geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dec.net on Sun, 02 January 2011, 17:59:11
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Completely unpredictably, after spending a month on this board, I'm starting to get used to mechanical boards and want to use them always, whereever I go. I almost had to revisit breakfast for several reasons at once when I was forced to use a Macintosh recently with one of those white rubber dome boards that came with it... So quickly the idea came up that I need a carry-around board. Obviously, I had a look at several of the modifications posted, but the ones I've seen didn't fit my demands exactly, mostly because I'm not a person who is very cautious when handling his equipment while on the run. And thus, I'd love to hear some suggestions as to how to fulfill them:
- must be robust. As in, stored in a backpack full of books which falls off a table and survives; and does this about every week or so.
- must be clicky and tactile. I'm right now typing on some linear switches, they are fine and very efficient, but I guess I wouldn't feel the level of affection necessary to carry this thing around everywhere after the novelty factor has worn off.
- must have a somewhat useable layout. I don't necessarily need a numpad, and I'm somewhat in doubt about my F1-F12 keys also; however, the insert/del/home/end/page block is rather useful, and so are arrows. I could very well live with a strange arrangement of Ctrl/Alt/Shift, and I absolutely don't need CapsLock, ever.
- must be comparatively small. Who would have guessed.
- should be light enough to carry around in a backpack. As in, about 1kg perfect, 1.5kg very ok, 2kg at max. Most people would probably consider that quite heavy already, but I guess some weight is to be expected with those robustness requirements.
- should be connectable to USB. PS/2 to USB adapters are alright though, but I'd prefer direct USB, as adapters fit right into my category of "things that are small, light and cheap, and would be an absolute thrill to have where I am right now, but are actually sitting around idly at my desk at home".
-could have a built in trackpoint. Absolutely not a must, but I like my Thinkpad, and the mice at University are even crappier than the keyboards they have there.
So, any suggestions? I was thinking of either bastardizing a Model M (which hurts to think about) or even a Model F XT (which hurts as well, but then it would probably be somewhat ideal, and not that expensive to begin with - however I would have to solve the layout problem then.) Another idea would be a 60% mod (is that the right amount? Can't remember what the different percentages stand for...) of a cherry blue board, and to build a new case for that using either sheet metal or carbon fibre... Including a dust lid, I suppose. But since that would take quite a bit of work and money to finish, I thought I'd better ask first if nobody knew some obscure server keyboard from the late eighties that ticked all the boxes...
Chris
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Would a space saver model M work? It's heavy, but you did say about modding an M.
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I have an F/XT that I am thinking about hacking on, making it into a mini that I can haul around in my laptop bag. The thing about Fs though, is they use capacitive sensing instead of the usual make/break switch arrangement. Which requires special circuitry. If you're any good with EE stuff, I highly encourage you to take a look at the "Model F Hacks" thread, where we've been trying to decipher such things. :P
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Would a space saver model M work? It's heavy, but you did say about modding an M.
i've done that a bit. it *is* heavy, and not as space saving as it looks!
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Hmm... I'd think the official M Space Saver is still a bit too big for my taste when moving around. However, just looking at the internals of mine, it would fit the space requirements quite nicely if I un-tenkey'd it and got rid of the excess space on the west and north of the case. Maybe one could reuse the lower case, leave the barrels uncovered when typing and build a lid that goes on top and protects it while carrying around...
On the model F: I didn't realize the difference between the capacitive sensing switch technology and ordinary switches, to be honest. I'm not particularly good at EE, but I take it you have to take the capacitance and inductance of all circuitry you change for the mod into account as well, right? That would probably go a bit beyond my abilities at the moment, to be honest - but I'm always willing to learn if it's worth it and doesn't require €/$1000 in measuring equipment (I got a multimeter and a 2ch 20MHz oscilloscope, anything beyond that I tend to deem a bit unnecessary for students of Ancient History) :).
Chris
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It's not blues but........
Get a HHKBP2
Stick it in a softcase and slip it in your backpack. I have carried mine to and from work a few times. It even fits In my satchel/messenger bag no probs.
Or get a TG3 82 key keyboard or Deck 82. It's pretty portable and does what you need. No Cherry Blues though.....
TG3 BL82 (Deck minus the bling)
Ebay Item #: 330506545694
80bucks PP
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On the model F: I didn't realize the difference between the capacitive sensing switch technology and ordinary switches, to be honest. I'm not particularly good at EE, but I take it you have to take the capacitance and inductance of all circuitry you change for the mod into account as well, right? That would probably go a bit beyond my abilities at the moment, to be honest - but I'm always willing to learn if it's worth it and doesn't require €/$1000 in measuring equipment (I got a multimeter and a 2ch 20MHz oscilloscope, anything beyond that I tend to deem a bit unnecessary for students of Ancient History) :).
