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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: urlwolf on Thu, 13 January 2011, 07:43:47

Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: urlwolf on Thu, 13 January 2011, 07:43:47: Do you have recommendations for Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice... I love the size. A pity the sensor is only 400 dpi...
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:36:35: The Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-B75-00113-Intellimouse-Explorer-3-0/dp/B000GOUE7O) has similarly soft buttons, but it's also 400 dpi. Why not just keep using the 1.0? It's not as though that's a bad mouse.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: urlwolf on Thu, 13 January 2011, 08:55:54: Well, because it's quite a workout to move your arm so much :)
Even 1000dpi would be enough, but 400? This is not for gaming, just office work.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Muhi on Thu, 13 January 2011, 09:37:11: I'd stick with the v1 tbh. If I could find were I put mine, it would be my current work mouse. I do remember it going John Madden on me when I tracked over something white though.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: aynjell on Thu, 13 January 2011, 17:31:47: Quote from: Muhi;277875
I'd stick with the v1 tbh. If I could find were I put mine, it would be my current work mouse. I do remember it going John Madden on me when I tracked over something white though.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, but when I get to "going john madden" I immediately conjure up "boom, tough actin' tinactin" in my mind. I lol'd
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Muhi on Thu, 13 January 2011, 18:07:53: Quote from: aynjell;278177
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, but when I get to "going john madden" I immediately conjure up "boom, tough actin' tinactin" in my mind. I lol'd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5_n1S3ilQk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5_n1S3ilQk)
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Conditioned on Fri, 14 January 2011, 10:39:09: The best gaming mice are:

* WMO 1.1a
* Ime 3.0
* deathadder 1800 dpi.

All the rest have one ore more flaws like neg/pos accel, ****ty tracking on some mousepads or prediction.

400 dpi might well be enough for you depending on what game and what res that game has.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: urlwolf on Sun, 16 January 2011, 07:13:56: Quote from: ripster;278278
Stick nickels on it. Report back (each nickel is 5.00g).

Not very exciting. The EU version of the ripometer fails to press the button even with this many 10c on the logitech rx1500. That's how much it takes to press it, and that's an average button.

The intellimouse takes quite a lot, but at least I could make it trigger.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14863&d=1295180561)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14864&d=1295180593)
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Bullveyr on Sun, 16 January 2011, 08:52:06: I count 16 10-Cent Coins on the Intelli, so 65,6g.

Why do you have so many 10c at home? :D
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: George7 on Tue, 18 January 2011, 14:17:53: The mouse with the softest buttons I've used was one of those standard Microsoft Mice. Nice feeling mouse actually. I bought an Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 and that's got pretty soft buttons, but nowhere near as much as the Standard MS mouse.

EDIT: One of these:

(http://snpi.dell.com/snp/images/products/mlrg/A0765771.jpg)

I use a G5 at home. It's allright.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Arc'xer on Tue, 18 January 2011, 14:44:13: Quote from: George7;280567
The mouse with the softest buttons I've used was one of those standard Microsoft Mice. Nice feeling mouse actually. I bought an Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 and that's got pretty soft buttons, but nowhere near as much as the Standard MS mouse.

WMO 1.1 has fairly cheap and mostly considered crappy switches(if I'm not mistaken they are really just button switches similar to a console controller). They really aren't up to the level of the omron as in the IO 1.1/3.0.

The title of this thread is kinda misleading with "softness" unless you mean lightness. Think of the microswithes in a mouse as scissor switches. Despite the fact that some scissor switches reach the 75-90g range their fairly short travel makes them feel a lot lighter.

But there comes a point were having the switches too light can be a bit negative sorta like Tim Tyler and his keyboard/mouse mods (http://mykeyboard.co.uk/).

OP I think what you want is a quality microswitch and not entirely a "soft or light switch". Remember the majority of mice on the market use pretty much the same 3 to 4 omron switches and I believe zippy as well. I'm surprised you mention your Intelli v1 as having so soft.

