geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: nocturn4l3030 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 04:39:45
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/what topic says
been obsessed on whether to get cherry blues or buckling springs and right now im leaning on buckling springs..
seems like the only way to get one of these bad boys is through ebay so i want to make sure i'm not overpaying or anything
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I've never paid more then $40 for a used one...but that was before their value skyrocketed. (and why I'll prpobably never buy another one)
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wow........ $40 is a damn steal.. i'd prob buy another one for my momma if it was that cheap =[
okay i guess my new question should be:
how much should i be paying for the latest overinflated prices of the ibm model m space savers? =(
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1 gazillion money
honestly: pay what you feel it's worth. I for one think 40$ is not a steal, it's a good value. If I really loved them a lot, I might be inclined to pay double that but no more.
But there is no real market value or anything like this. If you go to some old office building that has some Spacesavers lying around and no idea what they are worth, they might be happy to get them off their hands free of charge. Then you shouldn't pay anything :)
Can't really say you "should" pay X monies. If you want one right now, you "should" pay what they usually go for on eBay. If you want to do the sensible thing like me, then wait for some old-school company to go out of business/do an inventory overhaul and hand you some of those for free/10$. Of course this "sensible thing" has a high probability of resulting in me never owning a Model M Spacesaver :)
Gosh, I am really so helpful, I should charge by the hour.
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Maybe the blue logo single keycap one thats on the bay :-)
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I think the going rate is anywhere from $70ish (condition: missing some parts and keys) to $200+ (condition: NIB).
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If you live in the US you may as well get the Unicomp version if you're gonna pay that much. At least then you have something brand new.
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The last used one in good condition that I saw on eBay sold for $73
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120665512679 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120665512679)
As mentioned, there's one currently up there for $124, by a seller that usually has a starting bid at the extreme high end of where keyboards sell for. He is though a known seller and so it's probably not likely there will be anything wrong with it. If you end up buying something cheap, but it doesn't work, it may very well end up being no bargain at all.
The normal range for good used boards that I've seen is around $95-$130. For boards which are damaged or missing keys, etc, considerably less. For brand new boards, $200-$300.
I bought several Space Savings last year and paid on average about $60 for good boards, even got a brand new one for about $40. But you'll rarely if ever find those deals on eBay and I consider finding mine at those prices to be extremely lucky.
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But you'll rarely if ever find those deals on eBay and I consider finding mine at those prices to be extremely lucky.
especially if it finds it's way onto "great finds". (which i really like to browse, but usually the ebay items there will end up at a pretty high price. I'm not really sure if GH makes up a lot of the ebay demand for those things, but it sure seems like it)
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thanks everyone for your replies
no offense senor but yea that wasn't really helpful -.-; everything in general is only worth what you'll pay for =) i think i should've made the topic "how much did you pay for your ibm model m space saver?"
ripster, i guess i'm lookin for both old and new prices, i'm pretty sure i can only afford the used price, but i would like a general price for both
ah yea i saw that one on ebay and had to start this topic first... definitely going to wait to see if i can find something cheaper.... i get the impression that there's a lot of new geekhackers the last few months (including me) so i'm wondering if i'll ever get a good price =( but the auction u linked sam gives me hope
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especially if it finds it's way onto "great finds". (which i really like to browse, but usually the ebay items there will end up at a pretty high price. I'm not really sure if GH makes up a lot of the ebay demand for those things, but it sure seems like it)
lol yea.. seems like every darn spacesaver on ebay will always be linked in the great finds which = more darn money! -.- i'll take note of that if i'm selling though =)
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Go with a unicomp. I have spent way too much money on Model M space saving keyboards and ended up selling them. I am down to one now.
Aside from the IBM logo, the unicomps are more than good enough.
If it is a tenkeyless IBM that you MUST have, than be prepared to pay. NIB are way expensive, used and abused can be had for less. Tenkeyless is nice though, but you are going to pay for it.
Maybe in a few years when all of the excitement, artificial or real, dies down you can get one on the 'cheap' but I don't really see that happening.
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If you live in the US you may as well get the Unicomp version if you're gonna pay that much. At least then you have something brand new.
Go with a unicomp. I have spent way too much money on Model M space saving keyboards and ended up selling them. I am down to one now.
Aside from the IBM logo, the unicomps are more than good enough.
If it is a tenkeyless IBM that you MUST have, than be prepared to pay. NIB are way expensive, used and abused can be had for less. Tenkeyless is nice though, but you are going to pay for it.
