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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:39:59

Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:39:59: hello it seems no one has posted this yet :),

I just found out that KBC (renowned for their keycaps of course) has now officially confirmed their own 40% mech is coming and taking pre-orders starting tomorrow, some major features include (tried my best to translate from the KBC-china forums):

So..they've decided to call it ------- POKER?
Standard US layout, 61 keys, Cherry Black/Blue/Browns
double-layered PCB design
detachable USB cable
6KRO under USB
4 DIP switches
PBT key caps

Mixed Cherry Switches with the Pre-order version ONLY:
Cherry Blacks: Cherry Greys for the space bar, Cherry Red for ESC
Cherry Blues: Cherry Greens for the space bar, Cherry Teal(?）for ESC Cherry Browns: Cherry Whites for space bar, Cherry Reds for ESC

additional features include:
Double 1.25x keycap for left CTRL when you lock WIN
Multiple case colors coming later
More KBC keycaps coming later as well.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:40:36: (http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i340/geng87/IMG_9998.jpg)

````````
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i340/geng87/1101140108e3f0c73a088ef4c7.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:47:07: Oh ya the pre order price is RMB 499 (about $75 ish), they are announcing the taobao order page tomorrow.

,and aiming to ship the first batch by the 25th of this month.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: stuiees on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:51:06: sounds.... FLASHY! I like FLASHY!
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:52:51: (http://zachwang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/sd-297x300.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: theferenc on Mon, 10 January 2011, 19:56:57: That's sad, I can't see the pic. Any chance we can get a link to the original Chinese page?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 10 January 2011, 20:07:13: Quote from: theferenc;276385
That's sad, I can't see the pic. Any chance we can get a link to the original Chinese page?
Copy the image url directly into your browser.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 20:07:37: Quote from: theferenc;276385
That's sad, I can't see the pic. Any chance we can get a link to the original Chinese page?

http://bbs.kbc-china.com/thread-4657-1-1.html

there you go

picture uploaded to geekhack for those who can't see.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: toast on Mon, 10 January 2011, 20:08:27: Pic didn't show up for me either, grabbed it out of page source.

http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110111/11011107246299d780108001e2.jpg
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: kidchunks on Mon, 10 January 2011, 20:14:30: Quote from: ripster;276376
Yaay. DIP Switches.

HHKB clones! More the merrier!

At a fraction of the price!

Looks nice, but I'll pass until a few review it.

Obook is going to have a field day with this one I reckon!
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 21:16:56: Quote from: kidchunks;276397
At a fraction of the price!

Looks nice, but I'll pass until a few review it.

Obook is going to have a field day with this one I reckon!

The taobao page was up just now and the first 50 are gone in about 10 minutes, the reviews should be out in a couple of days.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 21:25:11: Quote from: ripster;276424
Yeah but all the reviews will be in Chinese.

Can't even keep Blue and Green straight.

I'll try to translate some reviews when they are out,

about the green and blues..ya... the Chinese are calling the cherry blues "青" , which literally means teal.. kinda confusing
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: kidchunks on Mon, 10 January 2011, 22:20:42: Quote from: manfaux;276423
The taobao page was up just now and the first 50 are gone in about 10 minutes, the reviews should be out in a couple of days.

Damn, didn't think these were jordans.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: iMav on Mon, 10 January 2011, 22:24:38: Can someone link to the relevant taobao pages?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 22:32:05: Quote from: iMav;276440
Can someone link to the relevant taobao pages?

http://item.taobao.com/auction/item_detail.htm?item_num_id=3793885866

http://item.taobao.com/auction/item_detail.htm?item_num_id=7593882416

http://item.taobao.com/auction/item_detail.htm?item_num_id=3309967612

for Cherry browns/blacks/blues receptively, the pages are up but they are all oos right now.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 10 January 2011, 22:44:34: If it only had a trackpointer...
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 10 January 2011, 23:04:21: Quote from: TexasFlood;276444
If it only had a trackpointer...

lol, the Miniguru?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 10 January 2011, 23:13:00: so, anyone fast enough to grab one?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: theferenc on Mon, 10 January 2011, 23:44:27: This definitely reminds more of the miniguru than the HHKB. What some people can't seem to get is that it isn't size that makes a HHKB clone. It's also layout.

Give me cherry clear with the HHKB layout, and I would consider it. Give me BS with the HHKB layout, and I'm pulling out my wallet.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Tue, 11 January 2011, 00:24:08: I'm actually kind of interested in one of these, if they ever get not so hard to get... I'm surprised they aren't offering an MX Red board also, sounds like they can get reds.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Tue, 11 January 2011, 02:22:44: I stumbled upon a Taobao page with these KBC 40% yesterday, but didn't think it was special as there were no pictures of the keyboard. Looks like an interesting one tho. I might pick one up if they get more easily available.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Tue, 11 January 2011, 03:49:23: :d:d:d
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: taswyn on Tue, 11 January 2011, 03:54:51: Quote
Double 1.25x keycap for left CTRL when you lock WIN

sold on that & browns almost alone =P Except for it being already sold out =( And except for having *just* bought a Cherry 8200 that's not even here yet.

