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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Sam on Mon, 17 January 2011, 18:11:44

Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Sam on Mon, 17 January 2011, 18:11:44: I've seen polls here before to vote for your favorite switch, but I'm interested in finding out information that a simple poll cannot reveal. For example, if someone votes for a particular switch, but another switch is a very close second, the poll won't reveal that. The poll also doesn't indicate which switches a person has tried. So switches which aren't so common won't do well in a poll even though they might be very nice switches. The polls I've seen so far also don't distinguish between gaming and non-gaming use, which could potentially yield quite different results.

So my idea is to grade the various switches that you've tried into at least two different categories, as appropriate - one category for when used for gaming, another category for when used for typing, coding, etc. If you use your keyboard for some purpose outside those categories with different results, feel free to list it.

One important point I'd like to make is that I'd like to see what is your grading without any regard to negative aspects of the sound with respect to others. Everyone uses their keyboards in different environments, so grading a key lower just because it's noisy and you use it where low noise is a requirement doesn't help anyone in distinguishing what are the best feeling keys. For purposes of this grading, assume the keys would be used where you were isolated without anyone around to hear it.

Absolutely no consideration should be given to any keyboard layouts that use a particular key, nor how useful or not a keyboard is with a particular key. We're only talking about the switches here, not the keyboards, but if the mounting or other construction aspects of a particular keyboard directly affect the switch feel, then feel free to distinguish between them. For example you may want to grade switches differently based on plate vs. PCB mounting.

Please list all the common key switches that you've used enough to form an opinion on.

Here's my grading:

TYPING
IBM Beam Springs: A+ (97%)
IBM Model F Buckling Springs: A (90%-93%)
IBM Model M Buckling Springs: B (80%-85%)
Cherry MX Blues PCB-Mounted: C- (70%)
Scissor Switches: D (60%-65%)
Topres: D- (60%)
Cherry MX Browns PCB-Mounted: F (50%)
Rubber Domes: F (10%-50%)

GAMING
I do not do any gaming so cannot rate the switches in this category.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: theferenc on Mon, 17 January 2011, 20:44:06: Typing:
Model M Buckling Springs: 95%
Topre: 93%
bigfoot black ALPS: 85%
Cherry MX Blue: 70%
Cherry MX Clear: 70%
Cherry MX Brown (PCB): 30% (absolute worst mechanical switch)

Scissor switches: will never use again
Keytronic rubber dome: 60%
Standard rubber dome: 35%

And yes, I prefer standard rubber domes to cherry browns. I find browns mushy, over light, and an extremem displeasure to type on. Welcome to the weirdness that is my world.

Gaming:
Not a gamer.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Sam on Mon, 17 January 2011, 21:09:32: Quote from: theferenc;280141

Cherry MX Brown (PCB): 30% (absolute worst mechanical switch)

Wow, and here I thought I was alone. After seeing how well Cherry Browns did in the last poll, when I recently got my first Cherry Brown board I was wondering if there was something wrong with me. I totally agree, for me the absolute worst mechanical switch around. I did though try to imagine if I was into gaming if they'd be any better and wasn't sure but thought they might possibly be.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: iMav on Mon, 17 January 2011, 21:14:24: You need to try Cherry browns on a choc mini. Didn't have mine long enough to investigate why they felt so great...but it was very NICE. (I like browns anyways...but this was a step up)
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 17 January 2011, 21:15:37: you guys that don't like browns trying out used/refurbs?
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: clack on Mon, 17 January 2011, 21:24:04: No its just cool to hate the most popular switch
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Sam on Mon, 17 January 2011, 21:29:22: I bought a used board (Kinesis Advantage), but all the keys, even ones that wouldn't normally get much use felt the same. Regardless, if they wear in quickly to that state, I wouldn't ever consider buying a new board with them. I want a board that will last for years and not have any significant loss in quality of feel during that time. I will probably end up swapping in Cherry Blues on that board in order to be able to more accurately analyze the board and it's ergonomic concepts. It's simply too difficult for me now to get over that "yuck" feeling each time I press a mushy Cherry Brown key.