Maybe in a few years when all of the excitement, artificial or real, dies down you can get one on the 'cheap' but I don't really see that happening.
i really need the non-numberpad version because my keyboard tray is too darn small =(
jus did a google search and the unicomp space saver has the numberpad unless i'm tottally missing something..
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Unicomp doesn't make a numpadless keyboard. Trust me, they have been asked multiple times but it ain't going to happen. If it is numpadless/tenkeyless you want than it is the Model M mini that you are looking for.
I would shoot for a NIB, you get that new keyboard smell : ) plus it is NEW.
I have bought multiple used ones with varying degrees of satisfaction. One was filthy, but I was able to clean it up ok. One was fairly worn out and jangly. Another one was well used( the key feel was very nice) and in very good condition. I ended up selling them. Like a moth to the flame I had to have a NIB. I paid $204 for one and thought the price was insane, nowadays that would be a steal.
The NIBs are the way to go but you will pay for them.
Have to ask, if your keyboard tray is too small, can you get a bigger tray?
It would be cheaper that way.
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Unicomp doesn't make a numpadless keyboard. Trust me, they have been asked multiple times but it ain't going to happen. If it is numpadless/tenkeyless you want than it is the Model M mini that you are looking for.
I would shoot for a NIB, you get that new keyboard smell : ) plus it is NEW.
I have bought multiple used ones with varying degrees of satisfaction. One was filthy, but I was able to clean it up ok. One was fairly worn out and jangly. Another one was well used( the key feel was very nice) and in very good condition. I ended up selling them. Like a moth to the flame I had to have a NIB. I paid $204 for one and thought the price was insane, nowadays that would be a steal.
The NIBs are the way to go but you will pay for them.
Have to ask, if your keyboard tray is too small, can you get a bigger tray?
It would be cheaper that way.
ah yea i would love a NIB trust me.. but i dont think i can do $200 for one.. i already spent more than that for my friggin realforce .. jus dont think i can dish out that kind of money again -.-;
guess i'll jus be searchin for a good price used one on ebay.. unfortunately i doubt i'll find a good one anytime soon though =[
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At least you have the Realforce. From what I understand it doesn't get much better than that. Having a IBM mini would be sweet to but yeah, its hard to justify over 500 dollars between two keyboards : )
lol, but here on Geekhack we do : )
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That wasn't helpful at ALL
true ;)
and shows a clear misunderstanding of elementary Economics.
on the contrary...
Stuff doesn't just "have a value". The current market price gives the Spacesaver a current market value (depending on the condition). But that is not "the value" of the Spacesaver. In other areas of the world, the value would be totally different. In other areas of the market (old office building where no one knows what a Spacesaver Model M is and hence has no idea and/or interest in finding out what the market currently pays for it) the value would be totally different.
Point I was trying to make is that the OP has to decide for himself what value an IBM Model M Spacesaver has TO HIM. And THAT is what he "should" pay for it.
To me an IBM Model M Spacesaver would have a value of roughly 40€ which would be a little more than iMav paid. I came up with that price by considering stuff like missing NKRO, Windows keys, etc. while on the pro side adding stuff like oldschoolness, build to lastness, etc.
Value to me might increase considerably once I actually tried an IBM model M which I can get for 30-40€ on eBay here depending on the condition.
The current market value of Spacesavers in the US with over 130$ going to over 200$ depending on condition is way off in correlation to "my value". Thus if I was interested in buying it, I'd defo say "I shouldn't pay that".
I think a good way to find out the "personal value" of a product for thineself is to ask yourself "what would I pay for it?". Don't fool around and say "a buck, haha!". That leads nowhere. I usually go by "what alternatives do I have?" for example a Filco Tenkeyless. Then I check what it costs at various places. Maybe look at it over a certain period of time and can see that around 120€ is probably the lowest I could pay for a Filco Tenkeyless.
Now the question is, is a NIB Model M Spacesaver worth to me as much as a Filco Tenkeyless? Depends, to me no, to the OP, maybe yes. Depends on how much u value the buckling springs and how much u value the "tenkeyless" aspect. Let's say you highly value the BS but only moderately value "tenkeyless". Then you should check how much a normal NIB Model M goes for. Let's say 50$. As you only "moderately" value the "tenkeyless", you would be getting a personal value of the Spacesaver Model M between 50$ and 120$.
If you highly value both BS and tenkeyless, then there is no question, you just gotta pay what the market demands. One factor in this would be time, if you have it, you can wait. Speculating that either prices drop in general or that you somewhere, sometime get that "deal of a lifetime".
I guess you can fill in the blankes in regard to other "valuation processes", like considering other alternative boards, valuing "tenkeyless" highly but BS only "moderately", etc.