... I wonder if those are standard 1×2Cherry matrix board keys? That would fit on any other Cherry board with that sized control and win keys? =0
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: urlwolf on Tue, 11 January 2011, 04:53:19: where can we see the layout?
also, are the switches PCB-mounted (ie. hackable)?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: sixty on Tue, 11 January 2011, 04:59:29: Quote from: bakageta;276492
I'm actually kind of interested in one of these, if they ever get not so hard to get... I'm surprised they aren't offering an MX Red board also, sounds like they can get reds.

Usually red stock in boards like the Ducky and this is from desoldered G80s. :cool: That is why they are always used in "limited editions".
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Tue, 11 January 2011, 05:23:33: Quote from: urlwolf;276576
where can we see the layout?
also, are the switches PCB-mounted (ie. hackable)?

It sounds like pcb-mounted from the google translate description... It says double pcb, no plate. I definitely plan to pick one of these up once they're not instantly selling out and once they're using the same switch for every key, hopefully in a nice white.

I'm not a huge fan of linear switches, so it'll be browns or blues for me... I already have one brown board with another on the way, so I'd like to get blues, but I already know I have issues with doubletaps on blues, which means this would be purely for typing... Definitely my ideal portable layout though, ANSI standard in HHKB's size is perfect for hauling around without having to get used to a different layout.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Tue, 11 January 2011, 05:42:39: they will post a link in KBC forum on 8 PM (+8). Only 5 browns,2 blacks, 2 blues are available. be quick.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: iMav on Tue, 11 January 2011, 06:05:55: Quote from: theferenc;276475
What some people can't seem to get is that it isn't size that makes a HHKB clone. It's also layout.

This.

When I'm using a keyboard other then my HHKB, I feel like I am missing keys. The HHKB layout is truly genius IMHO.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: Fiasco on Tue, 11 January 2011, 10:01:00: CHERRY TEAL means as below:
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: urlwolf on Tue, 11 January 2011, 14:12:45: What time frame are we talking about with 'taking preorders'?
I have a friend coming to EU from China in 20 days...
What does the chococ have over this apart from the NRKO-in-us? I like this better because it's not plate-mounted...
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Tue, 11 January 2011, 15:31:22: Quote from: urlwolf;276909
What time frame are we talking about with 'taking preorders'?
I have a friend coming to EU from China in 20 days...
What does the chococ have over this apart from the NRKO-in-us? I like this better because it's not plate-mounted...

the pre-order is done and finished, no more orders can be placed until Jan 25th, which is when mass production model will start shipping I believe.

well this is a 40% board, lacking some of the keys compared to a choc mini, definitely more portable than the choc mini i'd say. (0.5 KG, a little over a pound in weight)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: calavera on Tue, 11 January 2011, 15:51:59: I never understood the title of this post. Are we talking about 40% discount for pre-orders or am I missing something here?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 11 January 2011, 15:53:28: The "40%" is the name of a keyboard KBC is putting out that is around the size of the HHKB (about 40% of the keys on 104-key layout). I think they renamed it to "Poker."
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 11 January 2011, 16:03:42: Quote from: laden3;276606
they will post a link in KBC forum on 8 PM (+8). Only 5 browns,2 blacks, 2 blues are available. be quick.

Laden3, if you are going to order one tonight, order two, I'll drive out to your place to buy one off of you :)

Hope these become more widely available. Although I think the choc mini might win cause it has arrow keys.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 11 January 2011, 16:07:08: Looks interesting... >.>
Seems I have to delay my taobao order (white engraved KBC caps and white Ducky 108s)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 11 January 2011, 16:28:51: Quote from: TexasFlood;276444
If it only had a trackpointer...

Quote from: manfaux;276454
lol, the Miniguru?

Exactly...
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Tue, 11 January 2011, 16:37:43: Quote from: ripster;276977
"Poker" I can handle. I think I once did the numbers and 40% wasn't technically accurate.

I think it's more a -40% board, it's technically closer to 60% of the keys of a standard board.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: guilleguillaume on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:22:15: I would want one of these for sure when the info explain us How the Layout is working.

Anyway I find a bit disgusting the way they did the pre-orders just because this mean nobody will be able to get those mixed Cherry in the Keyboard anymore I supose and that's bad. It will be better if all the keyboards have those mixed Cherry inside.

