Hi everyone!
I think I am ready to buy my first mechanical keyboard after lurking a few days in this great forum.
I am trying to decide between Filco FKBN87M/EB and Archiss AS-KB87T (Leopold FC200R brown). Assuming I can get them for the same price, which would you recommend?
I know a few people here have both boards, which one do you like more?
I am not in US, so no reason to wait for EK.
On a side note, did anyone manage to convince any of the relevant Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese shops or forwarding services to specify lower price on the shipping box?
Pay your taxes. Helps the poor.
Pay your taxes. Helps the poor.
God only knows what the poor will do if they ever sober up.
Any advice on the Filco vs Leopold question?
I always cite "the Web" when I make an argument.
Pardon my noobish-ness, but I've seen a couple people say that the keys are higher quality on the Leopold. Isn't that a major factor in how it endures the test of time? It seems like something that should tip the scale to me.
The only reason I ask is because I'm also trying to decide between Filco and Leopold as my first mechanical board.
Yeah, the keys are of better quality. But the rest of the board is better built on the Filcos. Keys can be changed, the body can't.
Ah, excellent point. The detachable USB doesn't really do anything for me so I guess it's time to hunt down a Filco brown =D
aww don't go convincing me i shouldn't wait for the leopold =(
Nope. For replacement keycaps check out the group buys section of this board.
I'm just curious, can you link me to where exactly did you see that Leopold's insides weren't as good as Filco's? I see some worries because of the Ducky detachable cable quality but nothing specific for Leopolds...
{...} all blue boards that leave EK are tested to make sure every key clicks {...}
All that said and done, Filco is proven and Leopold/Archiss isn't much of a big name. Filco has customer confidence all over Asia from what I can tell, while the Leopolds/Archiss are smaller distribution with many less customers. Even the Korean gaming pros use Filcos over Leopolds. You figure they'd use the Leopolds if they were just as good?
Then again, their new run might be fantastic and the pros might all switch over. Who knows. It's usually better to go along with the proven brands rather than gamble with your $150.
well the pro gaming scene is all about sponsorship, tons of players are still on the good old Qsenn DT35. The only reason I would want a Filco (if I were to go out and buy another cherry board) over a Leopold right now is probably because of the space bar problem.
afaik Fruitdealer isnt sponsored by 'Filco' he just used the board because it's his favorite. Same for one other Korean pro, don't remember the name. He has very girly hands though...
I'm not familiar with the space bar problem...what's that about?
Actually, I'm pretty sure the entire TSL team uses Filcos (I've seen Tester as well as other use it). Even if they aren't directly sponsored, many teams buy the equipment for their members, and TSL just so happened to pick Filcos.
My cheap $10 dell has lasted 12 years. I've never seen my cheap keyboards EVER break or malfunction. Quality to me seems over rated.
Can majestouch tell us in this thread an ETA of leopolds? Like are they getting their shipment or what? I'm gettin real impatient and might just get a filco from armygroup. And have been thinking that for the past month.
My cheap $10 dell has lasted 12 years. I've never seen my cheap keyboards EVER break or malfunction. Quality to me seems over rated.
Can majestouch tell us in this thread an ETA of leopolds? Like are they getting their shipment or what? I'm gettin real impatient and might just get a filco from armygroup. And have been thinking that for the past month.
Wasn't even aware of that. I guess that just strengthens the argument, then. If one of the best SC2 pro teams chooses the Filco, it's saying something.
I doubt he'll respond. EK sold out of Filcos the day I went to buy them (was on the fence about spending the money) and I waited for what seemed like an eternity. I ordered my Filco off Armygroup this past Friday. Had enough waiting.
Elitekeyboards is horrendous with responding to emails. I've sent 4 emails, never received a response back once.
I won't buy from there even if they come back in stock.
I'm sure the guy can be nice, sometimes, but from the outside looking in it looks like he has terrible customer service. His previous customers might be treated well once they BUY something, but that's not as big as treating potential consumers right. He's just turned me off to EK completely. Will I buy anything from him? Sure, if I can't find it anywhere else for cheaper, because I'd prefer to keep him in business rather than lose our only mech keyboard distributor of note.
Actually the build quality is pretty much on par. Both are decent boards.[...]
Music to my ears; I shall wait and see the loads of reviews/comparisons. :fencing:
That's not really quality. That's like saying a 1985 Honda who has operated without breaking down for 25 years is the same quality as a 2010 Bugatti Veyron.
I think its a little unfair to bash EK for customer service. For all I know, the whole company is just one person. How can they be expected to respond to every email they receive? If you had a bad experience, then that is one thing, but i wouldn't jump to the negative over lack of response.
How do you define quality?
For me I think the criteria is:
durability (materials used, glue, plastics, electronics)
comfort
And that's pretty much it. If I've never seen a $10 dell mess up my entire life then I say it's been effective. My $8k sportbike and $9k truck require constant maintenance and dont last nearly as long as a $10 DELL. LOL.
I think I'm sayin you only need so much quality.
