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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Aseral on Sat, 08 January 2011, 15:36:46
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So I was about to buy cherry mx blue keyboard which I would use for lots of gaming and typing but then I found out about Deck legend(tactile).
Which one would you think is best? I like tactile, putting presure and i dont really mind the noise.
I know not many ppl have used clears but...are there any of you here that used clears but went back to blues?
Thanks
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I personally prefer Clears, but that mostly boils down to a significant tactile feel that's also kind of cushiony at the bottom due to the stiffer springs (much closer to a Black), plus some people might appreciate the lack of noise (though it personally doesn't bother me). The release point also feels more aligned with the actuation point compared to the Blues.
Speaking of the actuation and tactile bump, it feels much closer to the top than on most switches. There's not a lot of pre-travel before you run into the tactile bump, and you can easily feel when you've passed it both ways (press and release). Electrical actuation/release lines up pretty well.
So why am I not using Clears? I simply can't afford them, and the Blues are a pretty good compromise to me overall.
As for the Blues, their actuation point feels closer to the middle, with more travel from the undepressed state. Electrical actuation and the tactile bump line up pretty well. As for the release, it does feel quite a bit higher, almost near the top, and electrically, it's just below the physical, tactile release. You likely won't notice the difference unless you release the key very gradually, though-most (if not all) of the time, you'll let up enough for it to quickly pass the electrical release and the physical release if you're like me.
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I just got my first mechanical keyboard, with browns, but I actually really wanted clears after reading around these forums (and others) extensively. They just sound really great, and I wish there was an appealing and reasonably priced keyboard with them, but sadly the deck legend just isn't my style.
Sorry, I know I'm not being helpful, just saying that from second hand information, clears sound pretty awesome to me too.
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To me, the Blue and the Clear feel almost like opposites.
The MX Blue is very light until the activation point where there is a sharp click to overcome and then it is light until the bottom.
The Clear has a large bump at the beginning until the activation point where you could describe it as there being a valley. Then the resistance increases sharply.
I find that the increasing resistance after the activation point on the Clears prevent me from bottoming out, and I like that very much. I bottom out far too often on the blues.
On the other hand, the Clears have some friction during the tactile bump, while the Blues feel very crisp.
Whether one of them is better than the other? ... I am really on the edge about that one. I once put my Clear keyboard away for the Blue, because of the Clears's friction. Then I find myself going back and forth between the two. They really are different. I think that the Perfect Keyboard Swich (TM) would be one that combines characteristics of both.
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I was looking for a board with clear, but once I had it, I didn't really like it. I guess im just more of an Alps/buckling spring guy. i guess for me it is black Alps>Buckling Spring>Blue>Clear>black
i have yet to try browns, reds, as well as most alps sliders.
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Are there any Cherry Clear keyboards with a UK layout available, preferrably with NKRO ? Thanks.
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Ascaii, you really prefer black alps to buckling spring? Interesting.
Clear is the only Cherry switch I like at all.
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Ok well, I think I'll try clears first(first mech keyboard!) and at some point in the future I'll try blues so I can compare :P
Just have to wait for Deck Legend Ice to come back in Stock :( Any ideas if these Deck keyboards appear ever in elitekeyboards.com?
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Ascaii, you really prefer black alps to buckling spring? Interesting.
Clear is the only Cherry switch I like at all.
To be honest im still in the process of finding out. Right now i prefer the black alps, but I haven't spent an entire day with the m yet. The M does have a great feel, but something isn't right yet. I think i just need to spend a few hours on it and get adjusted to the board before I can really judge it.
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I have a board with modded clears that have been greased, spring modded and sticker modded by the previous owner. It is probably one of the most enjoyable typing experiences. The pressure is just about right and they are more tactile than browns.
As for unmodded, stock clears... I don't really like those. I think they are too heavy, I get tired very quickly when using them. And coming from a Cherry MX Black lover that means a lot.
