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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: digitalleftovers on Thu, 03 February 2011, 17:06:44

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: digitalleftovers on Thu, 03 February 2011, 17:06:44

This was a disturbing find today:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/senator-us-domain-name-seizures-alarmingly-unprecedented.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

Immigration authorities are seizing domain names of websites that they deem to be related to illegal activity. Due process, however, seems to be unavailable.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 03 February 2011, 17:24:43

So, umm free country?

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 03 February 2011, 17:34:00

More free than anyone who has to pay VAT =)

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 03 February 2011, 18:07:15

AKA sales tax... how many states don't have that?

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 03 February 2011, 18:17:56

Mine's 6%. What's yours? :D

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 03 February 2011, 18:24:19

Americans don't pay state sales tax on items purchased out of state. is this true of UK VAT?

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 03 February 2011, 18:25:40

So now it's not about whether you pay, it's how much? Hah. You're only 94% free.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 03 February 2011, 18:26:24

Quote from: Soarer;289529

So now it's not about whether you pay, it's how much? Hah. You're only 94% free.

Well at least that's higher than anyone in the EU.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 03 February 2011, 19:17:49

So if some third world country doesn't have sales tax at all it's more free?

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 03 February 2011, 19:29:41

Quote from: kishy;289537

How much sales tax you don't pay is about as accurate a benchmark of freedom and quality of life as the Windows Experience Index is an objective and accurate measure of computer performance...

True, however, neither is what the OP said.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: quadibloc on Thu, 03 February 2011, 19:55:40

If a site outside the U.S. thumbs its nose at U.S. copyright laws, it can expect that if it got a domain name from a U.S. domain registrar, it might have problems.

However, the fact that it's the Department of Homeland Security, and not the FBI, that's doing this strikes me as the potential danger to liberty. Oh, we happen to have these emergency powers lying around for use against terrorists - gee, let's use them to help protect our friends in Hollywood too.

Yes, that kind of mentality could lead to danger to freedom. Emergency powers required by something as extraordinary as terrorism... are outside what the Constitution allows for dealing with ordinary, routine crime. The Constitution not being a suicide pact is not supposed to mean that the Constitution is a dead letter, remember?

Guantanamo had to be in a place outside the U.S., under military jurisdiction, because Bush was afraid the courts would turn terrorists loose on technicalities.

At one time, Americans were free - but the courts exercised common sense and discretion in applying the Constitution to things like terrorism. Absent common sense and discretion, the choice becomes one between preserving freedom and protecting people's safety.

But it doesn't have to be that way; that doesn't have to be an either-or choice.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 03 February 2011, 20:58:12

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2016/iprcseized201102ny.gif)

This is pretty bad, but at least it isn't China/Australia bad.

800x600 GIF... classy.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: instantkamera on Thu, 03 February 2011, 21:26:13

Quote from: AndrewZorn;289565

Show Image

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2016/iprcseized201102ny.gif)

This is pretty bad, but at least it isn't China/Australia bad.

800x600 GIF... classy.

SEIZED ... Cheesed.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: D-EJ915 on Thu, 03 February 2011, 21:34:59

It's like one of those search landing pages lol.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 03 February 2011, 21:35:17

what i'd like to know is, why does the IPRCC have by far the most awesome logo

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: instantkamera on Thu, 03 February 2011, 21:57:51

Really? I was wondering why the homeland security one seems to be an actual badge ... it's shaped like one and it says "special agent" on it. Does that mean I can print one out and glue it to a plastic badge from the dollar store and go around seizing domains and throwing ICE at people??

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 03 February 2011, 22:01:03

First they took our jarbs, now they're taking our domains! Blargh!

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 03 February 2011, 22:48:25

http://www.homestarrunner.com/cantsayjob.html

/oblig :)

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: instantkamera on Fri, 04 February 2011, 07:16:02

Coach Z is funny, but I think he was aiming more specifically at:

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: firestorm on Fri, 04 February 2011, 08:42:46

Quote from: ricercar;289528

Americans don't pay state sales tax on items purchased out of state. is this true of UK VAT?

FWIW, for residents of MI, you're supposed to pay sales tax on items purchased via the internet (when sales tax is otherwise not charged) when you file your tax returns.  It's not strictly enforced AFAIK, but that's what we're supposed to do.

As for the topic at hand... That's ridiculous.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Fri, 04 February 2011, 08:48:20

In New York you are legally required to declare the dollar value of any items purchased out of state and be taxed appropriately for the dollar value of the items against the state sales tax.

This is totally unconstitutional under interstate commerce. It's also totally unenforceable. Combine the two and 96% of New Yorkers either bought no items out of state or bought items out of state and didn't declare them.