BTW, don't mean to be demeaning anyone else's favorite switch. We all have differences in opinion, and sharing our opinions I think is valuable for giving us insights into various keys and keyboards.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 21:39:05: Cherry MX Browns - B (85%)
SMK Monterey - B (82%)
Cherry MX Blues - B (80%)
Cherry MX Blacks - B (80%)
IBM Buckling Springs - B (80%)
Cherry MX Reds - C (77%)
White clicky Alps - C (70%)
Cherry MX Clears - D (65%)
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: HaaTa on Mon, 17 January 2011, 22:36:09: Interesting idea.
This will take me a while, so I'll prepare something at work :biggrin: tomorrow.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 18 January 2011, 00:20:31: typing

browns-95
bs-90
clear-85
blues-85
ghetto reds-75
blacks-70
ml-65
simp-alps-5

gaming
browns 95
bs-50
clear 85
blues 75
ghetto reds 75
blacks 70
ml-65
simp-alps 5
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: sixty on Tue, 18 January 2011, 01:27:40: MX Black > 1995: 65%
MX Black < 1995: 90%
MX Clear (stock): 65%
MX Clear (modded): 95%
MX Brown PCB (ricercar spos): 60%
MX Brown Plate (filco): 30%
MX Blue Plate: 75%
MX Blue PCB: 80%
MX Red: 75%
ALPS Blue/Old White: 80%
Fukka White: 75%
Fukka Black: 20%
ALPS Black: 20%
Buckling Spring: 70%
Hall Effect Magnetic Linears: 95%
Topre 55g: 50%
Topre Variable: 40%
ML: 20%
MY: DIVISION BY ZERO

holy crap, I'm weird.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: urlwolf on Tue, 18 January 2011, 04:30:41: Quote from: sixty;280229
MX Black > 1995: 65%
MX Black < 1995: 90%

Is this due to usage or the spring is different?
Is this documented anywhere?
---
PCB reds 100%
PCB blacks 60%
brown, plate mounted (filco) 70%, going down...
Bulking Spring 60%
XM fake alps 10%
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Sam on Tue, 18 January 2011, 05:52:42: Phaedrus2129, Lanx and Sixty, are those grades for use when typing, gaming, both?

Quote from: sixty;280229
Hall Effect Magnetic Linears: 95%

I'm curious what keyboard used those switches? I'm interested to try out some Hall Effect switches but haven't found any cheap board yet.

Quote from: ripster;280215
And Beam Springs (a switch on a keyboard that can't be used on modern PCs) gets an A+? That's like giving a PhD an A+ even though they never complete their dissertation.

Well, actually I've been tinkering around with a Beam Spring board for the past week. I picked up an IBM 3727 Operator's Console and a 3727 base unit to power the keyboard/supply a signal and jury-rigged up a USB connection via an interface box I designed for a totally different purpose. Wrote some quick and dirty firmware and got a result that lets me type and generate text on my modern PC. No function keys yet, but basic typing is there. So you can no longer state categorically that the Beam Springs are not usable with modern PCs.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 18 January 2011, 07:20:40: I've used browns on a filco tenkeyless, an old, but unused kinesis, and a refurbed cherry board. All felt awful. The filco felt a wee bit better, I assume because of the plate, but I only used it for a few minutes to try it out (is my office mate's), hence why it wasn't explicitly graded.

You may see it as me hating on the popular switch because it's cool. But I don't really care. I despised the switch prior to seeing that poll, and I don't dislike it any more now that I have.

Don't forget, there is the distinct possibility that we are different people, with different likes and desires. I like buckling springs. I like them a lot. I do not like cherry switches. You do. Thankfully, we both have choices in the matter.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 18 January 2011, 07:25:20: Quote from: iMav;280156
You need to try Cherry browns on a choc mini. Didn't have mine long enough to investigate why they felt so great...but it was very NICE. (I like browns anyways...but this was a step up)

This is a great thing to hear. I hope mine will be here soon.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 18 January 2011, 10:48:05: From 100% (perfect) over 50% (quite usable) to 0% (keep the 'board and hand me the slate):

MX blue: 90%
BS (M): 85%
MX clear: 70%
ML: 65%
Futaba: 60%
MX black: 50%
Good rubber domes (e.g. BTC 5131C, FSC): ~50%
MY (1993, lubricated): 35% (works reliably, but still not the best feel)
Acer "Alpsalikes": 30% (could type a little smoother)
ALPS white complicated (FK3002): 25% (how are you supposed to get a good typing rhythm going if you have to pound the keys like that?)
ALPS black complicated (AT102DW): 20% (ugh... hard bottom out galore)
MY (stock): 20% (off-center friction and dead octopus feel)
Flexible silicone rubber: 0%
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: sixty on Tue, 18 January 2011, 10:55:41: Quote from: urlwolf;280266
Is this due to usage or the spring is different?
Is this documented anywhere?
---
PCB reds 100%
PCB blacks 60%
brown, plate mounted (filco) 70%, going down...
Bulking Spring 60%
XM fake alps 10%