That's all I've got, well 35-year-old 40MHz scope with a scratchy A channel, lol.
Personally, I am thinking that using the ADCs on a Teensy board is the way to go with it. Matt pointed out in the other thread that they are somewhat slow. But the Teensy++ has 8 of them. Assuming that you hooked a row to each ADC via an rc circuit set up as a voltage divider and read a column at a time, then even if the ADCs operate on the order of 30kHz that's still plenty fast for a keyboard if all 8 ADCs are all used in parallel, imo. That'd be what, 120 samples per second, without taking any setup time into account?
Assuming it can do the conversions in parallel. I haven't gotten that far with my thoughts yet. Indeed, I'm still waiting to order a box of Teensies after I get paid for the job I'm doing right now. :P
I've got big plans to interface one to a 512k x 8 SRAM and build a hardware zcode 'terp, too. >_>
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Ok, I just did some reading up on what you guys were doing in the Model F hack thread... So you're trying to take the signals from the capacitive switches directly to feed a teensy and thus build your own controller, right? I mean, for lesser types such as me, would it be possible to go by the route of:
Model F switches (minus a few or in different arrangement, for the actual space saving) connected to -> original controller -> teensy converting XT data to -> USB? Or would that actually mess up the capacitances and result in unreliable switch action or similar problems?
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i have a feeling the design is robust enough to handle major changes in overall capacitance -- it's the parameters of each individual switch-pad that matter, IMO
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Hmm, Noppoo choc mini looks about right, actually! Put a metal/CF lid on that thing (or use a softcover bag) and it's ready to go I suppose... It doesn't have the "I did that! with my HANDS!" factor going for it, but it's quite an unusual board I think. I'll definitely keep that thing in mind before I cut up any old IBM board!
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msiegel, do I get that right that it is no problem to change the wiring of the switches on the PCB so to speak, but that each individual switch has it's set capacitance, so that each key will result in a different behavior at the controller when pressed? Or did I completely misunderstand what you mean by "parameters of each individual switch-pad"?
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Teensy++ has 8 of them.
on the ATmega32U4 that's used for teensy, the analog input pins go through a multiplexer to a single adc.
however, docs claim the adc can do 15ksps... which might just be fast enough :D
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If you could find a used GHSS for sale, that could also work. Personally, I don't like the XM switches that most of them use, but depending on your typing style, you might not mind so much (off center keypresses are somewhat frictiony).
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msiegel, do I get that right that it is no problem to change the wiring of the switches on the PCB so to speak, but that each individual switch has it's set capacitance, so that each key will result in a different behavior at the controller when pressed? Or did I completely misunderstand what you mean by "parameters of each individual switch-pad"?
yes, that's what i had in mind.
i'm guessing each switch needs to have around <1pF capacitance to be read as "open" and maybe >2pF to be read as "closed".
the switches work by capacitively coupling (or not) pulses that are sent through the matrix, not by an absolute measurement of capacitance.
the length and configuration of wiring between switches should be pretty flexible, as long as electrical noise is minimized and they're kept from coupling to each other's signals.
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Yeah. It's the flavor of the week, but the Choc Mini w/ blues sounds closest to the pin for you.
I would say HHKB in an instant, but it doesn't click. But damn they're great.
Suppose you could get a Deck 82 and put blues in it if you're desperate to mod something, but that's getting really pricy.
Siig Minitouch is a good choice, but you would have to carry adapters. Same goes for the Ortek MCK-84.
The mini guru would be perfect when/if the kit becomes available.
Lots of good choices really.
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Based on what you describe as small enough in this thread, you could just go for a standard tenkeyless and soft case...
Like this (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13874)...
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Based on what you describe as small enough in this thread, you could just go for a standard tenkeyless and soft case...
Like this (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13874)...
I almost went with a TG3 82 when I went mechanical, because my previous keyboard was about that size. I'm so glad I went with a standard tenkeyless, and it's definitely small enough to haul around.
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Yeah, I would expect a normal tenkeyless Leopold or Filco to be more convenient to use and cheaper than one of those supercramped supermini things, and it would still be a lot smaller and lighter than a modded IBM.
