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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: symphonic1985 on Thu, 13 January 2011, 13:37:42

Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Thu, 13 January 2011, 13:37:42: Hey guys,

Recently I started learning Colemak (40 wpm or so). It's nice and all, but some awkward stuff remains. The real problem with keyboards is that our thumbs are underutilized. Years of videogames have convinced me that they can handle a hell of a lot more than one spacebar.

Amidst the recent craze of layout development (Colemak, Carpalx, Capewell, ARENSITO, Workman, etc.), little attention has been given to assigning letters to our most useful finger. Only the Maltron layout has attempted to optimize for use of the left as well as right thumb (by assigning 'E' there), but that was in the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Maltron_3D_US.svg

According to the analysis tool at http://www.codesharp.co.uk/dvorak/ it's the best layout right now.

It makes sense that the thumbs have been ignored. ISO/ANSI keyboards aren't designed to have separate keys for the thumbs. But that is only superficial. Move your hands along the homerow to the right. If you go far enough you should (depending on the keyboard) have space under one thumb and ALT under the other.

There are other options on a Cherry MX board. You can make the spacebar smaller and extend the ALT keys towards the center of the keyboard (using the spacebar stabilizers or others if necessary). If that sounds bad, just add buttons below the spacebar using e.g. microswitches with levers. If you don't want to mod at all, then go ahead and buy a Japanese keyboard, a Kinesis, Maltron... anything with 2 keys for the thumbs. 'E" occurs extremely frequently (10-13%), even compared to the spacebar (15-19%). Getting it off of the main block of keys should offer huge advantages for digraphs and rolls.

I want the best layout possible with dual thumb use. But I need help from the community! So this is me reaching out to see if anyone wants to work together to see what we can come up with - whether it's modifications to Maltron, Colemak, or something completely different.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 13 January 2011, 13:50:02: This:
(http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/images/key-m.jpg)

I use it with the Colemak layout. With Muhenkan as Win (the big key on the left side to the left of the left shift).

Henkan (the other one), is a remap key I use for random stuff.

Hiragana/Katakana (below Henkan) I use for AltGr (Colemak requirement :D).
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Viett on Thu, 13 January 2011, 13:50:59: msiegel (http://geekhack.org/member.php?u=1625) has had some pretty interesting ideas (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=261890&postcount=37) for a layout with thumb keys:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13999&stc=1&d=1292219500)

I think thumb modifiers make the most sense (as opposed to, say, the letter 'e'). The reason there are two shifts and a Caps Lock is because you can't touch type and hold a shift with a pinky at the same time. If shift were a thumb key, you would only need one shift and no Caps Lock. Same goes for the control and alt keys, although you don't really ever need to touch type while holding those two keys, since they are mostly used for shortcuts.

With this said, I think it makes sense to do something like a control/caps swap and remap one of the two alts to shift (which can be pressed with a thumb). Then you can remap the two shifts to whatever you want.

I think this is the best option because no specialized keyboard is required, and people can use a regular ANSI board.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: eMps on Thu, 13 January 2011, 14:39:53: I've always used my left thumb a lot, as a side effect of having played various games; I use it for XCVB as well as space. I recently acquired a HHKB Pro JP, and I want to use the extra keys next to the space bar for something like backspace, punctuation or modifiers so that my right thumb has something to do.

Having a keyboard like the one in HaaTa's picture would probably be the best way to properly utilize the awesomeness that is our thumbs, though.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Thu, 13 January 2011, 16:12:18: Checking in and happy to see some interest already! That utron board is really cool, but sadly out of my price range.

I agree whole heartedly with the comments about the shift modifiers. I'd move those to the thumbs also. A Radley's program at codesharp allows for 2 keys to be assigned per thumb. If I put in the Maltron layout plus shift on the thumbs it improves the score quite a bit. I haven't had time to check this for Colemak yet. Of course I'd get CTRL etc down there as well.