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Clearly you guys need to stop buying these.
Done that already.
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Here are the ranges on ebay:
Used: 70$-160$
New: 200$-300$
The OP wanted to know how much to pay, it wasn't about how you got some great deal locally on an ibm space saver. Sure, anyone could luck out and find one for free or 20$, but those are blind luck.
Keep an eye on surplus-electronics-sales.com, as they sometimes post new ones for 200$ and they're fantastic.
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can't believe u pulled the supply and demand curve out .... ;)
supply and demand are not all that define the value of a product/service.
I thought recent history had moved people to question some of the teachings of dudes like Friedman and Keynes. I think it's quite obvious that they missed out on some stuff, too in all their wisdom.
@MissileMike
yeah I have been nitpicking the "what SHOULD I pay" part. I guess I shouldn't have trolled and just told him or let someone else with more update info than me tell him what the going exchange rate Spacesaver <---> monies is.
Still I thought this was as good a topic as any to hijack and talk about the illusion of "value".
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In America the actual value of an item is consumer-driven. In socialist countries, you buy or else "get out of my store!"
Except for Italy. I scored my sister a sweet $200 purse for $20 from some nice Nigerians in Rome.
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guys, economics is not rocket science...
that is, current economic theories are not as *reliable* as rocket science ;)
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ok... but i'd say a rare item without a consistent supply will have a far more *variable* price than a commodity, where small frequent corrections are possible ;)
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Economies are more complicated than rockets.
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and rockets aren't powered by human beings ;)
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i'm sure you're right... i think i'll hold on to mine :)
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guys, economics is not rocket science...
that is, current economic theories are not as *reliable* as rocket science ;)
Unless you're Taiwanese. I'd put my faith in their economics over their rockets (missiles). :)
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In America the actual value of an item is consumer-driven. In socialist countries, you buy or else "get out of my store!"
I guess that's why you have all the rubber-domes with crappy printed keycaps
and the Chinese have all the Cherry Reds.....
Or maybe it's just because you guys don't really produce anything no more,
hence you don't have enough REAL jobs and as a result, can only afford cheap Chinese plastic-crap.. Or Glocks, cheap Austrian plastic-crap .
If you ask me, 200 dollars for a brand-new Spacesaver is a steal .
Buy it while you still can ..
The up-storming Chinese middle-class will soon be buying these up to l
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Or maybe it's just because you guys don't really produce anything no more,
hence you don't have enough REAL jobs and as a result, can only afford cheap Chinese plastic-crap.. Or Glocks, cheap Austrian plastic-crap
Huh? while we don't produce much, we have plenty of REAL jobs and will continue to in the future. Plus, we can afford Topres! Also what's up with the Glock reference? I don't own guns but I've heard they are very durable.
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Also what's up with the Glock reference? I don't own guns but I've heard they are very durable.
the arizona shooter was using a glock
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Glock-Sales-Increase-After-Arizona-Shooting-6545
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And why are you bringing that up?
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i really need the non-numberpad version because my keyboard tray is too darn small =(
jus did a google search and the unicomp space saver has the numberpad unless i'm tottally missing something..
The keyboard you're talking is the Space Saving Keyboard, the IBM Spacesaver is something quite different...
(http://martin.iturbide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IBM-M4-1-blacl.jpg)
Now the question is, is a NIB Model M Spacesaver worth to me as much as a Filco Tenkeyless? Depends, to me no
I agree. The SSK clearly should be worth more.
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And why are you bringing that up?
You asked "Also what's up with the Glock reference?".
Glocks have been getting a lot of press since the arizona shooting.
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Got a little OT question about the Space saving IBMs. There was the normal IBM Space Saving keyboard and the industrial version. Is there anything different between these two models besides the color? Are they both buckling springs?
Damn that industrial Model M looks sooooooo awesome!
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Knowing that IBM Model M Minis will increase in price as supply dwindles is not rocket science. Despite many Geekhackers opinions.
Only if a) no one comes by some huge storage house full of NIB SpaceSavers which is unlikely but absolutely not impossible
or b) some company starts manufacturing them or a (better) equivalent again.
Of course the brand name IBM might play a factor in this. I'm personally not big on brand names.
And to give a more tangible example of why supply and demand are not all that plays into "value":
Let's take "demand" as just given. Let's just say we only care about the "demand" this very second and ignore the fact that it can look entirely different (either through chance/natural causes or by being forced/influenced to look entirely different) in the next second.
