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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Nibble on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:30:15

Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: Nibble on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:30:15
I have yet to find a Topre keyboard that costs less than $200, why?

I can see many people on this forum likes them, what is so special about their feel?

I realise this is something subjective and every answer will be different, but I would still like to know!
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: db_Iodine on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:36:25
There are some cheaper Topre keyboards (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15073). I will find out myself soon enough what the hype is about, when I get the Realforce 88UB.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:37:24
You have to buy one to find out ;)

I guess Topre is very unique for a mechanical switch. It basically feels like a really good rubber dome, if you took away all the negatives associated with using rubber domes. Topre-made keyboards (like Realforce) also tend to be very well-made (case construction, keys, etc. are all second to none). They're also very quiet for a mechanical switch.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:50:14
The big thing here is that they are capacitive switches.  Because of this, you don't need to bottom out the keys, and they don't have some of the disadvantages of other types of switches such as "chattering" (switch debouncing failure).  Topres are light and smooth and all that, but the capacitive switch mechanism is what costs the big $$.  Well, probably not if you look at the raw cost of parts, but Topres are the only manufacturer (that I know of) that still makes capacitive switches.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: Nibble on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:53:51
Quote from: keyboardlover;294796
You have to buy one to find out ;)

I guess Topre is very unique for a mechanical switch. It basically feels like a really good rubber dome, if you took away all the negatives associated with using rubber domes. Topre-made keyboards (like Realforce) also tend to be very well-made (case construction, keys, etc. are all second to none). They're also very quiet for a mechanical switch.

How does the sound compare to cherry browns? Edit: The question sounds dumb, I mean, does it make more sound or less? I am assuming less since browns still sound a lot.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:58:22
Much quieter than cherry browns (PCB-mounted cherry browns being on the quietest end).
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: bugfix on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:09:41
Topres feel great, very subtle and "velvet like". Perhaps even a little underwhelming at first ('tis a rubber dome) but after you give them some time you don't want to type on anything else. Except perhaps for Buckling Springs, the diametrical yet equally awesome opposite to the Topre switch.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:13:40
If you bottom out when you type, I've found that cherry reds actually have a similar feel. I know that force graphs and switch design and all that would have you believe otherwise, but even all that can't tell you how a keyboard will feel when it's in YOUR hands.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: sixty on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:35:28
The way the Topre switch works it that it is so expensive that your brain gets activated in the sense of a placebo effect, causing you to believe that the switch is special and awesome.

trollface.svg
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: bugfix on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:39:07
While sixty is clearly biased against Topre (being a Cherryholic and all) his thesis might be correct.

Still I'd prefer using a Topre that I imagine to be great than a Cherry MX Blue that I know is ****ty.


Disclaimer: Opinions are subjective of course.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:41:09
The truth is that Topre switches are created by a magical group of Topre gnomes in Japan, who solely hold the true secrets of the Topre switch. If you visit the Topre office in Japan you can ask them, but I believe you have to answer 3 impossible questions first.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:42:17
Comparing Topres to Cherrys (and other mechanical switches), I almost feel like Topres are the vacuum tube amplifiers to Cherrys' solid state.  They both do a great job, but the Topres feel like the smooth, warm sound of vacuum tubes where Cherrys (and others) have the sharp, mechanical precision of solid-state.  Of course, there are other aspects of the switches that differ, even Cherrys differ between types, but the vacuum tube/solid state analogy tends to describe the gross differences between the two.

I will say that I think sixty's response might be accurate to a certain extent, but honestly, I don't let price determine the way a switch feels.  I think the HHKB is far closer to a typical rubber dome than the Realforce.  I think people that pan the Topre tried the HHKB.  If you type on a Realforce, they feel quite a bit different.  That said, overall construction can play a big role in the way a keyboard feels.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:52:00
I'm the same way. If I don't like a keyboard, I'll say so and then sell it. You wouldn't have a problem finding a buyer on GeekHack. Used Topres sell like hotcakes here.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: DanGWanG on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:52:35
The Realforce's feel like butter.  From one keystroke to the next, its virtually effortless (especially on the variable weights).  While the browns feel great to type on also, I much prefer it for gaming because I feel a little more resistance.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:56:11
DanGWanG knows what he's talking about. He bought my 103UB which was my former daily driver @ work (now it's an 86UB). I have fond memories of that keyboard =)

BTW when I get that HE00100 I will have one more Topre board than I need, so I will likely sell either that or the 86UB (whichever one I like less).
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: DanGWanG on Mon, 14 February 2011, 10:06:46
Quote from: keyboardlover;294827
DanGWanG knows what he's talking about. He bought my 103UB which was my former daily driver @ work (now it's an 86UB). I have fond memories of that keyboard =)

BTW when I get that HE00100 I will have one more Topre board than I need, so I will likely sell either that or the 86UB (whichever one I like less).