I have a lot of pics from this keyboard and didn't know finally was going to come out.

If I'm not wrong:

(http://i.imgur.com/8aYN7.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/MDBGw.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/cqIHr.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/xsjf0.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/MgopA.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:23:29: If it's PCB mounted, mixed cherries is very easy to achieve.

Honestly, having a mixed cherry board is a little crazy, a huge gimmick in my opinion.

Although I wonder what is meant by cherry teal switch.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: calavera on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:24:43: if it only had arrow keys....
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:26:01: bakageta, I was just going to say that. The HHKB has 60 keys. This has 61 keys. A "normal" keyboard has 104 keys (ANSI). So this is 1 key shy of 60%: so 40% fewer keys than normal.

It might also be 40% of the normal footprint...but I can't say that for sure without measurements.

Anyway, has anyone noticed that ESC is on the second layer? That's truly awful, if they are going after the HHKB market, as some here seem to think. This is on top of the lack of a proper layout.

I still don't understand why, if they are going to go moving things around, they don't put the control key back where the Gods intended it to be: to the left of the A key.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:31:22: It has embedded arrow keys. Interestingly enough, on the WASD keys.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:43:32: Quote from: theferenc;277038
bakageta, I was just going to say that. The HHKB has 60 keys. This has 61 keys. A "normal" keyboard has 104 keys (ANSI). So this is 1 key shy of 60%: so 40% fewer keys than normal.

It might also be 40% of the normal footprint...but I can't say that for sure without measurements.

Anyway, has anyone noticed that ESC is on the second layer? That's truly awful, if they are going after the HHKB market, as some here seem to think. This is on top of the lack of a proper layout.

I still don't understand why, if they are going to go moving things around, they don't put the control key back where the Gods intended it to be: to the left of the A key.

im morr worried about the Delete key position, as pictured here:

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110111/1101110647aabe1d4da26d7d4a.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Tue, 11 January 2011, 17:46:54: Quote from: elbowglue;276983
Laden3, if you are going to order one tonight, order two, I'll drive out to your place to buy one off of you :)

Hope these become more widely available. Although I think the choc mini might win cause it has arrow keys.

I only have 1... and it isn't confirmed yet until I actually find a way to pay them and the keyboard actually arrived...
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 11 January 2011, 19:36:50: It is sort of an odd place, but I sort of see why they did it. It keeps what I think of as the "navigation block" all together.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Tue, 11 January 2011, 21:30:34: We call keyboards like 1087 '80%', if cut the 'arrows and del pgup hom' from 80% we call it 60%, if cut the F1~F12 from 60% we call it 40%.
If cut the '1~0 backspace' from 40% we call it freaky 30%...
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 11 January 2011, 21:33:31: imsto when are you going to ship to your adoring geekhacker buddies :D
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: aegrotatio on Tue, 11 January 2011, 21:57:08: My HHKB Lite and Lite 2 are seeing heavy daily duty and wearing out fast.
I need an affordable replacement.
Could this keyboard be it?

How can I order?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Tue, 11 January 2011, 22:00:30: Quote from: WhiteRice;277159
imsto when are you going to ship to your adoring geekhacker buddies :D

I will ship batch by batch except the one in Finland, I will send it directly.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Tue, 11 January 2011, 23:23:59: Quote from: theferenc;277038
bakageta, I was just going to say that. The HHKB has 60 keys. This has 61 keys. A "normal" keyboard has 104 keys (ANSI). So this is 1 key shy of 60%: so 40% fewer keys than normal.

It might also be 40% of the normal footprint...but I can't say that for sure without measurements.

Anyway, has anyone noticed that ESC is on the second layer? That's truly awful, if they are going after the HHKB market, as some here seem to think. This is on top of the lack of a proper layout.

I still don't understand why, if they are going to go moving things around, they don't put the control key back where the Gods intended it to be: to the left of the A key.

I wonder if the DIP switches might change things like caps to ctrl, and ` to esc... Anyway, I don't see what you mean about "if they're going to go moving things around," it looks to me like the top layer is your typical ANSI layout, no keys moved, just right alt replaced with Fn to access the removed keys.

Layout looks fine to me, coming from a typical Filco tenkeyless... I'm not certain how I feel about esc on the second layer, but I'd have to use it first to see for sure. If these get produced in enough quantity that I can grab a couple later, I'll probably pick up a blue and a black, and ghetto-mod the black to reds, just to try them out.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Tue, 11 January 2011, 23:40:54: The DIP change things like caps to ctrl, and freeze the win key, etc.
The esc might be activated by Fn+q, then ~ would be the ESC key.