Supply is much easier to understand as an "unfixable" factor in the SpaceSaver scenario. But: Supply is only limited right now and not to everyone. If I am some dude somewhere in Russia who inherited among many other things a huge warehouse from his dad which is stocked with like 1000 Spacesavers, which were innitially ordered for some government offices during the cold war but were finally not to be used and stored away because of the evil americans and **** and my dad kept them locked away hoping he could move them someday but couldn't. And now I inherited that ****, couldn't care less about some old dusty keyboards and have no time to look into what I actually have there.
In this scenario my personal value of those things is not only 0, it's even negative because they bother me and I have a warehouse I could use to grow weed or store rice that I sell to Africans during the next famine or whatever.
Now let's say someday I come across the fact that those are actually little gold nuggets in my warehouse that can sell for over 200$ on American eBay.
If I am a smart business person, I do what that other dude on eBay did and sell them one by one, maybe on a weekly basis but with gaps in between. This way I artificially keep supply low, even though it really isn't, in order to keep demand and subsequently the price high.
If I am not that smart a business person or don't care that much about the monies and just have no time, I might be inclined to just flood the market with them and sell them in bunches, 10 a day or what. At this point supply has drastically changed, demand may still be the same or fall but because supply is plenty, prices will drop either way.
Now what I was trying to tell the OP is: I would rather wait for the above scenario to happen or go out and try to find my own supply (which can also only be 1 spacesaver) which no one else knows about/has access to, than pay the currently common price of 200$ or more.
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Only if a) no one comes by some huge storage house full of NIB SpaceSavers which is unlikely but absolutely not impossible
(http://webwit.nl/input/ibm_misc/m4-1_1.jpg)
?
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what the hell is an epeen?
is that that the thing like a-holes that anyone has one of?
also: I was high throughout uni, too *internet high five*
also: o_O
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Speaking of economics... are you planning on selling any of your Apple stock soon, ripster?
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I should write a script that automatically posts pictures of the M4-1 whenever someone says "IBM Spacesaver". I'll be able to poke the moon with my e-**** then...
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I assume he wants to keep it industrial-gray, so please don't do that.
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Never stopped me!
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You can swim in the Red Sea, just don't drink from it.
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making money off of steve jobs is essentially playing devils advocate.
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but i guess ethics and morals doesnt have any real relationship to fear and greed of the supply and demand x graph.
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making money off of steve jobs is essentially playing devils advocate.
No. THIS is playing devil's advocate:
(http://i.imgur.com/MpVgn.jpg)
but i guess ethics and morals doesnt have any real relationship to fear and greed of the supply and demand x graph.
Not a big capitalism fan, are we? Blame Model M prices on shill bidding then...that seems to be popular.
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i am a huge fan of capitalism. but i also believe having pride in whatever goods or services you attain/provide. to me apple is a company who will gain like 25-33% of the market share over the next few decades and they tote total security, when in reality if programmers in foreign countries actually wanted to infiltrate their os, it seems very possible.
i love the iphone, the ipad is also a great product. but i despise their pc and laptop campaign. so i wouldn't support it even if it meant 500% gains.
these havent always been my views. being a failed day trader has a lot to do with it :)
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With viruses it's all about market share. It's not more difficult to write a virus for OS X necc. than it is for Windows or any other OS. It's just that hackers don't waste their time since Windows has the majority of market share.
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it wont be long until there is an iphone script kiddie cult movement a la AO HELL back in the day. then people will be punting your phone lol
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@kalrykh - that's a good point. I guess it's more work, but I've heard there are ways to programmatically gain root access.
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it wont be long until there is an iphone script kiddie cult movement a la AO HELL back in the day. then people will be punting your phone lol
oreo punter ftw!
i was so proud of that "proggie" i made..especially when the chatrooms were scrolling advertisements of my program (indicating that alot of people were using it)
hah i miss my aol days
and damn those pictures of your spacesavings are sexy
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That's not exactly accurate. Permissions are a big deal. In windows, at least before the annoying UAC popups, each account would have the equivalent of root access to everything. If that account got a virus, there was nothing stopping it from running amok. With linux and other unix derivatives, you never use root unless you need to make system wide changes, and unless you're a moron and give your everyday account superuser access, you can download all the crap you want and it will only affect that one account. Not only would your virus have to find a way onto the computer, but also find a flaw in the OS to exploit to gain access to everything else. OSX undermines this a bit by setting up the main user as an administrator, but also takes the UAC approach. However, it at least asks you for a password before making any changes. As far as market share...script kiddies and virus coders target home users, not hackers. Hackers target servers, and windows sure as hell doesn't have the majority of the market share there.
Even then, UAC is deliberately broken to allow older applications to work. Plenty of hack-arounds for it exist.