They did pass a law saying that anyone making over 10,000k with affiliates in NY had to pay NY Sales Tax. Amazon didn't roll over yet and still charges NY sales tax. Newegg did it for two months, then openly told NYS to screw themselves. Overstock.com dropped all NY affilitaes, and a lot of other businesses just ignore it.

On the topic at hand:
These are domains under the jurisdiction of US law; as such, the US government is legally entitled to file for a court ordered seizure. If a judge determines the request to be valid, the domain can be seized.

If the owners of said domains wanted to file against the seizure they can under US courts. Their servers are not taken and they are also free to just move to a domain under non-US jurisdiction (.cd, .fm, etc.)

People keep debating Rojadirecta.org because it was found by Spanish courts to be operating legally under US law. That may be true, but the domain name is something under the jurisdiction of US law if it is US issued - the US government has the right to enforce laws pertaining to domain names under US jurisdiction. That is why the domain was seized but the servers/site admins were not taken/prosecuted.  So the fact that Rojadirecta was operating legally in Spain is actually completely irrelevant to the domain seizure.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Ekaros on Fri, 04 February 2011, 09:33:51

I belive that all domains apart maybe apart from .com should be moved out from US jurisdition. Under UN or some other organisation not bounded to any goverment.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: bugfix on Fri, 04 February 2011, 09:41:45

Quote from: Ekaros;289719

I belive that all domains apart maybe apart from .com should be moved out from US jurisdition. Under UN or some other organisation not bounded to any goverment.

Don't you confuse domains and IP adresses? Aren't domains already managed in the country they belong to? Such as the Denic for .de adresses?

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Ekaros on Fri, 04 February 2011, 09:49:53

Quote from: bugfix;289722

Don't you confuse domains and IP adresses? Aren't domains already managed in the country they belong to? Such as the Denic for .de adresses?

Okay, I sjould have stated it more refined. Goverments can control domains such as .us .de .uk .gov and .mil

All other generic top-level domains should not be under any single goverment.

And for IPs, yes them too. I dunno if there would be free IPs left for few more days or months if some universities hadn't hoarded them...

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: bugfix on Fri, 04 February 2011, 09:57:10

Quote from: Ekaros;289727

Goverments can control domains such as .us .de .uk .gov and .mil

That the US government can control .gov and .mil makes sense, they are government domains after all ;)

And atleast for .de it's not true that the German government could control them. They are administrated by the Denic, a private entity. It might be true that a judge could order a domain to be seized (related to copyright infringements for example), but that's not a bad thing.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: digitalleftovers on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:02:42

When custom top level domains are rolled out later this year, (See http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/03/canon-domain/) they may end up under some regional or international oversight, as ICANN did with .asia (http://www.dotasia.org/).

I am skeptical about that though, because .asia has been around for a while and I have yet to see one.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Ekaros on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:06:20

Got .eu domain, but haven't seen much of them either... Acctualy I haven't got it even working yet and I don't have server anyway, but I have domain-name anyway ;D

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: bugfix on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:20:38

I trust America blindly anyway so I don't mind.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:27:02

Obama has recently become a fan of Girls Generation. He's currently pondering the fact that "SooYoung" is only one letter away from "TooYoung".

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Obama_Chesh_2.jpg/398px-Obama_Chesh_2.jpg)

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: mike on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:29:43

Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;289702

These are domains under the jurisdiction of US law; as such, the US government is legally entitled to file for a court ordered seizure. If a judge determines the request to be valid, the domain can be seized.

The domain's registrant (who wants the domain), registrar (who delegates the domain to the registrant), or registry (um ... I guess authorises multiple registrars to make changes to the relevant "top-level domain") ? Actually that question is a bit academic because it's all ruled over by ICANN which is under contract to the US government and subject to US and Californian law.

Hypothetically a dumb US court could order say the .uk registry (Nominet - sort of) to turn over the ownership of 'foo.co.uk' to some US agency, and then order ICANN to drop .uk out of the root zone when Nominet turns round and says "Who are you?". It's unlikely to get that far, but if it did it's the sort of thing that would lead to multiple root zones.

One root zone
to gather all the domains
And in the darkness BIND them.

:)

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:34:48

America has most money. We plan to buy Internet, kick you out. Do it for lulz.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: gun_sl1nger on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:42:19

Quote from: keyboardlover;289841

America has most money. We buy Internet, kick you out. Do it for lulz.

China own Americas money, call in debt, America not pay, US dollar devalued. China own Internet by default. Just for LULZ.

www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_162-4864398-503983.html

www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:47:12

America switches production from China to Malaysia and Singapore. Saves money and pays off debt. China's economy crumbles in weeks. Does it for lulz.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: mike on Fri, 04 February 2011, 13:59:19

Quote from: Ekaros;289727

And for IPs, yes them too. I dunno if there would be free IPs left for few more days or months if some universities hadn't hoarded them...

