case.

Be careful about what case you get. If you have a quad core CPU and a good graphics card, there are cooling considerations that older/cheaper cases won't cater for.

It is possible than your system uses a standard sized ATX PSU. If you can open the computer and take a picture of the PSU, particularly paying attention to how deep it sits into the case.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:28:24

I am almost 100% certain that this is not a standard sized ATX PSU, the dimensions are 5" x 2.5" x 4"...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:31:04

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269983

I am almost 100% certain that this is not a standard sized ATX PSU, the dimensions are 5" x 2.5" x 4"...

I am like on thin ice about leaving this thread. Take pictures damn it! It will answer MANY questions... :yell:

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:32:20

Currently doing so right now...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 17:34:07

Quote from: ch_123;269978

An mATX case will fit in a standard ATX case.

Be careful about what case you get. If you have a quad core CPU and a good graphics card, there are cooling considerations that older/cheaper cases won't cater for.

It is possible than your system uses a standard sized ATX PSU. If you can open the computer and take a picture of the PSU, particularly paying attention to how deep it sits into the case.

I'm sure you mean motherboard there. I don't think you can fit a case in another case that easily (Russian nesting cases? I mean cram an ITX case into mATX mini tower, then that into ATX)

Also, about earlier, here's at least two flavors of mATX.

I have a Dell Vostro 220 Mini Tower that seems to have a full sized ATX power supply. I also have an older HP Pavillion 7966 Mini Tower that has a smaller than ATX (probably mATX/SFX) sized PSU.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 18:52:28

Here are the pics. sorry if the quality is bad, my bro's new camera sucks, the slightest movement makes the picture blurry, and I don't have the steadiest of hands... And I really had to tone down the resolution in order to upload them to the forum, but this is the best that I can do...

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14326&stc=1&d=1293583691)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14327&stc=1&d=1293583691)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14329&stc=1&d=1293583691)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14330&stc=1&d=1293583691)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14331&stc=1&d=1293583691)

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 19:14:36

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270028

Here are the pics. sorry if the quality is bad, my bro's new camera sucks, the slightest movement makes the picture blurry, and I don't have the steadiest of hands... And I really had to tone down the resolution in order to upload them to the forum, but this is the best that I can do...

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14326&stc=1&d=1293583691)

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14327&stc=1&d=1293583691)

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14329&stc=1&d=1293583691)

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14330&stc=1&d=1293583691)

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14331&stc=1&d=1293583691)

Appears to me that you could fit any normal sized ATX power supply in your existing case, it also appears that if you wanted better airflow any ATX case that supported mATX would also work with your setup, because you have a mATX board. So if I were you I would personally get a nice Seasonic/Corsair 650W and be done with it all. If you want better cooling (don't know what video card you have picked out yet) you should defiantly consider a different case.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 28 December 2010, 19:22:34

You should also post a photo of how the PSU fits inside the case so we can get a better idea of what you need.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 20:03:01

I have decided to just get a new case and a new PSU... It will give the mobo better cooling, and it will be needed once I upgrade the CPU and graphics card.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 20:27:16

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270062

I have decided to just get a new case and a new PSU... It will give the mobo better cooling, and it will be needed once I upgrade the CPU and graphics card.

I can make great suggestions if you want any help.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 20:29:42

I am always open to suggestions, anything that might make my life just a little bit easier...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 20:34:16

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270078

I am always open to suggestions, anything that might make my life just a little bit easier...

Personally I am a Lian Li fanboi... I personally own a Lancool K62(sub brand of Lian Li). WONDERFUL CASE. If you think watercooling might be in your future, there is also the CM960 II Advanced.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 20:48:22

Nice looking case, but a little bit out of my budget.  I only have $250 to spend on this entire computer, and I need $130 for the Core 2 Quad... I intend on asking for the graphics card, the PSU, and a new case for my birthday which is in like 2 weeks, and I have to buy the CPU myself.  The most I might spend on a case is like $50 maybe? Any suggestions in that price range?