You sure it's soft and not worn out? Unless the microswitch in the v1 was made with better material and better construction.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: urlwolf on Tue, 18 January 2011, 15:00:21: So what are the top-quality microswitches and which mouse has them?
Somehow gaming mouse should have top-quality microswitches, but I'm unimpressed by the ones I've tried.

The intelli v1 may well be worn out. It feels clearly better. I also like a cherry mouse, the gentix:
(http://track.neckermann.de/data/detail.php?p=151523613&n=189771906)
but this switch likes to stay pressed. Some switches are slow to do a doble-click, for example. This is the case with the gentix. Anyone knows why this is?
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Arc'xer on Tue, 18 January 2011, 15:12:08: Quote from: urlwolf;280601
So what are the top-quality microswitches and which mouse has them?
Somehow gaming mouse should have top-quality microswitches, but I'm unimpressed by the ones I've tried.

Like I said the majority of mice(even gaming); of all, which do use microswitches are based within 3-4 of omrons switches. One of the most common being the D2FC-F-7N version at least for the primary.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Ghostpixel on Tue, 22 March 2011, 19:23:47: I would really like to mod my logitech mx revolution and make it more silent, and it does have those Omron D2FC-F-7N switches. Is it possible to mod them in any way like those older switches they talk about in this thread: http://www.grynx.com/projects/silent-mouse/2/

It seems totally sealed :/
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: bill gates iii on Tue, 22 March 2011, 23:40:50: I invented a 5600dpi Microsoft Intellimouse, but it was never produced.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Izza on Wed, 23 March 2011, 01:37:05: Quote from: bill gates iii;316515
I invented a 5600dpi Microsoft Intellimouse, but it was never produced.

Micr... nevermind. :twitch:
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: noodles256 on Wed, 23 March 2011, 12:41:04: the xai imo has pretty soft buttons. I don't like the mouse though
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: symphonic1985 on Sun, 03 April 2011, 16:12:27: I tend to flip flop back and forth between preferring my Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 and the Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1a. The WMO has the nice shape and weight, the IME has nicer buttons and grip.

Yesterday I decided to replace the WMO left click with an Omron D2F-01FL from my Kensington trackball. I was expecting to notice a big improvement, but it is worse than stock. So damned firm. I think the problem is indeed leverage. To make the change worthwhile I need to come up with a better solution for triggering the microswitch.

What do you think about having the hinge for the triggering lever coming from the front rather than the middle of the mouse? I'd generate much more torque that way. (I click behind the scroll wheel)
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: kill will on Sun, 03 April 2011, 17:12:27: i just picked up a logitech marathon mouse and it has replaced my 10 year addiction to intellimouse.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 04 April 2011, 17:45:57: Quote from: ripster;324041
You could play with the levered versions of the Omrons.

That's an idea. I might try it out if I get a chance. Today I measured the operating force of some switches without the levers on them (using a gram scale).

The WMO's activate at 50 g which is well below the standard 75 g of the Zippy and off brand switches that I also had out and about. I'll test the Omrons next.

This means that you can't replace the switches of the WMO without some additional modding, unless you like a mouse button that activates at well over 100 g of weight.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: symphonic1985 on Thu, 07 April 2011, 04:39:49: Quick update - I tested more microswitches that I have salvaged from various mice. I found some 50 g Zippy's and put one as the left click of my WMO, leaving mouse2 stock for comparison. It feels much nicer, activating at 60-70 grams where I click it. It is much less audible and feels like a shorter/less bouncy throw.

I noticed some Omron D2FC-F-7N switches in my Logitech WMO which I might try next. They activate at 50 grams. I'm a little confused about why the force is different from D2...F new ones that I have. I may open my IME and test those D2FC-F-7N switches for comparison.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Scarzy on Thu, 07 April 2011, 05:25:45: Interesting modding going on here, symphonic1985. Very impressed. I've going back to switching mice again recently, I still love my 3.0 but I get damned bored of it! Currently on the Deathadder and will probably change it today back to my 1.1 (which I also find very nice to use, but less comfortable for me than my 3.0).