Dibs on the 86UB!
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 10:11:13
We'll have to see =)

The HE00100 would likely be better for gaming, being all 55g and it's rarity earns me Topre "Leet points". Also the keys will be easier to see when my room is dark. I'll have to see how I like the short-throw switches and if I can get used to the Japanese layout/weird Enter key though.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 14 February 2011, 10:47:27
as much as i like my realforce, I'll have to say they're outrageously overpriced, i mean, spend an extra $300 on your LCD is a much more worthy upgrade, forget the capacitive switches :)
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:03:18
Quote from: manfaux;294848
as much as i like my realforce, I'll have to say they're outrageously overpriced, i mean, spend an extra $300 on your LCD is a much more worthy upgrade, forget the capacitive switches :)


Agreed.  I am glad I bought mine, but I wouldn't buy another unless there was something extremely compelling about it.  That's not to say they (Realforces) aren't, arguably, the best-made keyboards on the planet (you need to tear one down to fully appreciate it), but they are certainly boutique.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:12:13
Topre keyboards are scientifically-proven to enhance your typing experience, your gaming experience and your love life.

Happy Valentine's Day, from Topre.

(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=69&pictureid=614)

+

(http://www.greenheroninn.com/images/wine%20and%20flowers%202.jpg)

=

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/Apemaster/robo_fap.gif)
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:30:41
Quote from: keyboardlover;294855
Topre keyboards are scientifically-proven to enhance your typing experience, your gaming experience and your love life.

Happy Valentine's Day, from Topre.

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=69&pictureid=614)


+

Show Image
(http://www.greenheroninn.com/images/wine%20and%20flowers%202.jpg)


=

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2849&stc=1&d=1245787846) (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6352)

There, FTFY.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:32:59
Ewww...Welly's boxer shorts. I hope he didn't bring those Playboy boxers to India to get married. They are PRETTY conservative over there.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:39:16
There's a lesson in there somewhere about not getting too emotional about keyboards.  It'll drive a man crazy.  Welly never learned that lesson.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: sixty on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:48:07
(http://i.imgur.com/5KAXL.jpg)

wroom wroom

(http://i.imgur.com/4d9LP.jpg)
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: sixty on Mon, 14 February 2011, 11:54:57
I had been indirectly invited to visit the Topre company last year. I may go this year, I'll make sure to ask about dip switches.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: sixty on Mon, 14 February 2011, 12:01:17
They should just offer hasu a job!
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: kill will on Mon, 14 February 2011, 12:09:37
topre is from hot shots ... charlie sheen plays topre
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: godly_music on Mon, 14 February 2011, 13:27:39
Quote from: Nibble
What is so special about topre?


The price.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 13:56:05
Not really. IBM model m minis, g80-3494's, various vintage cherry keyboards, various Asian forum custom keyboards and many others are all in the topre price range.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: RiGS on Mon, 14 February 2011, 14:23:07
The obsession with topre reminds me of an episode of South Park.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/dMhzNdeb1c4 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/dMhzNdeb1c4)
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 14:43:22
I think the "obsession" with Topre is long gone from Geekhack.  Back in the day, when Lal and rdjack21 used to be around, there were a lot more emotions around Topre.  I think it's all about trying what's available and making a judgment from there.  There are a lot of good 'boards and switches out there, and you (and certainly, I) don't like them all, but as the ghetto saying goes, "real recognizes real."  Cherry browns might be my favorite switch, but Topre makes a strong 'board in the Realforce, and I don't know of a Cherry 'board on the market right now that compares (EDIT: maybe a Filco w/Cherry doubleshots).
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: jbl on Mon, 14 February 2011, 14:58:14
+1 on all the talk about the cost of the Topre. There are certainly other keyboards that are just as expensive, but Model M minis and other vintage boards in the same price range are presumably there because of their relative rarity. Topres are current production boards and I think that makes the price a bit more difficult to swallow.

They have a very different feel than what one would normally think of as a mechanical keyboard. It's a lot smoother and less mechanical. What sets the board apart from other rubber dome board is the keyswitch mechanism which actuates in the middle of the stroke rather than at the bottom like most rubber dome/membrane boards. This allows for key action that's much lighter.

Another difference is, of course, the build quality, which is top notch. One of my officemates described it as "a keyboard designed by engineers for engineers." The finish quality and parts fitment is simply top notch. SriClickAlot describes it as the Porsche of keyboards and I think he's right.

