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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dp88 on Fri, 11 February 2011, 18:01:00

Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: dp88 on Fri, 11 February 2011, 18:01:00
The best keyboard I've ever used personally (never used a mechanical) is the logitech illuminated keyboard that uses logitech's Perfect Stroke keys. In fact, I wouldn't even buy another keyboard, except that I started getting arm pain from stretching my arm out to the right to use my mouse. I bought an enermax aurora tenkeyless keyboard because I heard the keys were similar. They aren't. They are terrible, but my arm is healed since using this keyboard for a couple of months. Now I want a good keyboard without a tenkey.

I use my keyboard for both work and gaming. I'm a computer science student now and I spend a lot of time at my computer. I don't want the keys to be too stiff, because I don't want to strain my fingers. I also want it to be relatively quiet. I program in VIM often, and anyone who uses that program knows that you absolutely need a capslock light. That rules out the topre tenkeyless boards

From researching, it looks like the cherry browns might be a good fit and be somewhat comparable to the logitech keys. Does that sound right? Has anyone used both? I am kind of worried about the key chatter threads that seem to be popping up on these boards with the cherry browns lately. Is that something I should worry about?

Or, if you know of another keyboard that uses the same logitech 'perfect stroke' keys and doesn't have the 10-key or a bunch of media controls that make the keyboard so wide it might as well have a tenkey, then that would be ideal. Any other suggestions are also very welcome.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 11 February 2011, 18:17:17
Quote from: dp88;293665
I program in VIM often, and anyone who uses that program knows that you absolutely need a capslock light.


Please elaborate. I quit using vim years ago when I discovered nvi, but that's another discussion. Riot!
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 11 February 2011, 18:20:51
Oh yeah, I already have a perfect stroke, and it ain't my keyboard
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: steeef on Fri, 11 February 2011, 19:13:40
Capslock light? Huh? I use Vim daily and I rarely need capslock on, anywhere.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 11 February 2011, 19:26:27
Quote from: ripster;293689
3.5 or 4mm?


I won't on the tubes, it wouldn't be appropriate.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 11 February 2011, 20:40:29
What is that ball? Does it give massage?
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: kps on Fri, 11 February 2011, 21:52:28
Quote from: Minskleip;293671
I quit using vim years ago when I discovered nvi, but that's another discussion. Riot!


I used nvi for years (and vi before it), but it just became too much trouble to install on every new machine. And it lacks unicode. And I probably have vimisms in my motor memory now.

And I don't even have a caps lock key.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 11 February 2011, 22:06:46
The worst with vim is that you can't turn off the colours without recompiling the program. That's really stupid.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: eunjea on Fri, 11 February 2011, 22:27:49
Quote from: Minskleip;293813
The worst with vim is that you can't turn off the colours without recompiling the program. That's really stupid.


you can turn off color syntax highlighting, no need re-compiling.

:syntax off
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: jaynoon on Sat, 12 February 2011, 01:12:01
My daily driver board was an Illuminated until I bought an HHKB & a Filco w/ Browns. I think you're on the right track with Cherry Browns.

The main thing you'll notice is the browns have a way longer throw (to be expected versus the scissors on the Logitechs). They're also more tactile. They're both pretty light & smooth.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: pitashen on Sat, 12 February 2011, 02:29:14
Why bother comparing. They are in two different universes.

As long as you don't get bothered by the keyboard noise and lack of Industrial Design, there is no turning back once you step in.

Go brown.

Truth is, if you stick with any of the switch you picked long enough, you'll adapt to it and end up enjoying it. Especially if it is your first mech board.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: pitashen on Sat, 12 February 2011, 02:42:56
But if you need the quietness...brown isn't exactly very quiet (i am typing one now).

 Black if you are willing to learn not to bottom out. Red if you can find one and don't mind the cherry board look and having 10 keys
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: pm_ on Sat, 12 February 2011, 03:21:09
Quote from: pitashen;293863

 Black if you are willing to learn not to bottom out. Red if you can find one and don't mind the cherry board look and having 10 keys


Blacks are one of the stiffest keys, and he specifically wants a 10 keyless...and a capslock light.  Removing the topre from the list, I think he's on the right track with browns being the next best option.  I can't attest to how they feel though.  Don't have one quite yet, but I'm borrowing one next week...
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: pitashen on Sat, 12 February 2011, 03:47:28
Black is supposed to be okay if he doesn't bottom out and doesn't go beyond 2mm. Brown isn't very quiet... although a lot better than blue.  Best if he could find a Red of course.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Minskleip on Sat, 12 February 2011, 05:53:09
Quote from: eunjea;293814
you can turn off color syntax highlighting, no need re-compiling.