When press Fn+space, right ctrl,alt,shift,win will become the up down left and right.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: taswyn on Tue, 11 January 2011, 23:51:42: Quote
Layout looks fine to me, coming from a typical Filco tenkeyless... I'm not certain how I feel about esc on the second layer, but I'd have to use it first to see for sure. If these get produced in enough quantity that I can grab a couple later, I'll probably pick up a blue and a black, and ghetto-mod the black to reds, just to try them out.

Esc on the second layer by default doesn't faze me. When I stop to think about it, I rarely use it anyway, even when coding. I actually use tilde *far* more, for all sorts of things. I would probably get a programmable 20-30 key pad to go with something like this which doesn't have arrow and nav keys exposed on the primary layer somewhere, so it's not really an issue to me where they're placed on the secondary layer. I'm *really* glad that they went with the Fn key approach instead of using numlock to expose the second layer, as I've had tenkeys/numberpads that slaved to the main keyboard's numlock setting before... or vice versa, which can be a real pain.

Is it perfect? probably not. Depending on what the dip switches do much may hopefully be solved for some who dislike it as is. But either way, to me it looks great for that price.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Wed, 12 January 2011, 00:11:11: Yeah, I'm fairly sure I use ` and ~ more than esc, but then, I don't know how annoying it'd be until I sat down and tried it. LOVE the Fn instead of numlock, for the exact same reason you mentioned. Looks like a great design at a great price, if they're actually making a profit on this, I think they'll do well.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Wed, 12 January 2011, 00:11:28: there's not a keyboad that everyone like it.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 12 January 2011, 01:00:04: True. And if there's a DIP to swap caps and control, that solves one of my issues. But ESC belongs to the left of the 1, and `~ at the right end of that row, with backspace below it.

Yes, I'm a UNIX beard. This is one of the reasons I like the BS keyboards so much...when you bolt mod, you can also change the layout -- without soldering.

If these are plate mounted, that just isn't possible. If they are PCB mounted, it's maybe possible to rearrange keys, but difficult.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Wed, 12 January 2011, 01:07:57: So, a programmable 40 is the perfect keyboad.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Wed, 12 January 2011, 02:17:17: Quote from: imsto;277167
I will ship batch by batch except the one in Finland, I will send it directly.

Wait, you have someone in Finland buying one of these? Tell me his user name and I'll try to arrange shipping for us together.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Wed, 12 January 2011, 03:08:09: Quote from: db_Iodine;277263
Wait, you have someone in Finland buying one of these? Tell me his user name and I'll try to arrange shipping for us together.

That's you... :P
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Wed, 12 January 2011, 03:36:30: Quote from: imsto;277267
That's you... :P

Me, myself and I. I'm getting psychotic.. Thanks for reminding me.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: WhiteRice on Wed, 12 January 2011, 08:09:59: Do you have a US connect yet? If not, I would be willing to arrange things.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Wed, 12 January 2011, 08:25:43: Quote from: whiterice;277307
do you have a us connect yet? If not, i would be willing to arrange things.

？？？
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 12 January 2011, 08:27:20: I think he's asking about acting as a US distributor for the 40%. That way, we could all order ours, you send them to White Rice, and he would distribute them to the US buyers.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Wed, 12 January 2011, 19:12:45: I see。。。。
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 12 January 2011, 20:05:48: Hey, you are Chinese and support the Milan football club? Cool/interesting =)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Wed, 12 January 2011, 23:42:23: Quote from: keyboardlover;277635
Hey, you are Chinese and support the Milan football club? Cool/interesting =)

yes, why not. lol
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 13 January 2011, 00:30:53: Anybody from Italy?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: taswyn on Thu, 13 January 2011, 05:20:58: Non mi venga da li, me ho vissuta in Italia per cinque anni, molte anni fa. Communque devo dire che Juve e il migliore campo di sempre =P
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 07:04:52: My parents lived in Italy before I was born, and my grandparents were born in Sicily. I feel like a bad Italian, though, since I don't speak the language. I understand it, and I can read it, but I don't speak it too well.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: Laggy-gaga on Thu, 13 January 2011, 07:10:37: I got one
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:16:07: Change your nick to "Lucky-gaga".

Post a review when you get the board, please :)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:22:41: Quote from: db_Iodine;277830
Change your nick to "Lucky-gaga".

