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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:28:10

Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:28:10
Hi there,
the last days i used google and read many threads, reviews and guides about keyboards, but i am not 100% sure, what i should buy. First i want to say that english isn't my native tongue, so please excuse me, if there are some weird explanations.

My current setup is a Logitech G15 refresh and a Razer Lachesis mouse. With the mouse i am fine, but keyboard wise i switched the last 9 or 10 years several keyboards, and i couldn't find a keyboard that suits me. The G15 is better then almost all i had before, but it really isn't exactly, what i'm searching for.

The keyboard that i propably used the most time, was the IBM Model M, which i used from 1992 until 2001. I think that was the biggest mistake ever to give that keyboard away.

Here is some information, what exactly i'm searching for:
-tenkeyless design
-Topre 55g Switches or Cherry MX Blue/Brown)
-US layout is ok for me, aswell as the german layout (no preference)
-No Windows/Media Keys (an option to disable that is fine either)
-i don't need things like: Macro Keys, USB Hub, Audio Jacks, LED
-different row shape (or like the Model M)
-game wise i'm into some World of Warcraft and UT2004/UT3

I mentioned that i read the mechanical keyboard guide, so i searched for a few models. Some that i would maybe buy are these:
-Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Cherry MX Blue
-Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Cherry MX Brown
-Realforce Tenkeyless 55g (uniform pressure feeling)

Well, my budget ist about 250$, and it should be something that is working a long time. Maybe somebody has a good idea about another keyboard that i didn't find yet.
And i have no clue, if cherry blues or browns suit me ? Of course i think i'm more into the tactile feeling, but i didn't like to light keys. Clicking or not, both is fine for me, the feeling is more important to me, than the sound.

The Board that i like best, from what i read about is the Realforce with 55g keys, but i can't find one to buy.

Hope you understand that and can give me some advices!

Thanks very much

Jerri
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:32:17
You did all the work yourself already, I think you should just go with one of the Filcos.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:33:26
Welcome to Geekhack!  If you don't like light switches, then Cherry MX Browns aren't for you.  They are very light and somewhat linear, at least from my experiences typing on them.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:47:06
Wow, thats a very fast forum here, awesome.

@bugfix: Yes, i thought it is better to know a direction, than to ask, which keyboard do you recommend for me, besides that not everybody has to ask a heck of information about me.

@computerlab: That's something i can work with. So the browns are really very light? Lighter than the cheap rubber dome Keyboards? What i don't know, too, is the point, where the key resets, on the cherry Browns they are a bit closer together with the reaction point, when i read the diagrams correctly.

@ripster: Thanks for the Video review link. I thought, that i maybe could import a realforce 86/87, if a shop does ship worldwide and has them. Oh yeah, and i have never tried a keyboard with variable weightings. But i'm more into gaming with a bit chatting, and do some work on the PC, not typing only, lets say 65% gaming.
For the real work i have my laptop ;)!

Thanks

Jerri
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:57:22
Just to add, trying to find a 55g Topre Uniform without Windows keys may be a bit difficult...as they aren't exactly standard fare.

Tenkeyless 55g are available, but not so common (much more common than the Window Keyless 55g).

Also, 002 ordered a White 55g Tenkeyless from Korea (can't get them in Japan). It was at least double what your budget was (going through a broker I believe).
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 14:23:20
Oh, an idea came a few minutes ago in my mind. The thing is (and that is maybe my problem), i don't know, how exactly do 55grams of pressure "feel".

Then i grabbed some old money and put it on a key. Coins until the key pushed in. Then i took coins away until the key jumped up. Then i took an (don't know the word) letter balance?? Something where you could weigh 0-125grams.

It said this:
69 grams to push the button down, 23 grams until it goes back, can that be true?

Edit: Oh yeah and the budget is about 250Euro, i only wrote 250$ because i thought 250$ without shipping and handling :).
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 06 January 2011, 14:45:50
FWIW, variable weighting beat 55g in the poll. IMO, both are fine. The difference isn't THAT much.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 15:27:20
Shot an IBM Model M (german layout) on Ebay a few minutes ago. Maybe that helps me for my decision :). Then i can check out, if i like the Model M feel today the same way then back then.
The most "IBM-ish feel" have the Cherry blues, right?
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Thu, 06 January 2011, 15:36:12
Quote from: Jerri;274138
The most "IBM-ish feel" have the Cherry blues, right?