:syntax off


That won't turn off the blue tildes, unfortunately.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: kachaffeous on Sat, 12 February 2011, 07:43:38
Quote from: steeef;293700
Capslock light? Huh? I use Vim daily and I rarely need capslock on, anywhere.


Yeah use vi all the time also, never need capslock?  What are you doing with it?
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: woody on Sat, 12 February 2011, 08:19:14
Quote from: ripster;293752
By the way in the Logitech PerfectStroke line the Di Novo Edge has a good rep (except at scissor hatin Geekhack).
Show Image
(http://www.logitech.com/assets/14351/14351.png)

This one is good for everything but typing, it made me switch to MLs and then find GH.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: kps on Sat, 12 February 2011, 09:36:50
Quote from: Minskleip;293899
That won't turn off the blue tildes, unfortunately.


Code: [Select]
:highlight NonText ctermfg=0
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: dp88 on Sat, 12 February 2011, 12:42:07
Quote from: Minskleip;293671
Please elaborate. I quit using vim years ago when I discovered nvi, but that's another discussion. Riot!


I use the caps lock a lot when typing constant variables and any time I have to type 2 or more capital letters in a row. Sometimes I accidentally leave the caps lock on in command mode and it causes lots of problems. With the light, I never made this mistake. I do it a lot with my enermax that doesn't have the light.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: dp88 on Sat, 12 February 2011, 12:43:29
Quote from: ripster;293689
3.2, 3.5 or 4mm? (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Key+Travel+For+Various+Switches)

3.2mm on the logitech I have.

The dinovo edge, supposedly has the same keys as the logitech illuminated board. Unfortunately all those controls on the right side of the board make it almost as wide as a computer with a tenkey, so it really wouldn't help my arm at all.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: dp88 on Sat, 12 February 2011, 12:51:03
What do the black and red keys feel like? the scissor keyboards feel tactile to me. In normal typing if you aren't actively trying to look for the exact actuation point, they seem to actuate at the exact time you go over the bump. Do the blacks actually have less of a tactile feeling than that?


Does anyone have any input on the the key chatter problem that people keep complaining about on the cherry brown? Is this isolate, or is it still popping up? It makes me worry if I have to import a board to the US without a warranty.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 12 February 2011, 13:04:35
The blacks are completely linear. No bump, no click, nada. Super smooth, but that lack of tactility bothers some people.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: dp88 on Sat, 12 February 2011, 13:09:55
I do like some type of tactile bump. I wouldn't be willing to take a chance on something that different unfortunately.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 12 February 2011, 13:19:32
Quote from: dp88;294043
What do the black and red keys feel like? the scissor keyboards feel tactile to me. In normal typing if you aren't actively trying to look for the exact actuation point, they seem to actuate at the exact time you go over the bump. Do the blacks actually have less of a tactile feeling than that?
Indeed. They are strictly linear, increasing in force from 40 to 80 grams over their ~4 mm travel, with actuation at midpoint. Reds range from about 30 to 60 grams instead, and are light enough to be reliably actuated by just about anyone (in fact, not doing so can be a problem).

The switch type closest to a scissor switch board would be clears.
Quote from: dp88;294043
Does anyone have any input on the the key chatter problem that people keep complaining about on the cherry brown? Is this isolate, or is it still popping up? It makes me worry if I have to import a board to the US without a warranty.
This can basically happen on any Cherry switch type, as there is no inherent hysteresis like there would be with BS. Still, it doesn't seem to be that extremely common either.
Title: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: audioave10 on Sat, 12 February 2011, 18:59:21
I also have that Logitech Illuminated keyboard. Its a bit delicate for my heavy hands during gaming. I went from there to an IBM Model M.
Title: Re: How do Cherry browns compare to the logitech perfect stroke keys?
Post by: Treknology on Fri, 03 April 2015, 02:05:49
Quote from: dp88 on Fri, 11 February 2011, 18:01:00
The best keyboard I've ever used personally (never used a mechanical) is the logitech illuminated keyboard that uses logitech's Perfect Stroke keys. In fact, I wouldn't even buy another keyboard, except that I started getting arm pain from stretching my arm out to the right to use my mouse. I bought an enermax aurora tenkeyless keyboard because I heard the keys were similar. They aren't. They are terrible, but my arm is healed since using this keyboard for a couple of months. Now I want a good keyboard without a tenkey.