Chortle (as the "owner" or at least as someone with the power to transfer an "early registration" class B from the University I work for to elsewhere) - first come, first served. Actually the biggest blocks of sparsely used IPv4 addresses are I believe companies (/8 blocks). And probably just about every /16 block that has been assigned but is currently unused, belongs to a commercial company rather than a University.

To the extent control can be delegated, IPv4 address assignment has been delegated to regional organisations.

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 04 February 2011, 15:09:21

I hope that there will be changes on the international level because of this.
No country deserves to be in control of the Internet.

Off-topic:

Quote from: keyboardlover;289523

Mine's 6%. What's yours? :D

In Sweden:
Sales tax on most things, including e-books and food eaten in a restaurant: 25%
Sales tax on food bought at the supermarket or take-away from the restaurant: 12%
Sales tax on movie tickets, magazines and books on paper: 6%
There are special taxes on petroleum and alcohol (based on alcohol content) on top of the 25% sales tax.

Importing stuff from the EU incurs no extra tax. Buying stuff from outside the EU incurs the tax rates above. That tax rate is on both the item, the cost of shipping and the customs fee, if any. The customs ignore any checkbox that says "gift". Genuine artworks, like paintings and sculptures are toll free and tax free to import, however. If it is a collectors items that can be considered a "mass-produced artwork", then there is "only" 25% tax. I once had to pay 700 SEK for an item from the US that I had paid 1700 SEK for initially because it had been declared as a "toy".

Whenever I see an huh-merican on an Internet forum complain about taxes or the price of "gas", I just want to punch him in the face and shout  "SHUT THE F*** UP YOU SPOILED IGNORANT BRAT! YOU KNOW NOTHING!"

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: Ekaros on Fri, 04 February 2011, 15:28:41

Quote from: Findecanor;289894

I hope that there will be changes on the international level because of this.
No country deserves to be in control of the Internet.

Off-topic:

In Sweden:
Sales tax on most things, including e-books and food eaten in a restaurant: 25%
Sales tax on food bought at the supermarket or take-away from the restaurant: 12%
Sales tax on movie tickets, magazines and books on paper: 6%
There are special taxes on petroleum and alcohol (based on alcohol content) on top of the 25% sales tax.

Importing stuff from the EU incurs no extra tax. Buying stuff from outside the EU incurs the tax rates above. That tax rate is on both the item, the cost of shipping and the customs fee, if any. The customs ignore any checkbox that says "gift". Genuine artworks, like paintings and sculptures are toll free and tax free to import, however. If it is a collectors items that can be considered a "mass-produced artwork", then there is "only" 25% tax. I once had to pay 700 SEK for an item from the US that I had paid 1700 SEK for initially because it had been declared as a "toy".

Whenever I see an huh-merican on an Internet forum complain about taxes or the price of "gas", I just want to punch him in the face and shout  "SHUT THE F*** UP YOU SPOILED IGNORANT BRAT! YOU KNOW NOTHING!"

Also, EU is a fun thing atleast for Finland, if some bussiness sells for over 100k€ or there about they have to pay VAT to Finland not the location of company and if it's often larger VAT...

Title: US Government Taking Domains
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Fri, 04 February 2011, 15:36:21

Quote from: Findecanor;289894

I hope that there will be changes on the international level because of this.
No country deserves to be in control of the Internet.

Off-topic:

In Sweden:
Sales tax on most things, including e-books and food eaten in a restaurant: 25%
Sales tax on food bought at the supermarket or take-away from the restaurant: 12%
Sales tax on movie tickets, magazines and books on paper: 6%
There are special taxes on petroleum and alcohol (based on alcohol content) on top of the 25% sales tax.

Importing stuff from the EU incurs no extra tax. Buying stuff from outside the EU incurs the tax rates above. That tax rate is on both the item, the cost of shipping and the customs fee, if any. The customs ignore any checkbox that says "gift". Genuine artworks, like paintings and sculptures are toll free and tax free to import, however. If it is a collectors items that can be considered a "mass-produced artwork", then there is "only" 25% tax. I once had to pay 700 SEK for an item from the US that I had paid 1700 SEK for initially because it had been declared as a "toy".

Whenever I see an huh-merican on an Internet forum complain about taxes or the price of "gas", I just want to punch him in the face and shout  "SHUT THE F*** UP YOU SPOILED IGNORANT BRAT! YOU KNOW NOTHING!"

I will also presume that you get a wide variety of services from the government that us Americans do not enjoy (e.g. nationalized healthcare).

Taxes go somewhere.