You could of course just order a Unicomp Cusomizer.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: 7bit on Thu, 06 January 2011, 15:52:56
Quote from: Jerri;274138
Shot an IBM Model M (german layout) on Ebay a few minutes ago. Maybe that helps me for my decision :). Then i can check out, if i like the Model M feel today the same way then back then.
The most "IBM-ish feel" have the Cherry blues, right?


*bzzzzzzzd!*

Wrong!

Buckling spring is a class of its own. Cherry blues are way too light to feel similar to buckling springs.

Clicky ALPS switches are almost silent compared to BS switches.

Get your Model M first and then just look for your next keyboard, and so on...

Welcome to geekhack

;-)
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 16:16:47
Hehe, yeah i know what you're mean (ok i'm thinking that i know it). Can't await to write on that 1988 beast.
I thought more of the "tactile point", not the Force you need to push them.

Yeah, but if i order a Unicomp customizer, i coul'd also use the real IBM :-).
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Thu, 06 January 2011, 16:21:34
Quote from: Jerri;274153
Yeah, but if i order a Unicomp customizer, i coul'd also use the real IBM :-).


Also a good idea.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 06 January 2011, 16:26:27
Model Ms are my personal favorite, I can't wait to buy another one someday...
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: laden3 on Thu, 06 January 2011, 16:30:48
Cherry keyboards with clear switches? If I am not mistaken, those are very easy to find in Germany.

The right guy to ask is sixty if you are from Germany. He has some keyboards without the windows key.

As for the Realforce keyboards, there are some key stoppers, but, IDK where to buy it except you get it for free from the 103U-UW....
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Thu, 06 January 2011, 16:39:35
Hm, if the model M is for myself the "truely awesomeness" and no keyboard comes close, then i think i search for an old Model M Space Saving Keyboard :).

Without Windows Key isn't "crucial", if you can turn it off (dip switch for example), it is okay, too. But thanks for the advise!
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Thu, 06 January 2011, 16:41:33
I wish I had a new one, I can't stand using old (used) keyboards.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: theferenc on Thu, 06 January 2011, 17:03:23
Quote from: bugfix;274165
I wish I had a new one, I can't stand using old (used) keyboards.


Then get a Unicomp. I have one, and it feels quite similar to my 4 '1401 model Ms and my 3196 terminal board.

I'm actually in the process of making something that I personally think trumps the space saver. Will post about it when I get it finalized.

But having a HHKB and several model M keyboards, I would say those two switch types trump anything Cherry has to offer. I have some cherry browns, and I've used cherry blues, clears, and blacks, and none of them come even close to how nice the BS and Topre switches feel, to me.

You might disagree, obviously. But the HHKB is all 45g, which, while lighter than my Customizer or my M, still feels "similar" to me. It's in quotes, but it doesn't actually feel anything alike -- no click, lighter, etc. But I can switch back and forth with 0 slow down, as opposed to trying to use the Cherry boards, which result in lots of mistypes, missed keys, and general unhappiness.

TBH, I doubt I will ever buy another type of keyboard. Now if I could only find a realforce with the right layout...
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Fri, 07 January 2011, 03:13:00
Quote from: theferenc;274181
Then get a Unicomp.


I already ordered one thanks to your advice in this thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13870

It's not here yet though :(
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Fri, 07 January 2011, 06:39:14
Hm, i saw some interesting things today when i searched google etc.

-A cherry White or "clear" switch, seems to be like a stiffer more tactile brown version, if i got that right ?
-Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2 (what an awesome name!) Keyboard with Topre 45g switches.

Hm, there aren't any Tenkeyless Designs with the white cherrys, or i didn't find any, they look nice on Paper. How do they feel versus cherry blues (besides no clicking)?

The Happy Hacking board looks really nice, too, got all what you need. The Keydesign is 100% like a normal keyboard, or am i wrong?
Have the Topre 45g switches a similar "light feel" like the Brown cherrys? Or are they stiffer?

Yeah i know, i've got questions over questions ;) .