Post a review when you get the board, please :)

This. I am really interested to see how the layout works. It would be nice if it were essentially a Cherry brown HHKB.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:33:15: Parlo poco Italiano =)
I'm Italian-American like itlnstln. Roots are Neapolitan.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:39:35: Neapolitan, huh? Yum.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Neapolitan.jpg/300px-Neapolitan.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:42:31: Best food in the world. Been to Italy twice but not Naples yet. My grandparents aren't too happy about that.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: PikachuDX on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:43:47: #8GE#%P&quthK+M27q_Pk,O0^29HOmxP1MA(D=+khd9p9_Yf-_
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:47:33: Yeah, I need to make a pilgrimage to Italy. I'll probably end up doing it in the next couple of years. My grandparents aren't too happy that my sister and I don't know Italian, either, but we weren't raised with it in the house. I still have family in Sicily, and my grandparents used to visit them occasionally, but I have never met them. It sucks, 'cause that could be a cheap place to crash.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 13 January 2011, 09:25:53: I want to take a travel to Italy. Esp Milan.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 13 January 2011, 09:36:36: Nice. I have family (that I know of) in Rome and Naples. Haven't gone to see them yet though. My family in Rome doesn't speak English :\

Quote from: imsto

I want to take a travel to Italy. Esp Milan.

I've been there...it's a cool city but not my favorite place to visit in Italy. My favorites (that I've been to) are Tuscany, Florence and Venice in that order. I've heard that the Lake Como area of Milan is awesome though, but I haven't been there.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 13 January 2011, 09:50:09: I just want to see AC Milan, and have not any other ideas about the other city....
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: sixty on Thu, 13 January 2011, 10:08:54: I am also receiving a sample of this. Expect a detailed review before the end of the month. I will be taking it apart too, of course :wink:
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 10:09:08: Quote from: ripster;277889
After seeing "Gomorrah" Italy and Naples seems less romantic.

Salo did the same for me.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 13 January 2011, 11:17:16: (http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110114/1101140108045bad6bd6b49775.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110114/1101140108e3f0c73a088ef4c7.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110114/110114011000f7d8b30467047e.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110114/1101140110084f60402c4abf92.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Thu, 13 January 2011, 11:20:19: Quote from: sixty;277891
I am also receiving a sample of this. Expect a detailed review before the end of the month. I will be taking it apart too, of course :wink:

Really looking forward to your review.

Can anyone confirm that this keyboard will have another batch? I'd really like to try one myself.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: gore on Thu, 13 January 2011, 12:13:19: Quote from: itlnstln;277893
Salo did the same for me.

Was never expecting a Salo reference on this forum...
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 12:24:09: Quote from: gore;277981
Was never expecting a Salo reference on this forum...

Says the person named "gore." This was not the first, but there aren't many. There's a reason for that if you have never seen Salo.

The subtitle might give you a hint.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 January 2011, 13:06:35: Quote from: ripster;278010
I don't think I'll be allowed to watch that. I got in trouble last night for watching "The Notorious Betty Page". My teenager always walks in at the wrong time.

Don't worry, you don't want to watch it. Your life will be a little better for it.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Thu, 13 January 2011, 13:09:38: Quote from: sixty;277891
I am also receiving a sample of this. Expect a detailed review before the end of the month. I will be taking it apart too, of course :wink:

Can't wait!
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: jaynoon on Sun, 23 January 2011, 20:49:51: KBC Poker, you're my only hope. The noppoo ended up being a little more pooey than advertised on OS X.

These boards look amazing..
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Sun, 23 January 2011, 21:26:01: this board will work fine on MAC OS.
6kro
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 23 January 2011, 21:52:42: Quote from: itlnstln;277992
Says the person named "gore." This was not the first, but there aren't many. There's a reason for that if you have never seen Salo.

Ironic that there's very little actual gore in the film. In all seriousness though, it's NOT a good movie. There are no redeeming qualities in it. IMO it's one of the worst films I've ever seen.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: godofdeath on Sun, 23 January 2011, 22:00:10: so where you can pre order with the discount i wouldnt mind a cheap hhkb
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Sun, 23 January 2011, 23:04:00: Quote from: ripster;283687
If I was High Expectations Asian Father I would have named this keyboard the 110%.

*groan*
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: sixty on Mon, 24 January 2011, 00:32:54: My sample for review was supposed to ship on the 22nd, not sure if its out yet or not. Last I heard from the KBC guys was that they were very busy in getting the first batch out.

From the looks of it, none of the local guys in Taiwan or China have received one yet either, so I'm guessing there might be some slight delays.

I'm looking forward to receiving it soon and hoping to still get a review out before February.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 24 January 2011, 02:24:57: the promised ship date is the 25th of Jan, unless it is shipped directly from Taiwan (ligo)

someone is supposed to get one by now, but, due to some unexpected circumstances (these always happen), the delivery is delayed, HAHAHAHA
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Mon, 24 January 2011, 02:39:44: the official release of poker will be at early of march, if i'm not mistaken.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 24 January 2011, 02:46:03: yea, but sixty gets 1 of the first batch too. "enjoy your feeling"... -_- it just sounds so... strange
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Mon, 24 January 2011, 02:48:54: the first batch haven't ship yet?
i thought 25th, the 2nd batch will be shipped.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 24 January 2011, 02:52:09: Updated the OP with some new pictures taken from the KBC forums.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:04:12: Quote from: fssbzz;283761
the first batch haven't ship yet?
i thought 25th, the 2nd batch will be shipped.