The WMO has very light buttons, but they are also very low quality, and I can't live without my mouse4 and mouse5!
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Skylit on Thu, 07 April 2011, 12:11:53: Quote from: ripster;326137
I seriously doubt the post title. Are you sure it's just not age?

The insides of a mouse are pretty generic.

Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical
Show Image
(http://www.dansdata.com/images/moremouses/newexpguts440.jpg)

That's an Intellimouse Explorer 3.0
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Skylit on Thu, 07 April 2011, 14:12:31: Quote from: ripster;326202
I blame DansData. (http://www.dansdata.com/moremouses.htm)

WHOAH - these things are oooooolllllllldddddddd......
Show Image
(http://www.dansdata.com/images/moremouses/mouseplague440.jpg)

Anyway, the switches are all 70g that I've ever found.

Are these PS/2?

Not sure about the logitech, but the Intellimouse 3.0, Intellimouse 2.0 (very rare), and WMO were all USB w/ PS/2 adapters.

(http://i1-gadgets.softpedia-static.com/images/newsrsz/How-to-Connect-an-USB-Keyboard-or-Mouse-to-a-PS-2-Interface-And-Viceversa-2.jpg)

First generation WMO's used an Agilent/Avago sensor, while later 2002-2003 models started using the STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04.
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: Scarzy on Thu, 07 April 2011, 15:15:12: Really want to get my hands on a Intellimouse 2.0, oh you guys.. :(
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: symphonic1985 on Fri, 08 April 2011, 04:14:22: @ Scarzy

The IME 3.0 is definitely my favourite stock mouse of those I've tried (WMO, IME 3.0, IMO 1.1, MX518, Logi WMO, A4tech X7). I played with a friend's Deathadder but the slippery sides really annoyed me. It feels REALLY heavy even though it isn't.

I've put some thought into what makes the IME feel so stable in my hand (claw grip). I've realized that a key for me is the mouse ass should only touch my palm at the base of the thumb and it should stay there. This stops you from losing the ass of the mouse. The grippy surface of the 3.0 is perfect for this. Also the right of the mouse should have a relax spot for the ring/pinky fingers that slopes down slightly, but so the pinky can still touch the mousepad for stability/awareness.

I could weight mod my 3.0 but I can't bring myself to do it without a backup, so instead I'm trying to get these features onto my WMO with sugru. I've already stripped the cable to the 4 USB wires only so that isn't an issue anymore.

The next mod that I want to do is better mouse button hinges. They deserve to feel better and that shouldn't be hard to achieve. I want to have the ability to tune the force do my liking. The index finger should be doing a lot of aiming but if the switch is too light it can't direct the mouse without firing a button.

As for the switches, the last Omron D2...s that I test are 75 g as you would expect, so I don't know what is going on with the switches in the Logi WMO that are definitely 50 g. Strange.

Btw, I have a semi-objective way to judge my aiming ability with different mice/mods. I do this reflex test a bunch of times, with the page Ctrl+ to maximum size.

http://www.reflextest.net/reaction/letter.htm

So far my high score with the 3.0 is 1 more than with the WMO so it's a close battle. :D
Title: Mice with soft buttons? An old intellimouse v1 beats all newer mice...
Post by: sordna on Mon, 11 April 2011, 18:19:32: I got a Logitech M500 yesterday, button softness seems comparable to my old intellimouse. I got it to replace an MX518 which has noticeably harder buttons, and a very hard to turn scrollwheel. Seems like gaming mice have harder scrollwheels on purpose, but it sucks for scrolling documents or web pages. So I decided gaming mice are not for me (except maybe the G500 which has a soft scrollwheel too).
So far a like the M500 a lot, especially the hyper gliding scrollwheel is a joy, and at 1000 dpi seems just right.
A pet peeve I have about mice is the uber-hard middle click they all have (I use it for paste). The M500 is no different, but the scrollwheel also does side clicks which are very soft, so I made tilting the scrollwheel to the left produce the soft middle click I was looking for.