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Ok, with all the input from you guys, the current plan looks like this: I'll wait for the cherry boards from Ascaii. I'll convert a G80-1800 to blue cherries, see if it feels sturdy enough (otherwise reinforce the case) and carry it around, granted it fits in my backpack. If it feels too big, I'll de-tenkey it. If it breaks, I'll weep quite a bit, warn the world about carrying around cherry boards and go buy me a modern mini/tenkeyless - which seems a bit harder for me than for US-residents I suppose, as Leopold and the likes are pretty much Asia/USA only IMO, thus requiring a $50 shipping fee. Current favorites: Filco 87 or Noppoo Choc Mini blue.
Chris
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The Cherry G80-1800 is a surprisingly heavy 'board. If you plan you get rid of the numpad, that should help, but they are pretty beefy. Without weighing it, I would say it's easily heavier than my 3000 (fullsize). I would vote HHKB if you have the funds.
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How about the cherry g84, it may not be clicky, but it is tactile. It's nice and light (350g) and very compact, I use one as a carry around board. Also you can get them quite cheap off ebay - I have never paid more than £10 for one.
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HHKB(P) is in fact a bit out of my price range, especially considering the shipping costs to Germany, can't find any regular source for them at the moment.
In fact I don't mind something cheap, old and somewhat beefy, as long as it does what I need it to - which consists mainly of feeling good to type on and being small enough to use on computer "terminals" that already have a keyboard attached to them. My other hobby is hiking, and also I frequently take lots (meaning ~5-15) of books to and from University in a desperate attempt to get myself to actually do some work there, so I'm used to carrying a bit of weight.
I just hope it fits my backpack, otherwise I'd have to upgrade in this regard as well - and seeing that I started my keyboard-collection problem intending to find a cure for my backpack-collection problem (at the moment I got a Berghaus Munro, a Tasmanian Tiger Mission Bag XTR, Lowe Alpine Salient, Lowe Alpine Saracen and a german army issue small "Jägerrucksack" as my daily throw-it-in-the-dirt-til-it-rips bag, some of those heavily modified), this isn't exactly what I want. My collection problems might unite against me. Again.
Chris
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Based on your bags of choice, I stand by my comment on a modded M or an unmodded M mini.
I've yet to find anything that compares to the constuction of these things outside of the Abrams line...
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It will fit, unless your backpack is tiny and/or full of other stuff. I once needed to carry a logitech Wave, a huge ping-pong table of a keyboard, and I was quite surprised to find out that, with a bit of persuaion, it fits into my 25 l backpack. A tenkeyless keyboard will fit into a normal 20l pack easily.
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Trust me. Lugging **** in a backpack all day isn't fun, so I would definitely go with something light. I learned this the hard way trying to get home from Chicago on standby after my flight was cancelled.
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So, did the 5-15 books and the military style ginormous rucksacks not tell you anything? This guy carries lots of weight all the time.
Besides, it is so important to match accessories. Bags built like tanks should have keyboards in them that are built like tanks.
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Me read the thread? Never.
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Well, call me a troll but I'd laugh if you popped a IBM Mini out of your bag.
Oh, me too. I meant the "it will fit" comment on the Cherry-equipped tenkeyless keyboards. I'm sure those are a lot smaller and lighter than the IBM, although a pcb mounted keyboard would probably be even better.
BTW I understand that the OP is used to having a heavy backpack, but I still think it's best to try and get a light keyboard anyway. I carry a laptop in a backpack a lot, and switching from a 5-pound laptop to a 3-pound laptop was a huge improvement. Carrying extra weight *all the time* gets tiring. A 16-pound backpack is fine for a day. An 8-pound backpack every day of the year... not as fun.
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Based on your bags of choice, I stand by my comment on a modded M or an unmodded M mini.
Keep in mind though that I don't carry the Saracen to university, or in any densely populated areas for that matter, as it tends to invite comments such as 'wrong turn, buddy, himalaya's the other way'. I wonder why...
(http://www.rangermade.us/store/catalog/images/ruck1.JPG)
(example pic - not me)
And yes, I don't mind a vital bit of kit weighing a kg. I mean, of course, light is better, but more important to me is reliability and sturdiness. And yes, 15 books in my bag are somewhat of a special occasion (finishing a long thesis paper for an example), but still, it happens,and on the way home I buy groceries at least once a week,dropping them all into that bag. I would guess that a lot of those very small boards couldn't take the stress, though they'd be perfectly alright with an empty bag, so my requirements might be a bit special.
Another thing, just read in another thread that blue mx cherries are ESPECIALLY vulnerable to dust and dirt entering the mechanics. Any comments on that?
Chris
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Have you considered G84-4100? It is compact and lightweight, you only have to like ML switches.