well... probably shipped from Taiwan to the distributors in China/Taiwan, but definitely not to the people who bought them...

@manfaux

在美国人 doesn't make sense
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:07:09: Quote from: laden3;283765
well... probably shipped from Taiwan to the distributors in China/Taiwan, but definitely not to the people who bought them...

on 19 Jan, 2nd batch, only 50 are out right? and is sold out within a few minutes.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:09:58: that was the pre-order, and if I am not mistaken, only 18 was offered on taobao, most of them was reserved -_-'''
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:11:09: ya, the shipment for 25th, should be for this pre order batch on 19th jan.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:12:59: Quote from: laden3;283765
well... probably shipped from Taiwan to the distributors in China/Taiwan, but definitely not to the people who bought them...

@manfaux

在美国人 doesn't make sense

国人 = we chinese people :)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:15:14: oh... damn... sorry for ignorance... I need a better Mandarin teacher
but... 同志 means gay, right? :biggrin:
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:21:10: Quote from: laden3;283773
oh... damn... sorry for ignorance... I need a better Mandarin teacher
but... 同志 means gay, right? :biggrin:

lol ya, in a humorous way. I'm not a gay geekhacker though, just looking for comrades.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Mon, 24 January 2011, 03:29:27: 在美国人,有一起战斗的同志吗 what's that really mean anyway? lol
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: Cypher on Mon, 24 January 2011, 11:53:54: Quote from: fssbzz;283777
在美国人,有一起战斗的同志吗 what's that really mean anyway? lol

It sounds like "In America, are there any war comrades?"
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Tue, 25 January 2011, 08:49:27: Quote
Show Image
(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_110125/1101252152002cbe88df1e405c.jpg)

键盘爱好者是用键盘来表达自己的想法传递我们的理念首先向大家介绍的就是POKER的语法：
POKER有四套“语言系统” 其中Fn是这套系统的核心组成部分
1.键帽正面的同刻——是最普通最好理解的大家所见即所得
2.键帽侧面的同刻——需要配合Fn来使用字体用激光刻的紫红色字体标明这种紫红刻也是PBT激光刻字的旗舰产品
这种语法下与Fn配合的侧刻键位是即按即得松开按键后没有状态的保持如果不再配合Fn键
试用那么单独按有侧刻的按键所反应的仅仅是正面同刻的所标示的键位
3.Fn侧面左下的实心方块——与相邻的空格右下角实心方块相呼应他们两个一定能够发生“化学反应”
在这种语法下与Fn配合的按键将激活一个状态即使松开按键被激活的某个状态也将一直
保持下去直到再一次与Fn配合关闭这个状态举个例子：好比键盘常见的锁win状态一样
DK9008 激活锁win状态是：Fn+F9 被激活锁win后 F9的灯一直亮着这表示win键一直
被锁住的状态直到再按下Fn+F9关闭锁win
4.Fn侧面右下的空心方块——与键盘左上的Q键位侧刻的空心方块相呼应他们两个也一定能够发生“化学反应”
与第三个“语法”相似 Fn+Q也是某一个状态的激活（或者关闭）为了与Fn+空格区分开
所以用了空心刻
下面开始介绍POKER最有想象力的一个设计（专利设计）
上面第三个“语法”谈到Fn+空格激活了一个状态这个状态就是：当先按下Fn再按下空格的时候（注意有先后顺序）那么左下角的
win app（菜单键）ctrl和右shift 将被切换成上下左右状态也就是大家在这四个键位侧面看见的侧刻方向标识！与第三个“语法”
暗合的是侧刻的方向键也是采用了实心雕刻！
这样设计的好处是：在61键位的极小区域内实现了独立方向键
第二个独特的设计是：Fn+Q
大家看见了 Q的侧刻是一个空心的方块并且这个方块是由一大一小两个方块组成与Fn侧刻右下的方块的刻字方式是一致的
细心的朋友一定注意到了 ~键也就是键盘的最左上角的那个键位侧面刻的ESC 也是一种空心刻字的方式（即一大一小两个ESC组成）
这种方式与Q和Fn右下的方块侧刻是同一种！他们的化学反应方程式是：Fn（先按下不松开）+Q（后按下）=激活~键变成ESC状态
这样设计的好处是：对于不用或者不常用到的~键而常用到ESC的用户来说有了自由的选择当然对于~键经常用到的朋友来说
我们另外有Fn+~=ESC的支持不过这个变换适用第二种“语法”

new features added to poker
wait for laden3 to translate.
he got better mandarin translation.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Tue, 25 January 2011, 08:57:25: Quote from: fssbzz;284418
new layout is out for the Poker.
wait for laden3 to translate.
he got better mandarin translation.