One solution in this regard is to have your thumb keys and then shift in between, reachable by either thumb. This you could achieve with a simple mod to a standard keyboard. I'm kind of surprised that there doesn't seem to exist a wireless/wired wrist rest with built in thumb keys. It would have to be a little bit adjustable, but still...

I contacted Martin Krzywinski of Carpalx fame and he's very interested in this line of thinking, but said that he doesn't have time to mod his program to include thumbs. (Though he said it would be straightforward). I'm wondering about other people's typing analysis programs.

I suppose that this brainstorming has 2 branches:
1/ How to get buttons on our thumbs. So hardware mods or hacks. I already have several microswitches and arcade buttons and will begin experimenting this weekend.

2/ What to do with the thumbs. I still believe that the most improvement comes with 'e' plus 'shift' and other stuff. But that sacrifices compatibility. My point of view is that I will always be able to type QWERTY when I need to on other PCs, and my own computers will be modded to my needs.

In the next days I'll take some photos of my ideas and annotate them with my tablet PC. Otherwise you'll just be seeing walls of text from me.

Btw, any Maltron or Kinesis users here? I would love to hear your thoughts about the thumb use on those boards. Any users of the Maltron layout?
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: taswyn on Thu, 13 January 2011, 16:51:34: IMO, to really be both ergonomic and also to achieve the greatest possible utility/number of available thumb keys, thumb keys need to be mounted so the key surface is vertical or nearly vertical, with the switch closing horizontally. Open and close your hand. Which way do your fingers bend. Which way does your thumb bend? Exactly. Part of why we're stuck with the spacebar is that there aren't very many positions I think where it's comfortable to be hitting keys in a way that is sideways for your thumb.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Tony on Thu, 13 January 2011, 22:56:37: Compatibility is an important factor.
If I let my thumbs type, for example, E and T (two most frequent keys) plus usual space, how could I cope when I need to use old keyboards?
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Fri, 14 January 2011, 02:20:12: Quote from: taswyn;278154
Part of why we're stuck with the spacebar is that there aren't very many positions I think where it's comfortable to be hitting keys in a way that is sideways for your thumb.

This is true. If you're going to have keys mounted vertically like on standard keyboards, then you need keys like space to be large, since we hit it with an unnatural angle. For modifiers only I don't think this is such a problem, but for really typing with my thumbs I would want to close the switches horizontally. Cherry MX switches can tolerate being hit at an angle so you could achieve some of this the the keycap alone. It's not ideal though. If you add keys yourself it's straightforward to angle them.

RE: compatibility.
I spend 99% of the time typing at my own keyboards. If I were to get stranded at some other one, I would switch to QWERTY. It would be the same story if I just continue with a scheme like Colemak. If I can have a noticeable improvement for most of my typing time it would be worth having a difference setup.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Tony on Fri, 14 January 2011, 03:13:25: Fine if you are using your keyboard only, then perhaps a ergonomic split keyboard with two spaces is good for you. One space you could map to E or T, then I think you will type a bit faster. Maybe you can use thumbs to type Enter too.

(http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/06/ergo_05.jpg)

For Colemak, I use a small portable file colemak.exe (http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe) to run to switch to Colemak layout at Qwerty computers.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 14 January 2011, 07:24:58: Earlier Tron keyboards had the four modifiers on each side set in a semicircle on that side. The keys were wedge-shaped, like slices in a pie. The topmost key was pointing up, but the bottommost was at a 45° angle.
I have seen pictures on the web of other Asian keyboards with thumbkeys in a semicircle, but I have not been able to find any more description of these pics than "Hey, look at this weird keyboard" ...
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 14 January 2011, 15:50:56: imo the best use of a thumb is best implemented in the nostromo keypads
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2780/smallbs.jpg) (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/smallbs.jpg/)

the control switch is easy to use, and you still have a spacebar type button on the bottom as well.