I think its a little unfair to bash EK for customer service. For all I know, the whole company is just one person. How can they be expected to respond to every email they receive? If you had a bad experience, then that is one thing, but i wouldn't jump to the negative over lack of response.
Wasn't even aware of that. I guess that just strengthens the argument, then. If one of the best SC2 pro teams chooses the Filco, it's saying something.
I doubt he'll respond. EK sold out of Filcos the day I went to buy them (was on the fence about spending the money) and I waited for what seemed like an eternity. I ordered my Filco off Armygroup this past Friday. Had enough waiting.
TSL is sponsored by Skydigital nKeyboard. They just happen to have been Filco distributors for years and just started making their own mechanical (http://skyok.co.kr/product.php?code=741). I wouldn't be surprised if the entire TSL team switches to those in next GSL season.
it says nothing about Filco, Startale is sponsored by Zowie and have been rolling with their Celeritas, and we'll probably see Boxer on a blackwidow soon given the deal they just finalized on. They are sportsmen trying to make money, not keyboard enthusiasts.
I'm not familiar with the space bar problem...what's that about?
I thought that this would cause a minor earthquake in the geekhack community. Guess not. Props to us so far. (trollolol)
Majestouch, thanks for the info. Do you know if you'll carry a Leopold (tenkeyless or otherwise) with cherry reds?
Actually the build quality is pretty much on par. Both are decent boards. The illusion that Filco boards are of high quality was probably caused by Majestouch manually sorting out bad ones before shipping. Ever noticed how the amount of topics for faulty Filcos significantly increased since they stopped shipping from the US and are coming n from Taiwan and the UK instead? Can't be a coincidence.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the real reason for breakup between EK and Diatec?
diatec can go **** themselves for all I care, mechanical keyboards ain't no rocket propeller or nuclear warheads, plenty of other manufacturers already do a good job of making them, if they don't want to do business with us then it's their problem.
How do you know they don't want to do business with "us"? All I know they no longer do business with EK. To paraphrase your message, importing and distributing ain't no rocket science...
How do you know they don't want to do business with "us"? All I know they no longer do business with EK. To paraphrase your message, importing and distributing ain't no rocket science...
Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.
I doubt that's how they feel. It was probably a personal thing between Majestouch and his Diatec rep. Majestouch probably asked them to do better quality screenings, rep got insulted, started acting cold to Majestouch. Doing business with Asians (especially Japanese/Koreans/Taiwanese) is tough ****.
Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.
Actually, it's a LOT harder than you think.
Don't even try to pretend to know what I think. :smile: There might be "a lot to it" but it most certainly "ain't rocket science". I would still say making the damn things is a lot harder than importing them.
Jibber jabber jibber jabber.
I won't speculate on the quality of one versus the other until the Leopolds start shipping in volume.
Anybody remember Moogle's Filco Versus Ducky comparisons? After the initial Chinaphilia the Duckies ended up being pretty Sucky.
Tons of people have posted reviews the Leopolds on OTD, they look just fine, there are a few things here and there which are inferior to the Filco but nothing really noticeable unless you own a microscope. But ya you are right, until we all get Leopolds in our own hands, no further conclusions should be drawn about them.
Jibber jabber jibber jabber.
I won't speculate on the quality of one versus the other until the Leopolds start shipping in volume.
Don't pretend to know the process that goes into procuring goods
If making them was so hard, they wouldn't be making them in Taiwan utilizing extremely cheap labor.
I don't pretend to know. I know. YOU on the other hand, do pretend to know my level of experience and knowledge on this subject.
Taiwan has extremely cheap labor? Somebody needs another course...
Taiwan has "extremely cheap labor" and for that reason Taiwanese manufacturers are relocating their factories to Chengdu? You are making less and less sense...
Don't pretend to know the process that goes into procuring goods, just like I don't pretend to know what goes into rocket science.
Making them isn't 'a lot harder,' it's a simple assembly-line process. If making them was so hard, they wouldn't be making them in Taiwan utilizing extremely cheap labor.
I won't go into the processes required in procuring goods here, as I'm sure people that have gone through these motions (i.e. - majestouch) understand it's no walk in the park.
I'd agree with Neo here. I think XL you might be oversimplifying product production.
I'd think that transporting goods, and working out a deal, would be way easier than engineering products, assembling them, hiring people to work on them, etc.
Say it costs $30 to ship something from Europe to USA considering all the costs to get to your doorstop. Jet fuel, diesel fuel for semi-trucks, gasoline for UPS trucks, driver labor, computer systems (tracking, clerks, paperwork).
If I had to chose which would be less stressful, faster, easier I'd say acquiring 10,000 keyboards from overseas would be easier. The production process takes capital, months of planning, employment, etc, whereas making a deal can be done in 24 hours over a phone call just choosing a shipping method.
Idk.
Derail complete.
I'd agree with Neo here. I think XL you might be oversimplifying product production.
I'd think that transporting goods, and working out a deal, would be way easier than engineering products, assembling them, hiring people to work on them, etc.