Completely new layout or what?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 25 January 2011, 09:04:32: Looking at the pic, I'm not too sure I like that. For one, I think it would be better if Del were not a second layer key. Not to sound like a broken record, but I think using anything other than the HHKB layout (or Lite, even) will be a big miss on a keyboard this size.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Tue, 25 January 2011, 09:44:25: Quote from: db_Iodine;284427
Completely new layout or what?

wait, no
not layout.
is the add on features.
more features on poker.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Tue, 25 January 2011, 10:57:20: Well yeah, google translate isn't so good when it comes to translating Chinese to english. Looking forward to someone translating those features better than google.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Tue, 25 January 2011, 18:29:03: Quote from: fssbzz;284418
new features added to poker
wait for laden3 to translate.
he got better mandarin translation.

I don’t have the brain cells to translate it word by word (some words just don’t make sense in English… it’s just a PITA…)
1.   Laser engraved black-on-black legends - - Works like a normal keyboard…
2.   Purplish-red laser engraved legends on the anterior surface of the keycaps - - activated when Fn is pressed, Fn + ~ = ESC (except for the solid squares and the hollow squares. The cursors on the bottom right??? Not sure, isn’t mentioned)
3.   Solid squares on the left of the Fn key and the right of the spacebar - - (press Fn first, then spacebar) cursors on the bottom right is activated
Hollow squares on the right of the Fn key and the Q key - - (press Fn first, then Q) ~ becomes ESC (ESC becomes ~??? Not sure since it isn’t mentioned)
Some informations are loss during the process of translation, but, these informations are not related to the layout of the keyboard.

more pics here
http://bbs.kbc-china.com/thread-4827-1-1.html

p/s: some informations in the picture that shows the Fn + space is wrong... the Ls should be replaced with Rs

forgot to mention the DIP switches... (they are on ON obviously, OFF will reverse the effect)

1. win lock
2. alt and win switch places (1. will lock the win key instead of alt)
3. caps lock and control switch places
4. win_L becomes Fn (if 1. is on, this Fn will be locked) (if 4 and 2 are ON while 1 and 3 are OFF, it's [control][alt][Fn])
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: laden3 on Tue, 25 January 2011, 18:48:10: Quote from: itlnstln;284428
Looking at the pic, I'm not too sure I like that. For one, I think it would be better if Del were not a second layer key. Not to sound like a broken record, but I think using anything other than the HHKB layout (or Lite, even) will be a big miss on a keyboard this size.

Well... IMO KBC tries to minimize the alteration on the ANSI layout. The positioning of the Fn key is different from HHKB too.

Last but not least, the designers of this keyboard are people who type Chinese characters daily, so, you will find the page up and page down near the Fn (- and = replaces page down and page up =P, probably not commonly used)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Thu, 27 January 2011, 09:47:42: new features poker is out.
different looks.
+ new PCB
pictures taken from here.
http://bbs.kbc-china.com/thread-4846-1-1.html
u probably need to register to see the picture.
so i upload it here.
green switch on space bar, dark blue switch on esc

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2827/qqa5d6dcom1101272047a58.jpg)
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2716/qqa5d6dcom1101272048cdf.jpg)
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/529/qqa5d6dcom11012720223b9.jpg)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4070/qqa5d6dcom11012720374e6.jpg)
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4352/qqa5d6dcom11012720580ca.jpg)
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8643/qqa5d6dcom11012721069db.jpg)
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2632/qqa5d6dcom110127211150b.jpg)
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3926/qqa5d6dcom110127211490b.jpg)
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9347/qqa5d6dcom110127211491e.jpg)
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5646/qqa5d6dcom110127214455e.jpg)
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1231/qqa5d6dcom1101272033696.jpg)
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4176/qqa5d6dcom1101272043463.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: sixty on Thu, 27 January 2011, 09:50:17: Looking good. Are those dipswitches on the bottom?
Ripster will not be amused.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: fssbzz on Thu, 27 January 2011, 11:21:39: even better photos here. LOL
http://bbs.kbc-china.com/thread-4845-1-1.html

(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea0963.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea0976.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea0982.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea1606.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea0999.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea1611.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea1607.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea1609.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea1608.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/cn.engadget.com/media/2011/01/yea0993.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 27 January 2011, 11:44:46: I'll buy the keyboard if she's included!
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Thu, 27 January 2011, 12:07:19: That is one sexy keyboard. The Chinese school girl seems to like it too.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 27 January 2011, 12:15:58: If the first thing you noticed was the keyboard...