Whether the key feel is good or not is a subjective matter... that, combined with the high price, make the board "special."
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:08:52
Quote from: jbl;294965
Another difference is, of course, the build quality, which is top notch. One of my officemates described it as "a keyboard designed by engineers for engineers." The finish quality and parts fitment is simply top notch.


I agree, but don't tell that to the Realforce owners that are complaining of crooked keycaps.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:13:31
Quote from: itlnstln;294968
Realforce owners complaining of crooked keycaps


those dudes should use a model f for awhile. they'll never complain about their girlfriends, er.. realforces again!
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:14:51
I'm pretty sure that was an HHKB owner. Anyway, I forget who it was.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: bugfix on Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:16:17
Quote from: itlnstln;294968
crooked keycaps.


What is that and where on my RF can I find it?
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:19:02
Quote from: keyboardlover;294970
I'm pretty sure that was an HHKB owner. Anyway, I forget who it was.


Nah, there were a couple of people that had white Realforces.  I think one had an 86U and the other a 103UW.   It's nothing I would have ever noticed.  That, and I don't sit directly over my keyboard to see it, anyway.  It's like the lock lights on the Filco.  Sure, they are bright, but I don't sit an angle where they would be in directly in my line-of-sight to matter.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:19:23
Every now and then a GHer here or there complains about some weird symptom that only seems to affect them. 99% of the time it's likely PEBKAC. I think more GHers need to get their eyes checked.

I, for one, wear glasses.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 14 February 2011, 16:06:14
dye-sub ftw! :D

wait, what was this thread about?
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 14 February 2011, 16:08:04
That first pic does look a little funny, but it could be the camera angle.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: guilleguillaume on Mon, 14 February 2011, 16:49:07
My Realforce 91 UBY has a crooked left shift but since it doesn't affect in any way it's functionality it doesn't botter me.

I still prefer to have crooked keycaps ( having one it's not a big deal seriously) than rattle stabilizers all the way down. You can't notice while typing that your left shift it's crooked but you can notice that your stabilizer makes too much noise.

I was not going to return a rare keyboard with limited stock for having one single key crooked that works well. Having more than one key will be so different but it's not the case.

I find Realforce quality to be better than any other keyboards I had. They are expensive of course but same happens to every single thing you can buy out there in life.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 17 February 2011, 06:04:53
My opinion:

Topre is a very nice keyboard. It's well built, has nice feel and produces a nice thock thock sound. It's definitely better than most rubber domes, if not all rubber domes keyboards. That said, I also think that part of its "awesomeness" is psychological. We tend to (consciously or unconsciously) defend our choice as the right choice to make especially when we had to go through a lot of trouble to get something. I say part of it, because the key feel is completely different from even the very good rubber domes keyboards.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 17 February 2011, 06:54:52
I found this pic when writing the DIP Switch Wiki:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15509&stc=1&d=1297947005)

These are force graphs for the Topre switch (left) and standard rubber dome (right). Granted, this is coming from Topre themselves (http://www.topre.co.jp/products/comp/key_point.html), but it's pretty close to reality depending on the rubber dome keyboard your comparing to.  The force needed to press the Topre is a lot less and the travel is a lot smoother.  That's not to say that they don't feel rubber-domish at all, but they do separate themselves significantly.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: Surly73 on Thu, 17 February 2011, 07:23:58
I've never tried a Topre first-hand, but I've seen a number of people write about "soft landing" and the like.  It's odd that the supplied force graph above indicates the opposite - the bottoming out is a sharper increase in force, not more gradual.

I used a Dell Quietkey something like 15 years ago, and it had a mushy bottoming out that some people seem to like around here.  That keyboard completely locked up my forearm muscles in a way I had never experienced before or since.  At first I thought it was wicked RSI but it was something else.  I switched to something, anything else and it went away.

I've seen Quietkeys praised in the past for being really quite good.  I guess I don't react well to them.  I'd hate to buy a Topre for $300 and have the same thing happen.
Title: What is so special about topre?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 17 February 2011, 07:31:50
Quote from: Surly73;296649
I've never tried a Topre first-hand, but I've seen a number of people write about "soft landing" and the like.  It's odd that the supplied force graph above indicates the opposite - the bottoming out is a sharper increase in force, not more gradual.

It's not really the same thing.  The "soft landing" isn't so much like pushing into a pillow; it's more like tapping your finger on your desk vs. tapping it on a mouse pad (like the old-school, fabric-on-foam type).  You still come to a firm stop (as indicated in the graph), but it's neither like slamming into a hard surface, nor is it mushy.  The "soft landing" might be a bit of a misnomer, but it's something that is quite unique to Topres.

EDIT:  Looking back at the graph, you can see the "mush" in the standard rubber dome graph as the force approaches infinity, the graph more gently slopes upward vs. the linear, almost vertical, approach in the Topre graph.