I use my keyboard for both work and gaming. I'm a computer science student now and I spend a lot of time at my computer. I don't want the keys to be too stiff, because I don't want to strain my fingers. I also want it to be relatively quiet. I program in VIM often, and anyone who uses that program knows that you absolutely need a capslock light. That rules out the topre tenkeyless boards

From researching, it looks like the cherry browns might be a good fit and be somewhat comparable to the logitech keys. Does that sound right? Has anyone used both? I am kind of worried about the key chatter threads that seem to be popping up on these boards with the cherry browns lately. Is that something I should worry about?

Or, if you know of another keyboard that uses the same logitech 'perfect stroke' keys and doesn't have the 10-key or a bunch of media controls that make the keyboard so wide it might as well have a tenkey, then that would be ideal. Any other suggestions are also very welcome.

Firstly, I note that I'm looking at a very old post, and secondly, it's gone way off topic.

I write as a heavy user of keyboards as a typist not as a gamer (but who has observed gamers):

Do not be "afraid" of bottoming-out on a full-stroke keyboard, and do not choose one that is too soft. I have a good selection of older mechanical keyboards, including a 'fleet' of IBM Model-M Extended battleship keyboards. For continuous typing, a heavier keyboard does less injury. The first non-switch keyboard (1980s) that I used had a foam pad with a foil contact so that it was "cushion stopped". Great speed was achievable at a severe cost to users in that the then 'new' disease of RSI became very prevalent. OH&S had to change policy and rely on 'harder' keyboards. Most of the switched keyboards I have used contain the now discontinued ALPS line of switches. These can be found in so many color-codes that I don't know the specs of them all. The best balance between hardness and tactility that I have found is the Yellow Clicky. While these are the greatest balance for me, I stick to the IBM (while it may be a bit slower for me) because it copes better with dirt. Although when a failure occurs, these keyboards are not reparable, I have enough on the shelf that they should last me a lifetime. In the rare event that they don't, an equivalent of the Model-M is now manufactured in the U.K. for approximately US$100. Who needs the "Windows keys"?

Of Cherry MX switches, I recommend the Blue Clicky or the Black Silent. I ended up in this thread because I was searching for more info on the Logitech PerfectStroke (and am still none the wiser). I have yet to find a decent keyboard on a modern laptop, hence I always carry an external keyboard with me. Finding something that is tactile yet quiet for use in a classroom environment is very difficult, and I have had my best luck with some of the $10 cheapy versions because, one doesn't have to type at full speed to take class notes.

I have also explored the world of sculpted keyboards and alternative layouts, e.g., Maltron (q.v.) or, its blatant knock-off, Kinesis. I have one of each. They both have decoder issues, so I'm unable to use them. Both use Cherry MX switches. If, as a gamer, you only rely on the WASD keys, either of these keyboards may suit. However, as I have seen gamers leaping across the keyboard all over the place with only one hand, neither of these would be suitable. For gaming, I would still recommend a tactile (clicky) switch, particularly if you don't rely on hitting-bottom to know that you've pressed the key, and a flatter keyboard is better.

The worst I have encountered to date is the visually stunning but useless offering from Apple. Its sleek aluminium finish and almost-flush keys are very appealing but, to a true typist, there is no feeling or feedback at all. You cannot feel if you are on the home-row, and you can't tell if you're touching or pressing a key.

If you're a true hacker, give a Cherry MX switch based keyboard serious consideration. Opening it up to replace one faulty switch is not particularly difficult. In a world where soggy laptop-style keyboards are becoming standard desktop replacements, Cherry is unable to keep up with demand for quality, so much so that it is currently taking minimum action against a Chinese company that is producing replica switches.

These days, when I service someone else's machine, if I observe an "above average" keyboard, I always advise the customer to retain it when upgrading as the quality of the replacement will disappoint.

Edits: Typos. It's ironic that I claim to be a good typist and have to correct minor errors due to a current nerve disorder.