I am not sure. There was a period where Cherry changed a few things about the black switch. The old ones have a bigger logo, and the spring inside is a different color. Possisbly a different material. I find the old ones much smoother compared to the new ones. Koreans have it documented and I believe Sandy also has a page on the changes on his website. Koreans claim the same change took place for MX Blue, but I do not notice a difference trhere personally.

Quote
Phaedrus2129, Lanx and Sixty, are those grades for use when typing, gaming, both?

Mine were for typing, I guess.

Quote
I'm curious what keyboard used those switches? I'm interested to try out some Hall Effect switches but haven't found any cheap board yet.

Check here for a few pics, topic also links to some first impressions - http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13694 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13694)

It is a very unique typing experience, but if one is not a fan of linears, probably not everyone will find it enjoyable at all.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: intealls on Tue, 18 January 2011, 11:06:17: Cherry MX Blue PCB: 90%
Cherry MX Blue Plate: 85% (too tinny)
SMK Montereys: 85% (a bit too stiff, hard to not bottom out)
Buckling spring (M2): 82% (+2% because of added noise)
Buckling spring (M): 80%
Cherry MX Black: 60% (too stiff)
Cherry ML: 56% (stiff)
Cream dampened comp ALPS: 55% (too stiff)
Cherry MX Brown: 50% (too light)
Acer ALPS: 30% (mushy/stiff)
White comp ALPS: 25% (WAY too stiff)
Black comp ALPS: 20%

I probably have wimpy fingers. :(
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 18 January 2011, 11:44:06: intealls, if you dislike the dampened alps so much, why do you have 5 AEKIIs? I'm just curious, as that seems sort of silly to me, given your stated preferences here.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 18 January 2011, 12:52:26: For now, coding preference:

Buckling Spring   Capacitive   A+   98
Buckling Spring   Membrane   A+   97
Topre   55g   A   90
Topre   45g   A   89
Beam Spring      B   85
Futuba      B   85
NEC   Blue Sliders   B   84
SMK Monterey      B   83
NMB Hi-Tek   Tactile   B   82
Topre   30g   B   81
MX Blue   Plate   B   80
MX Red   PCB   B   80
MX Brown   PCB   C+   74
MX Brown   Plate   C+   72
MX Black   PCB   C+   71
MX Black   Plate   C+   70
ALPS   Fukka   C+   69
ALPS   Black (Linear)   C   68
MY   Modded   C   65
ALPS   XM   C   65
MY      C-   60
ALPS   Linear (Old)   C-   60
Rubber Dome   IBM/Keytronic Type   F   45
IBM   Low profile domes "cat's tongue"   F   42
Scissor   IBM Type   F   40
Scissor   Common Type   F   30
Rubber Dome   Common Type   F   15
Foam 'n Foil      F   10
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 18 January 2011, 12:55:15: is that order because of typing accuracy?
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 18 January 2011, 12:59:09: Sorta, also typing feel, and based on how I feel after long coding sessions.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: sixty on Tue, 18 January 2011, 13:03:52: Quote from: HaaTa
MY C- 60

(http://www.neogaf.com/~kurai/umad.jpg)
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 18 January 2011, 13:06:02: Quote from: HaaTa;280522
Sorta, also typing feel, and based on how I feel after long coding sessions.

excellent, ima use this for confirmation bias ;D
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 18 January 2011, 13:24:14: Quote from: sixty;280527
Show Image
(http://www.neogaf.com/~kurai/umad.jpg)

Lol

One of my metrics of evaluation is consistency of switch feel. This is why I can't stand any switch with a low life expectancy (Rubber domes), as the keyboard eventually becomes "weighted". MY on the other hand, does not have this issue.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 18 January 2011, 15:06:07: HaaTa, I think he's referring to the fact that a 60% is not a C-, but rather a D- or an F, depending on what school you're in.