(http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/doing_it_wrong_bike.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: iMav on Thu, 27 January 2011, 14:13:17: She definitely looks young...too young.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 27 January 2011, 14:31:11: @fssbzz - any photos of her holding up a photo ID plz?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 27 January 2011, 20:24:35: Quote from: ripster;285884
The Chinese are reminding me more of the Japanese day by day.

lol
哈哈哈哈哈哈
because the Japanese AV.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Thu, 27 January 2011, 20:33:11: Quote from: imsto;286046
lol
哈哈哈哈哈哈
because the Japanese AV.

by AV he meant porno :)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 27 January 2011, 22:26:54: Quote from: manfaux;286049
by AV he meant porno :)

:music:
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 27 January 2011, 22:28:51: My friend from Congo said, they like tools.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Thu, 27 January 2011, 23:23:42: some kind of tools like this.......lol
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: calavera on Sat, 29 January 2011, 00:08:18: alright, too lazy to read the entire thread. So are these out or what? I would definitely buy this if they were. Glad I didn't buy the choco mini.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Sat, 29 January 2011, 01:49:50: The first batch was just out a few days ago and the second batch is in the making. It will be quite some time before these will reach the US or Europe, if they ever will.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: sixty on Sun, 30 January 2011, 10:31:14: (http://imgur.com/KCpfg.jpg)

Sample will be in transit tomorrow. If customs don't take a year to stare at the board, expect a review in the upcoming week.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: db_Iodine on Sun, 30 January 2011, 11:33:02: Finally! I'm really looking forward to that review.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 31 January 2011, 09:12:29: Damn, that's a hot-looking 'board. I think I am going to have get one if/when they become available.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: calavera on Mon, 31 January 2011, 10:41:46: How would one in the US go about ordering one? Go through taobao?
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: imsto on Mon, 31 January 2011, 11:03:09: If it's available I would try to make a group buy here. lol
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: RiGS on Mon, 31 January 2011, 12:34:50: I can imagine that a foot switch binded to the fn command would be very nice combo with this keyboard.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: Mazora on Mon, 31 January 2011, 18:18:14: Sorry to break the fun here but SHE is actually a HE :

http://www.tokyohive.com/2010/09/kayo-sato-reveals-her-true-self/
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.shreet.com/userfiles/2010/09/36/09/images/kayo-satoh-kayo-police-019.jpg&imgrefurl=http://geekhack.org/showthread.php%3Fp%3D283608&usg=__j4szx0djC6hbXqQoBBFhzr7cIAY=&h=300&w=450&sz=27&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=-aaaDgf226C-_M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=173&ei=_09HTcTNHNOtgQfV-9XNAQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkbc%2Bpoker%2Bkeyboard%2Bgirl%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D912%26bih%3D772%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C94&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=597&vpy=150&dur=4949&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=209&ty=93&oei=_09HTcTNHNOtgQfV-9XNAQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&biw=912&bih=772

Nice kb though. ^^
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: Mazora on Mon, 31 January 2011, 18:30:18: Not a chance. (http://www.picturesof.net/_images_300/A_Retro_Cartoon_Male_Lumberjack_Royalty_Free_Clipart_Picture_100402-002255-310053.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: jaynoon on Mon, 31 January 2011, 22:50:24: Quote from: imsto;287763
If it's available I would try to make a group buy here. lol

You will be my hero. :)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: bakageta on Mon, 31 January 2011, 23:55:09: Quote from: jaynoon;288091
You will be my hero. :)

Mine too... I really want one of these for my portable board, I'm hoping they're not in stupidly short supply forever.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 01 February 2011, 22:40:13: (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/wisemasterwang/Funny/want.jpg)
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: manfaux on Tue, 01 February 2011, 23:19:35: Quote from: Mazora;287977
Sorry to break the fun here but SHE is actually a HE :

http://www.tokyohive.com/2010/09/kayo-sato-reveals-her-true-self/
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.shreet.com/userfiles/2010/09/36/09/images/kayo-satoh-kayo-police-019.jpg&imgrefurl=http://geekhack.org/showthread.php%3Fp%3D283608&usg=__j4szx0djC6hbXqQoBBFhzr7cIAY=&h=300&w=450&sz=27&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=-aaaDgf226C-_M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=173&ei=_09HTcTNHNOtgQfV-9XNAQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkbc%2Bpoker%2Bkeyboard%2Bgirl%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D912%26bih%3D772%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C94&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=597&vpy=150&dur=4949&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=209&ty=93&oei=_09HTcTNHNOtgQfV-9XNAQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&biw=912&bih=772

Nice kb though. ^^

lol wtf? that could've fooled me.
Title: KBC 40% taking pre orders now.
Post by: WhiteRice on Fri, 04 February 2011, 07:22:38: Grass on the field...

Wait no, that doesn't apply at all.