EDIT: Maybe something like this? (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147144)

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 21:03:36

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270087

The most I might spend on a case is like $50 maybe? Any suggestions in that price range?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147120
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811815004
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147112


It is somewhat a shame that all the budget cases have side fans or holes for them... Not a fan of them, kinda disturbs front to back airflow. But if I were in your shoes I would get the one on top seams most spacious and top mounted exhaust fans are good.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 28 December 2010, 21:09:16

What about this one?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147144 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147144)

I like it, and it's in my budget.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Tue, 28 December 2010, 21:57:34

Or just get a case from a thrown out computer. I found an old Compaq that even has toolless drive bays.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NAVIWORLDINC on Tue, 28 December 2010, 23:54:02

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270096

What about this one?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147144 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147144)

I like it, and it's in my budget.

Appears decent to me.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 29 December 2010, 00:48:33

This one is better and cheaper:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811164143 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811164143)

The colour is more hip too.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 29 December 2010, 07:31:42

I usually recommend this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042&cm_re=antec_300-_-11-129-042-_-Product). $10 over your budget though.

Which Core 2 Quad are you getting?

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Wed, 29 December 2010, 08:46:33

Core 2 Quad Q6600, it's not the best but it's in my price range and it's compatible with my mobo.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 29 December 2010, 09:25:45

Linkworld is a lousy company though. I wouldn't recommend any of their stuff after reading a review of one of their power supplies, which was very poorly made.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 29 December 2010, 12:23:09

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;269971

Ok then forgetting all that Micro ATX crap, can I put my current mobo into any old case without any issue? If so then I'm gonna just buy a full sized case and an ATX PSU and go from there with it cause thats probably the only way I can get a PSU that is of high-quality.

Dunno if you've solved this already since I have only gotten up to 19 hrs ago but Phaedrus has some guides on PSU's posted on OCN that really helped me out (http://www.overclock.net/power-supplies/715889-psu-articles.html)  - very clear and precise info on what to look for and why.  The most definitive and least confusing source on the subject IMO.:thumb: (and take it from someone who has learned the hard way, the PSU is not where you want to sacrifice quality for cost.  Apparently PSU's hate to die alone;  Mine was taking out GPU's like a serial killer and I didn't even know the problems weren't just bad cards.  After losing 3 in a years time and one of those just weeks after replacement, I finally  thought to investigate what else might be causing it.)


And Geeks.com used to have some pretty decent selection of inexpensive cases already, plus year end liquidation sale now...

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Arc'xer on Wed, 29 December 2010, 15:17:38

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270256

Core 2 Quad Q6600, it's not the best but it's in my price range and it's compatible with my mobo.

Actually it was at one point one of the best quad core CPU released some consider it a milestone. Q6600 as long as you give it a proper after-market cooler and can hit around 3.4Ghz should be fine for another 2-3 years or more depending on use.

For gaming it's a bit past it's prime at least compared to the latest. But if you mostly play older games or don't game much it's a very strong CPU. Many are still surprised to this day just how good it can be because many who bought the Core 2 brand went with the E8s and other dual-core. While those who went with the Q6600 were lambasted for buying a CPU, which won't be utilized much but to this day there's still a lot of Q6600s still being used because of just how good it was.

Of course if anyone is building a retro 775 build it's most likely going to be a Q9550 build, since the 6600 isn't sold anymore. I guess your kinda lucky for finding a Q6600 being sold.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Pylon on Wed, 29 December 2010, 16:41:43

He's on an OEM motherboard. It's not gonna overclock.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: NamelessPFG on Thu, 30 December 2010, 17:26:57

Quote from: Arc'xer;270408

Actually it was at one point one of the best quad core CPU released some consider it a milestone. Q6600 as long as you give it a proper after-market cooler and can hit around 3.4Ghz should be fine for another 2-3 years or more depending on use.

For gaming it's a bit past it's prime at least compared to the latest. But if you mostly play older games or don't game much it's a very strong CPU. Many are still surprised to this day just how good it can be because many who bought the Core 2 brand went with the E8s and other dual-core. While those who went with the Q6600 were lambasted for buying a CPU, which won't be utilized much but to this day there's still a lot of Q6600s still being used because of just how good it was.

I definitely remember some of that Q6600 lambasting three years ago. But here's the situation I had at the time when buying CPUs:

Q6600. E6850. Same price (around $280). Same architecture (65nm Core 2). Same multiplier (9x). But one of them had twice as many cores. Can you say "no-brainer"?