Could be wrong though. Awesome use of that picture, though.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 18 January 2011, 15:08:24: Oh, I'm using a different scaling of letter grades :P.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 18 January 2011, 15:10:22: Clearly. My students would LOVE your system, I think. Especially if it's a linear scaling of all the grades
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: intealls on Wed, 19 January 2011, 01:14:24: Quote from: theferenc;280435
intealls, if you dislike the dampened alps so much, why do you have 5 AEKIIs? I'm just curious, as that seems sort of silly to me, given your stated preferences here.

I initially had one, then got 4 for free. I should probably add to the list that I really like cream dampened ALPS without tactile leaves. Quite light and awesomely smooth. The AEK is very solidly built, and the keys are excellent to Rit-Dye. So I guess I like the board more than the switches.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: godly_music on Wed, 19 January 2011, 04:58:32: Quote from: sixty;280229
MX Black > 1995: 65%
MX Black < 1995: 90%

I did notice a subtle difference between those. The old one feels a tick lighter and resistance doesn't increase as much when bottoming out. Weird though, J in the serial number indicates this board was built in 1997.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 19 January 2011, 17:59:04: I'd never heard of Acer "ALPS-alikes" before. I was setting up a new PC for someone and his old keyboard was a MESH (a UK brand) PS/2 with clicky ALPS switches, that elusive British 105-key ALPS keyboard. It seemed an amazing find, except when we popped off a keycap ... black clicky ALPS? With "Acer" written on them? What the..?

It turned out to be a rebadged Acer.

Cursory inspection suggests that the sound and feel to me are indistinguishable from my 102-key complicated blue ALPS, but further testing would be necessary. Also, I do wonder what the disadvantage is of having a membrane switch under the key, since after all, the renowned buckling spring keyboard only uses the springs for its sound and feel, not for the switch contacts.

I couldn't give either 100%, as I prefer stiffer switches, hence holding out for a Fukka to see whether that gives me my desired resistance. I'm too heavy handed, although even Cherry browns are wonderful when I'm temporarily tuned into them. After a week off for Christmas, using only my Cherry blue keyboard at home, I was really amazed to find that after I went back to work, my Cherry brown keyboard in the office felt so much better than the Cherry blue at home.

My feelings are, with suitably random figures, all for typing experience:

Cherry MX blue (FILCO 2010 plate): 80% — pretty nice, but the plastic rattle of the clicker is a real letdown compared to the deep resonance of BS and the solid metallic sound of ALPS

Cherry MX brown (FILCO 2010 plate): 90% — the scraping sound and feel that some keys have, never wears off, and it requires an exceptionally light touch, but it's a deliciously smooth and tactile switch if you can adjust to it, which I can if I'm typing a lot of text at once

Unicomp BS (Spacesaver 2010): 90% — the sound can remind me of a child's toy (not sure why, but it sucks) and the tactile point is too low and too erratic to be worth anything, but it sounds and feels really good; a little stiff (leas to mssed lettrs) and tiring, but great fun, and would probably be my first choice if I could make a ton of noise at work

Simplified ALPS Type II (XM): 50% — Ugh. Once I have my Fukka board and I've been able to compare them fully, I'll have a spare Zero for someone to strip down. The XM switches can die on a fire (or be refitted, if there's anything good left in them). To be fair, XM would be fine if you have strong hands, e.g. someone more accustomed to manual labour would probably not be fazed by them, and they do have a really good solid click.

Complicated blue ALPS: 80% — a bit light (may be wear, it's an 80s keyboard that's seen a lot of use), a little noisy (but my Fukka should prove worse!), and a touch jarring, but pretty pleasant. I doubt that a Fukka would have the smoothness of BS, but the ALPS sound is much sharper and cleaner than the muffled clatter of BS. For a light feel, I prefer browns, and for a heavy feel, definitely BS, but in terms of sound, ALPS is best.

BBC Micro linear (Cherry? 1982–1985): 50% — very quality feel, decent sound, indestructible switches on a sturdy plate mounted keyboard, but linear is just not for me. Note that the BBC Master keyboard (1985–?) had the same look, sound and feel, but the switches wore out easily.
Title: How Do You Grade The Switches?
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 20 January 2011, 01:43:36: ehh, here's how i feel today :)

Capacitive BS: 90
Membrane BS: 80
Orange Complicated ALPS: 70
Cherry MX Brown / PlateMount: 70
Great RubberDome: 65
Cream Complicated ALPS with Dampers: 65
Modified Fukka White (with Dampers): 60
Typical RubberDome: 40
POS RubberDome: 20