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I have a board with modded clears that have been greased, spring modded and sticker modded by the previous owner. It is probably one of the most enjoyable typing experiences. The pressure is just about right and they are more tactile than browns.
As for unmodded, stock clears... I don't really like those. I think they are too heavy, I get tired very quickly when using them. And coming from a Cherry MX Black lover that means a lot.
I always thought clears where lighter than blacks.
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I always thought clears where lighter than blacks.
The switch might not be heavier, but it feels heavier. Its hard to explain. It just really feels like a workout to type on them for a longer period of time.
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I have a board with modded clears that have been greased, spring modded and sticker modded by the previous owner.
What does a sticker mod do, make the switch casing more solid and rattle-dampened?
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I believe they are die-cut, adhesive-backed, thin foam or vinyl stickers which sit along the perimeter of where the two MX case shell halves meet. I'm dying to know what effect they really have, if any.
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To be honest I still have not entirely figured out the sticker. I believe it has to do with sound dampening.... or something. Its part of the Asian "default modding procedure". Basically its a tiny sticker made of a rubbery plastic foil that fits directly on the switch casing.
Edit: I remember now, since I asked before. They also stop dust from entering the switch case easily. This is the main reason why they apply it during cleaning sessions when they oil the stems.
(http://i.imgur.com/lnwhM.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/maDd7.jpg)
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You get tired when typing on clears? I've heard this a lot, about this switch, and about cherry blacks, but I never seem to hear it about buckling springs, which are by far the heaviest switches I've ever used.
Is it that they are so springy when typing on them, or what? Also, maybe I just spend too much time typing, as I've never found my hands getting tired from the keyboard. Pained, yes, but never tired (evil chicklets of death, I'm staring at you!).
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i can tell the definite 10g difference between a brown and clear 45 vs 55. I prefer light so i swapped out the spacebar switch (usually white/clear) to brown.
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Maybe I type wrong then, because I think cherry switches are all way too light, except for clears, which are acceptable.
Even the clears feel lighter than my HHKB, which should be the case, but they do anyway.
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To me, clears are about in BS territory in terms of overall force levels. Shorter travel though. Not a bad compromise switch when loudness levels are critical.
Blacks feel heavier to me. Maybe it's because there is no feedback and I tend to err on the side of more force than absolutely necessary to get characters to register reliably. (Did anyone ever build a 'board with linear switches and unobtrusive but noticeable "tick" type noise generation? I remember people didn't like the Zenith boards in terms of tone and sheer volume. Wait, Tandberg boards had this, but the version I have does not need it as its ML switches are tactile.)
I think the lighter force levels of blues have won me over for the time being. The next ones are BS, clears and MLs; never had any browns.
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To me, clears are about in BS territory in terms of overall force levels. Shorter travel though. Not a bad compromise switch when loudness levels are critical.
Blacks feel heavier to me. Maybe it's because there is no feedback and I tend to err on the side of more force than absolutely necessary to get characters to register reliably. (Did anyone ever build a 'board with linear switches and unobtrusive but noticeable "tick" type noise generation? I remember people didn't like the Zenith boards in terms of tone and sheer volume. Wait, Tandberg boards had this, but the version I have does not need it as its ML switches are tactile.)
I think the lighter force levels of blues have won me over for the time being. The next ones are BS, clears and MLs; never had any browns.
One interesting thing about the kinesis contour is that it has a 'software click' when the switch activates. This can be turned off. Why all keyboards don't have this simple thing is beyond me. It'd make possible a linear switch that informs of when it's activated.
FWIW, I find blacks ok.
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Sounds similar to the MX Ergo Clear tratment. I'm really interested in trying/buying a Ergo Clear board - or modify one myself, but it's not easy finding a board with Clears. Any suggestions or anybody selling?
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just buy a board you like w/ browns, and then get a used POS board for the clear stems. It's really the only way, unless you want to order new clear switches from Digi-Key or Mouser.