Some still went with the E6850 anyway, thinking that the higher overclocking headroom due to dealing with half the heat and such would work out better in the long run. Then the 45nm Wolfdales like the E8400 showed up a few months later. I still banked on my Q6600 performing well enough with the clock speeds it could attain, with future games later utilizing the extra cores to greater effect, and I'd say it paid off.

Mine's only running at 3.2 GHz, but at a 400 MHz FSB. It's somewhere in the 3.4 to 3.6 GHz range that it needs a massive increase in voltage-too much for my Sunbeamtech Core-Contact Freezer to dissipate the resulting heat increase. Still, I can safely say that for anything that isn't Cortex Command or an emulator, it's the 8800 GT that's bottlenecking this system more than anything else.

I still might be tempted to step up to something newer if the price is low enough, but the main factor there is that I just had to end up dropping $145 on a P35 board, and then P45 shows up a few months later without the exorbitant X38/X48 price tag. I'm concerned about the PCIe 1.1 x16 slot not providing enough bandwidth for the more recent cards, especially once something capable of GTX 480/580 performance becomes affordable.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 30 December 2010, 17:41:25

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270256

Core 2 Quad Q6600, it's not the best but it's in my price range and it's compatible with my mobo.

I think my intellistation supports a Q6600 too... was thinking of getting one myself in the future.

A 2.4 C2D is plenty fast.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Arc'xer on Thu, 30 December 2010, 18:23:40

Quote from: NamelessPFG;270849

I still might be tempted to step up to something newer if the price is low enough, but the main factor there is that I just had to end up dropping $145 on a P35 board, and then P45 shows up a few months later without the exorbitant X38/X48 price tag. I'm concerned about the PCIe 1.1 x16 slot not providing enough bandwidth for the more recent cards, especially once something capable of GTX 480/580 performance becomes affordable.

This was an article done a while back although it's on the 5870 I'm sure comparatively speaking the generations being so near, aren't that big.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_5870_PCI-Express_Scaling/1.html (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_5870_PCI-Express_Scaling/1.html)

In simplest terms there seems to be a lot of mention of a 2-5% performance penalty around the web. I think the 2.0 is more of a future-proofing and not yet fully utilized even by modern cards. It's more of having the bandwidth ahead of time and some minor tweaks here and there. 3.0 is going to be released sometime next year or so it's said again it's more of a future-proofing.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: bladamson on Thu, 30 December 2010, 19:11:04

Yep....  I'm running a 2.1 GHz 3-core Phenom, and the only time I get anywhere near hitting CPU capacity is when I'm recompiling an entire project. >_>  I -did- have to upgrade it to 8 gig RAM, but that was not too horribly expensive...  ... And that's probably only because I use Eclipse. XD

My opinion is, don't upgrade until you need to, or you're just wasting your money on something you could have held off on for another year or so and then gotten something almost twice as good for the same price. :3

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 30 December 2010, 20:03:31

That is what I was thinking too, cause I don't have the money right now and I have no means of income unless I can actually get someone to buy my unopened AutoCAD 2004 install kits.  Plus I need to save up for a car, which is more important than having a good computer.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 30 December 2010, 20:03:39

PSU advice in 3, 2, 1

A quality 400W is plenty for 90% of gaming systems. A quality one should handle up to say a C2Q and a GTX460 or 5850 or 6870, with moderate overclocking. The 400W of choice right now is probably the Antec NeoECO 400C, which is a SeaSonic S12II unit (same base platform as the Corsair CX400 and SeaSonic S12II 430B). It's only available on Newegg.com, and is usually found for $40-$50 shipped.

Title: Graphics Cards
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 31 December 2010, 11:39:38

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;270890

That is what I was thinking too, cause I don't have the money right now and I have no means of income unless I can actually get someone to buy my unopened AutoCAD 2004 install kits.  Plus I need to save up for a car, which is more important than having a good computer.

I'd actually prefer a good computer over a good car. Whenever I buy a car, I won't bother investing much in it. Give me a Model T for all I care (hey, it'll go good with my Model M).