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... and go buy me a modern mini/tenkeyless - which seems a bit harder for me than for US-residents I suppose, as Leopold and the likes are pretty much Asia/USA only IMO, thus requiring a $50 shipping fee. Current favorites: Filco 87 or Noppoo Choc Mini blue.
http://www.keyboardco.com/ (http://www.keyboardco.com/)
German layout for Filco 87 on the way:
Layouts for Europe (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10508)
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I can't say it's idea, but I'm carrying my Filco Tenkeyless to work. Pop the plastic cover on and stick it in the backpack next to my laptop. Worked out ok today.
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(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5247/5319975389_9daf2f89ea_z.jpg)
What is the name of the black keyboard here? look like 1:1 to sony vaio layout
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Every time I post a pic of it I get accused of trolling.
The well-established mechanism involved in that is that people actually WANT to either spend a lot of money or effort in localizing some obscure keyboard (call it the applied philosophy of "you get out of things what you put into them"), and therefore don't appreciate inexpensive, rather good feeling keyboards that are readily available. I feel like I'm excused however, as it's probably three times the price of the keyboard to have it shipped to over here.
Chris
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Really? 18$ item with free shipping worldwide? I'm ordering right now to see if I like it in April or so :). It does have chiclet keys though, right? Can't really tell on the photo you so trollingly posted...
Chris
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DealExtreme is free shipping HK Post Airmail worldwide. For some reason though it's slower than Greece repaying the Germans their debts.
do you have direct link to this keyboard there?
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oh seems it's this one: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.44378
but no insert :(((
also no F11 or F12, no break/print
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must be robust. As in, stored in a backpack full of books which falls off a table and survives; and does this about every week or so.
Even after reading the entire thread I come back to this and can only think that the only *good* solution would be to have a hardshell case for whatever was being carried.
Even if a model M's casing and switches would survive that, would the keys without cracking? Repeatedly? Can you run over a model M without having any keys damaged? It seems as if the amount of force might be similar in a fall from table height, if it fell keyboard down with enough books inside. I'm not saying one way or the other, it's actually a curious question ^^;
Once you involve using a hardshell case, less resilient keyboards seem to start to make a reasonable amount of sense (other than the entire fashion coordination direction, sure =P ). You could always do some sort of banged up "upcycled" metal bolted and/or welded together case that you pull the keyboard out of.
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taswyn, exactly my thoughts. Was a bit surprised that people didn't think it would be an issue.
Of course I don't throw around my backpack (at least not when there's anything valuable in there) or drop it off tables on purpose, but it happens... I'm taking a rather long tram/subway/bus commute ride every day at the moment, which often involves abrupt stops and turns, causing all sorts of things to fall over and get stomped by the people who lost their balance. It's pretty far from what I'd call a mac user scenario.
As I said, I'll try the Cherry board on its own first; perhaps if I reinforce the back side (aluminium plate) and find some sort of lid that goes over the keys, this might suffice; otherwise I'll have to go the full hard-case route. I'd think a carbon fibre lid that hinges over an aluminium box with a foam inlet would make an excellent case - I already did some fibreglass lamination work over a negative mold some years ago, which turned out rather ugly (lots of bubbles), but nevertheless useable. Let's just hope CF isn't too different/difficult to work with...
Chris
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A softcase should be more than enough. Keyboards aren't porcelain vases, if there's something that deadens and distributes the impact a little bit, they won't get damaged. The easiest option is some neoprene laptop case/skin. The shape won't be quite right, but you could modify it if you're handy with a sewing machine. A case of some sort makes a lot of sense anyway, because otherwise books and other items might snag on the keycaps and tear a key or two off.
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Hmm... I am somewhat handy with a sewing machine, at least more handy than I am with composite materials I suppose. In fact this might be a viable option as well: a 3mm neoprene bag with a zipper and some internal reinforcement - an internal pocket for an aluminium sheet (or at least a piece of cardboard) that protects the keycaps.
Although of course "self-laminated carbon-fibre/aluminium hardcase" has a better ring to it than "self-sewn neoprene bag with a bit of cardboard in it" :).
Chris
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maybe this: http://5k177.com/more/
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Ok, so the G80-1800 (black) and G80-3000 (blue) from Ascaii have arrived. Very recommended btw! I'm right now in the middle of a cherry harvest and I have to say it looks and feels VERY promising so far. The G80-1800 I have feels VERY lightweight and compact enough for my taste, making it pretty much my ideal carry-around board - with some reinforcement, I'm sure it'll be very able to stand up to the demands of the modern urban crime environment - and also easy to fix, unlike the Fuzzy Dunlops of this world.
Chris