Jerri
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 07 January 2011, 06:46:35
Quote from: Jerri
I want to find my perfect keyboard

Me too.  In fact, that's why we're all here.  Join the club.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Wed, 12 January 2011, 08:18:19
The Model M that i bought for the "find my keyboard" testing purposes hasn't arrived yet. But it's in the mail! Should be here tomorrow

Another thing that came in mind, was touch typing. Normally, when i type fast i type my own way, because for some reason my mind fights a bit against the normal touch typing, maybe because i'm a lefty?!?!!?
Anyways at the weekend i typed a few hours to find some things more about my typing, and the pressure for the keys i want to buy etc.

What's really weird is that:
When i touch type (with about 20 wpm), then the keyboard i use now (G15, Logitech) feels way to stiff and my wrists get stressed quite a bit after only a few sentences.
But when i type with about 6 fingers my own way (about  90wpm this weekend) then the stiff feeling is absoloutely ok.

Damn when i'm searching for answers i only get more confused :(.

Jerri

Edit:
Oh yeah and the keyboards on my list are at the moment HHKB and Filco Tenkeyless. The HHKB just seems to be awesome. Filco, yeah well, Cherry Brown vs Blue. If i get my Model M tomorrow, i'll respond here, how that feels to me, maybe then can somebody help me.
Title: First impressions IBM Model M
Post by: Jerri on Sun, 16 January 2011, 01:46:30
Hi there, i think now you can help me. I've got the IBM Model M for two days now, and i truely can say that this thing is totally awesome, much better than i remembered. I love the click, too, but clicky or non clicky isn't a point of buying, the feel is more important to me.

The Force you need to type is almost perfect. What i like, too is the tactile bump about the middle of the key travelling. I mean that you have almost 2mm without pushing the button.
I don't know where the deactivation point is, but in games like UT 2004 i have no issues to doubletap the keys for movements like Dodge Jumps or a wall Dodge+jump.

If i would buy a new keyboard with some Cherry or Topre switches, which switch would you recommend for me?

I  would like to have some tips, because i did not have a mechanical keyboard with topre or cherry switches and i did not found any in stores.
So please tell me, if somebody would pick a switch for me, which do you pick for me?

My guess when i read the diagrams is Cherry Blue, but i don't know if that's right.

Oh yeah and another question, for how much are the Space Saving IBM Model M selling on ebay?

Thanks very much

Jerri
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 16 January 2011, 02:10:16
Quote from: Jerri;277309
Normally, when i type fast i type my own way, because for some reason my mind fights a bit against the normal touch typing, maybe because i'm a lefty?!?!!?


i wonder if this has to do with the "backward" staggering of columns for the left hand, in standard touch typing. i find the asymmetry between left and right very strange.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14862&stc=1&d=1295165343)
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Sun, 16 January 2011, 03:40:57
Quote from: Jerri;279316

My guess when i read the diagrams is Cherry Blue, but i don't know if that's right.


You said that you liked the amount of force it takes to push a key on the Model M, so the Cherry Blue might be to light for you.

I have both a Unicomp Customizer and a Das Keyboard (with Blues) and while the Blue is also tactile, the keys are much lighter (I think ~10 grams). Also they don't "bounce back" as strongly as the buckling springs.

I do prefer the Blues for gaming though, while I prefer the buckling springs for typing.

I'll try a Topre next, btw.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: elef on Sun, 16 January 2011, 04:18:17
Quote from: msiegel;279321
i wonder if this has to do with the "backward" staggering of columns for the left hand, in standard touch typing. i find the asymmetry between left and right very strange.

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14862&stc=1&d=1295165343)


Does anyone type the way that image suggests? I physically can't. There's no way in hell I'm gonna reach z with my little finger, x with my ring finger or c with my middle finger without lifting off a couple of fingers from their home row positions. For starters, if I try to press C with my middle finger, it bumps into my index, so I have to lift off my index just to be able to reach there, but reaching there is really cumbersome and I have to move my whole hand.

I just press z with my ring finger, x with my middle finger and c with my index - much more natural movements, symmetrical with the right hand movements. I press B with my right index, I guess because I'm right handed so it feels more natural.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Sun, 16 January 2011, 08:03:38
Quote from: msiegel;279321
i wonder if this has to do with the "backward" staggering of columns for the left hand, in standard touch typing. i find the asymmetry between left and right very strange.