It's really simple to use once you get in the mindset that, "hey this is just like video games". Modern FPS on xbox/ps3 use the d-pad for selecting weapons and stuff i.e. left for grenade, right for shotgun, etc.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 14 January 2011, 18:55:35: I like this thread of thought. A keyboard that is split into two separate devices, where each has alphanumeric keys in one plane and the thumb keys on a subkeyboard slanted away from the first.

How about making the thumb-keyboards contoured instead of just laying out the keys in a fan pattern. For the left hand, the rightmost thumb key would press down and the leftmost thumb key would press right, like the orange key and the space key on the Nostromo but with one or two other thumb-keys in-between spaced evenly.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Sat, 15 January 2011, 04:32:31: Quote from: Findecanor;278774
How about making the thumb-keyboards contoured instead of just laying out the keys in a fan pattern.

I think that this is the way to go. I have a Saitek Command Unit, which is similar to the Nostromo except that it has an analog stick where the right thumb is. I used it for FPSs for a long time but the mushy keys got to me in the end. Now I've made my own device from arcade buttons, which is very comfortable. I haven't finished the thumb section but I currently have buttons like petals on a flower, with the outer ones slanted in. Buttons were easier for me to implement than a dpad.

When you play a console shooter you use each thumb for 1 stick + 4 buttons (not included start, select) which really is a lot. And they can do it fast. What's more, I read in Lillian Malt's paper that the area of the brain dedicated to our thumbs is 9 times larger than that for a finger.

I'm about to try and get carpalx to work, before I play with hardware later on. Wish me luck!
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Lanx on Sat, 15 January 2011, 22:34:28: opposable thumbs is what seperates us anyway!
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Sun, 16 January 2011, 15:44:22: Hey all,

Had boyfriend duty this weekend so I didn't achieve as much as I wanted. I managed to make Carpalx work though, and will see what I can come up with. I'm curious about a Dvorak type layout where each finger of the left hand gets a a difference vowel.

Here's an image of the G80-1800, taken by sixty I believe. Notice how if your hands along the home row with your index finger on L, then there are buttons right where your thumb sits. This is immediately exploitable. It would be better to have a double width one though, so I have an engineering challenge. How would you make 1 double sized stabilized key out of 2 normal sized ones? You can take the spring out of one of them... but then I'm unsure about the best way to stabilize things.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7dbFJ-O8HS3UsE9k9fbLCYSwoORCZEUsOHgWtz2oZMddrdbRf)
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 16 January 2011, 16:49:37: Quote from: symphonic1985;279534
How would you make 1 double sized stabilized key out of 2 normal sized ones? You can take the spring out of one of them... but then I'm unsure about the best way to stabilize things.
Do you mean that you want wider keys next to the space bar? That is easy. Use double-width keys relegendable keys. These came with my programmable Genovation keypad, but I think that they can be bought separately from various places.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14868&stc=1&d=1295218107)
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 03:39:29: Quote from: Findecanor;279553
Use double-width keys relegendable keys. These came with my programmable Genovation keypad, but I think that they can be bought separately from various places.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14868&stc=1&d=1295218107)

Your photo is just what i'd like to achieve. How stable does the key feel when you hit it at the edge? My concern has been that without a metal bar to distribute the load, the key won't depress evenly. I did an experiment with a long 'shift' key on top of two MY switches. It didn't seem to want to depress evenly.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 17 January 2011, 03:45:40: I have tried only with springs in the switches. It is not as stable as one that is stabilized with a metal bar but it is better than a backspace without stabilizers. You also need to put a tiny piece of plastic inside the switch in-between the gold contacts to keep the switch open.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 08:59:31: This is promising. I made a makeshift version out of two normal sized keys by sticking them together. Worked pretty well. I can always spring mod from some scraps I have so that both switches take an even load. If I then need stabilization, I can fashion something from a paperclip, I suppose.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Wed, 19 January 2011, 03:37:51: I can't decide whether I'll buy some of these keycap double covers or make them myself. I've been obsessing over the letter layout the last few days more than hardware.