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Wow. The Clears seem to give you a nice BS like bump and help prevent you from bottoming out. Amazing...
This sounds like my perfect keyboard. I grabbed some Clears for a gaming 'board but if I don't mod. a typing 'board I am all over that Ducky Tenkeyless next year.
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Clears are overrated IMO. They get a bit of hype because they are harder to find, but I think most people would find them too stiff, as I do. They ARE stiffer than blacks at the tactile point (by 5-10g) but are about the same on the rest of the keypress. Clears tire me out faster than any other switch I have tried (and I have tried a LOT), but I do bottom out a lot.
Ergo clears is the way to get the best of both worlds (soft/non tiring but huge tactility).
The reason people dont get fatigued on buckling spring (much) is because the total force (derivative) is much less than a cherry black/clear. The force required to buckle the spring might be fairly high but the rest of the keypress is soft, but a cherry clear, which has constant high resistance, adds up to more. Who said calculus has no real world application?
The mechanism of a buckling spring also does not allow you to bottom out like clears do, which is probably the hidden cause of most, if not all, keyboard aches/injuries.
My point illustrated: Add the amount of space the yellow region takes up in both graphs and you get the total force expended pressing the key. The clear has a much larger region and therefore a much higher total force (even though the BS actuates with higher force).
First Cherry Clear
[ATTACH=CONFIG]27765[/ATTACH]
Next a force curve I made of a buckling spring
[ATTACH=CONFIG]27778[/ATTACH]
Note: Even if you are a perfect touch typist and never go past actuation point, the force is about the same.
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Are there any Cherry Clear keyboards with a UK layout available, preferrably with NKRO ? Thanks.
Cherry G80 3000-series is "cheap" as new, shouldn't be too hard to find one in UK, no NKRO though...
EDIT: They have changed their catalogs, there should be model out, but german might be only option now...
EDIT2: Not very clear what is made anymore, german 105-key is available, but need new caps for it...
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... The reason people dont get fatigued on buckling spring (much) is because the total force (derivative) is much less than a cherry black/clear ...
It's integral, not derivative. I also believe integrated force is called work.
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Ah, its over 10 years since I did calculus, you are probably right.
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Hi guys :)
I want to get a decent keyboard, but am not shure which switches I like better.
Also I don't have enough money to order three 200€ keyboards to try them out.
My Experience:
Highscreen Keyboard from my 386 - My favourite
Lenovo Business preferred Keyboard - too mushy, rubber dome
Apple Pro Keyboard - too stiff
I'm a fast typer, I like to play games too.
I tend to bottom out with the lenovo.
cheers
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holy necro-bump batman!
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Hi guys :)
I want to get a decent keyboard, but am not shure which switches I like better.
Also I don't have enough money to order three 200€ keyboards to try them out.
My Experience:
Highscreen Keyboard from my 386 - My favourite
Lenovo Business preferred Keyboard - too mushy, rubber dome
Apple Pro Keyboard - too stiff
I'm a fast typer, I like to play games too.
I tend to bottom out with the lenovo.
cheers
Welcome to Geekhack!
QFR without backlighting, Ducky Shine with (TKL should be out soon).
Some say tactility gets in the way of gaming, so reds (soft springs) or blacks (stiff springs).
Also, most people would have started a new thread - how did you find this old thread?
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Blue for click
Clear for tactile
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Clears have a much stiffer spring, it's not very noticeable at first, but give it a long day of typing and you can tell. You will adjust given time.
The bigger issue is the blue switches release point.
If you ride the actuation point to feather your movement, you can't do it on blues, the travel between actuation and reset is too far apart. Going down, both work similarly, coming up however, blues "float". The keycap is no longer in direct control of the actuation and needs to come nearly all the way back to the top before it resets. If you are typing, this is fine, you won't notice. If you mash keys while gaming, you probably won't either, but if you feather, you will HATE blues.