Yeah you got it, that's the point! When i type on the keyboard my way the "lines" on the schematic picture hit at the t or z (y in US Layout). Also i don't use my pinky much to type anything on the keyboard. The left pinky only hits Shift, Ctrl or Tab. On the other hand i don't even use the pinky. I always press enter or backspace with my right ringfinger. I hit the space bar with my left thumb.

So the Blue Cherrys are the most "IBM-ish" of the cherrys? On the diagram they've got the later tactile bump (against the browns). Hm they don't go as fast back as the buckling springs, good to know that.

As more as i think about the Buckling spring like feeling as less i want to buy a HHKB Pro 2. I think that feeling how you see it in the diagram (in one of the wiki threads) wouldn't suit me. Damn but that thing looks so pure and minimalistic, i love that design.

Hm how much KRO has the Model M?
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Sun, 16 January 2011, 08:05:14
Quote from: jerri;279380

hm how much kro has the model m?


2kro
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 16 January 2011, 09:50:41
I find the topres the easiest to switch back and forthwith the buckling springs.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: bugfix on Sun, 16 January 2011, 10:12:43
Quote from: theferenc;279405
I find the topres the easiest to switch back and forthwith the buckling springs.


Do you switch keyboards regularly?
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: lootbag on Sun, 16 January 2011, 10:26:23
Quote from: theferenc;279405
I find the topres the easiest to switch back and forthwith the buckling springs.

I have a 1087 with MX Browns and a HHKB I use on a regular basis.
Also have a Model M I rotate in and out.
MX Browns will be very different from the buckling spring feel, much lighter.
If anything, Topres will be somewhat closer but in no means are they anywhere near similar at all.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 16 January 2011, 16:31:43
Quote from: bugfix;279412

Do you switch keyboards regularly?
I do, actually. Home is a customizer, work varies between model m and my hhkb, which is also my travel board. So I tend to use both, in a given day.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 16 January 2011, 17:54:23
Quote from: kalrykh;279420
I type like that.  It's how I was taught when I learned touch typing in school.  It's really not difficult :P


same here, altho i've made my own adjustments of typing like this in conjunction with a matrix board layout.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Jerri on Mon, 17 January 2011, 07:58:20
A few minutes ago i ordered the Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry Blues. I'll give that keyboard a try. Thought all the time about the switches, but i think the Blues are the right ones.

I also bought a Razer Lachesis Refresh from a shop and a Razer Ironclad from another shop.
Oh and also bought from Razer directly Spare feet for the Lachesis and the Razer Gear rack. Then i can get rid of all those boxes that came with my mouse, headset, keyboard and so on.

Can't await the packages which are in the mail now ;).

Jerri

PS: Oh yeah, and i ordered a Red ESC Key, of course!

Edit: And i figured out, who the hell needs NKRO? The Model M is 2KRO as i know and i have no ghosting keys at all. I can do the most weird Movements in UT 2004 (=has more Movement options than UT III) and i can use all spells in WOW without any problems. Didn't try out Starcraft II, but i think i won't hit that much keys simultaneously. Maybe when i roll my face over the keyboard, then i need NKRO. Thought i need that, but for myself, i think it's not that necessary. For gaming a good mouse does more. :)
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: Eric5676 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 16:02:10
Very seriously considering the Rosewill RK-9000.

 I even have it in my Newegg cart right now with a USB-PS/2 adapter that I hope is the right kind.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196223

I sure wish Elite Keyboards would put forth some more concrete information soon about the Leopolds.
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: nigritude on Mon, 17 January 2011, 16:18:32
Quote
I sure wish Elite Keyboards would put forth some more concrete information soon about the Leopolds.

i know what you mean. the wait is killing me
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: nigritude on Mon, 17 January 2011, 17:52:08
thanks. just got a bonus of $2000 today. just waiting for some keyboards to blow it on!
Title: i want to find my perfect keyboard
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 17 January 2011, 18:05:20
Quote from: nigritude;280076
thanks. just got a bonus of $2000 today. just waiting for some keyboards to blow it on!


Congats! ItlnStln and I got bonuses too. Best thing to spend 'em on is keyboards and booze! Right Ripster?

(http://geekhack.org/image.php?u=1574&dateline=1274119548&type=profile)

Of course, Ripster doesn't get bonuses cuz he doesn't work "for the man". Unless you count his AAPL stock going up.