I had a thought which is related to the 'alternative layout' side of this. The modern optimized layouts tend to give each pinky a vowel and not much else (c.f. Colemak). This is a good idea, you use the vowels with everything but not TOO often. The only problem that this gives for me is that rolls from pinky to top row are a little uncomfortable. e.g. o-u on colemak.

So why not make the pinky button oversized? I'm thinking of giving it either 2 vertical slots (home row, top row) and weakening the springs for the 2 switches, or, when I make my own keyboard, using a nice chunky Sanwa button. :D

What do you guys think of the idea?
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: 21326 on Thu, 20 January 2011, 21:11:58: Quote from: HaaTa;278048
This:
Show Image
(http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/images/key-m.jpg)

I use it with the Colemak layout. With Muhenkan as Win (the big key on the left side to the left of the left shift).

Henkan (the other one), is a remap key I use for random stuff.

Hiragana/Katakana (below Henkan) I use for AltGr (Colemak requirement :D).

How much did you pay for it? Where did you get one?
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 20 January 2011, 23:02:16: Eh, I was gonna do something cool for post 1000. But this works :P.

Quote from: 21326;282044
How much did you pay for it?

Too much.

Quote from: 21326;282044
Where did you get one?

Otaku holyland.

I posted the receipt around here somewhere.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Fri, 21 January 2011, 12:10:19: I have another idea for people who have standard ISO boards and are interested in getting a thumb key for free. Move your whole right hand and rest your pinky on the enter key. Right thumb should now hover over ALT. Make ENTER either P (on QWERTY) or O on Colemak. You lose the (terrible) ring and pinky spots for punctuation but this would be worth it for me.
Title: Let's use our thumbs - seeking layout help!
Post by: symphonic1985 on Sun, 06 February 2011, 11:52:54: Just an update on where I've been going with this lately. Wall of text coming - short version - Rotate keyboard 180 degrees.

I started thinking about putting letters on the numpad of a compact like the g8-1800 and then using my thumb on the arrow keys. The left hand could use the main block with the thumb hovering over right control etc. This is nice because you get a bit of matrix key layout going on. I was considering using this format with a keyboard layout similar to Michael ****ens' MTGAP FULL 0.1 (see his blog). This places all vowels in a cluster and only uses the center column on that hand for some punctuation.

This is a promising avenue, but I've turned now towards an inverted ARENSITO inspired scheme where the thumbs rest on the F keys. i.e. rotate the keyboard and keycaps 180 degrees. I've attached a dodgy webcam picture to show the idea. This is pretty cool. The F keys are more or less useless for me right now, so using them for modifiers on the thumb (along with 'space' etc.) is a nice trade. At the same time I have full use of the alphanumeric block, just upside down.

So far I have inverted QWERTY working with space on F5 and shift next to it. I'm using Portable Keyboard Layout for this. I still haven't figured out how best to implement modifiers via PKL so if someone can help me out there I would appreciate it.

My inverted QWERTY will be standard with it comes to the letter placements, but I'll put some thought into where 'enter' and so on should go. The arrow keys will go to the pgup/down etc. block. F keys can go to the numpad or simply be accessed on another layer on the number row.

The distance of the F keys from the number row is actually feels pretty natural for hitting them with the thumbs. And it's trivial to extend the keycaps in a little bit. So far I'm experimenting on my G80-3000, but will want to extend the idea to the G8-1800 instead. The F keys are spaced closer together on that board. Actually, looking at e.g Filcos, it seems that their F keys are closer to the main block. It should work even better with those.

Some more pros for this style of layout:
1/ Right hand VERY close to the mouse/trackball.
2/ Moving the modifiers to the thumbs leaves more keys available for dedicated shortcuts - copy, paste etc.
3/ If you leave the keyboard in the case you get a nice negative incline for free. Supplement with a little bit of wrist rest if required.

If my inverted QWERTY is nice to use I'll then build a new truly ergo layout in this format.