Say it costs $30 to ship something from Europe to USA considering all the costs to get to your doorstop. Jet fuel, diesel fuel for semi-trucks, gasoline for UPS trucks, driver labor, computer systems (tracking, clerks, paperwork).
If I had to chose which would be less stressful, faster, easier I'd say acquiring 10,000 keyboards from overseas would be easier. The production process takes capital, months of planning, employment, etc, whereas making a deal can be done in 24 hours over a phone call just choosing a shipping method.
Idk.
Derail complete.
well importing 10,000 of anything isn't just a simple matter of making a call and choosing a shipping method, there is such a thing called the customs.
XL, thank you good sir for the knowledge. How much do I owe you? Paypal? :P
Leopold has a cooler name. Therefore they are better.
Just sayin'.
All I know is that when I order something from China, it's here in 7 days. EMS is freakin' fast!
Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.
Makes sense to me. This map looks oddly missing something (and I'm not talking Nigeria).
I initially emailed Diatec in December. They said they were working out an agreement with a new distributor for North America, and initially hoped to announce by the end of January. I emailed them again last week, and they said they're still working on the agreement and hope to announce by the end of February.
I'm not holding my breath for the end of February, but it does look like there will be a new North American Filco distributor in the not-to-distant future. I look forward to having a state side choice for both Filco and Leopold, and will wait until that time to make a decision.
I really want US distribution for Ducky, KBC, and Noppoo too. Choice and more competition are great, but that's probably not happening in the same timeframe. I'd also love to tell someone that I have have a (K)ey(B)oard to (C)heer You Up...I can see the rolleyes now from the unenlightened. :)
Thanks for posting that.
Makes sense to me. This map looks oddly missing something (and I'm not talking Nigeria).Show Image(http://www.overclock.net/attachments/keyboards/196211d1298059937-mechanical-keyboard-guide-k04.jpg)
Waiting for these distributors to get their act together is like waiting for Sandy Bridge parts.
I really hope not Newegg...their shipping and tax totally rapes us Californians :(
The Keyboard Company will be partnering Diatec to address the situation and there will be news within weeks about Filco availability in USA.
one of the many reasons i don't miss living in California... no sales tax here in Oregon
Hi all,
Hot thread here:)
First off, I should apologize (partly) for the wait, but in all fairness, EK has never officially announced we'd be carrying Leopold keyboards on our website; we've only alluded to it;)
The current state of things is that the manufacturing end has not held up to their delivery promises; so while we originally planned a 1 month delay, things are getting pushed back a few more weeks. As of this week, ETA is now mid-March, but I'm waiting for a solid date before I announce anything officially.
Don't want to be entirely OT, so with respect to the OP, despite that he/she may have already decided, I will give my two cents on the question of FILCO or Leopold for the record.
My somewhat detailed comparison:
-Case: I've heard some people like the sharper angles of the FILCO, and my eye somewhat agrees, but I do like how the Leopold case is much easier to open (you just use a credit card) and the cable channels are nice; aesthetic perceptions are forgiving with time (ugly wife, but a good cook, etc.). Both cases are similar in strength and flex.
-Keycaps: The FILCO key coating and pad printing look nice a first but current revisions (last 2 years) don't age well; Leopold's keycaps don't have a coating that wears off and even if the white in-fill of the lasered lettering wears off or chips away (probably will), the letter is there to stay.
-PCB: this is really up in the air, both boards have similar material quality, though on close inspection I'd say the Leopold has a slightly more durable physical trace design for this type of PCB material when used with plate mounted switches; but time will tell. Through-hole diodes on Leopold versus SMD on FILCO; it doesn't really matter, though I've seen more SMD diodes fail than through-hole in my days, it's almost statistically insignificant.
-Controller: Same basic features; FILCO uses Holtek, Leopold uses Cypress. We did see a lot of bricks with the Holteks in FILCOs, and despite FILCO putting the controllers on modules, I'm still hearing DOA stories from folks who recently bought a FILCO from overseas (EK tested every board, apparently overseas sellers do not:( ). It's hard to think Cypress will be any worse, time will tell:)
Note: while FILCO may have some advantage of having a detachable controller board; i.e. you don't have to scrap the entire board...actually getting replacement controller boards is another question (FILCO's parent doesn't stock them, nor do distributors).
-Stabilizers: Leopold stabilizers are from Cherry and make for easy keycap removal (cleaning and replacement); FILCO stablizers have a slightly smoother travel than the Cherries (if greased), but are a pain in the arse to remove and replace and are easy to break.
-Misc: They're both made-in-TW mechanicals that are designed by the same designer (who doesn't work for either company). The FILCO design was originally intended to be minimalistic and sturdy and the Leopold design follows the same vein, but Leopold adds the detachable cable and takes some queues from Realforce boards by adding cable channels on the underside of the board and 2-angle feet with softer rubber in the front for better traction. One concern I have about Leopolds is that the detachable cable connectors (same on Duckys) are probably *not* of the same ilk as the connector on an HHKB Pro, so there is a question of tolerances, reliability, how they'll age, etc.
Some other thoughts...
Member sixty has a point about FILCO, EK did do a lot of filtering (yes Ripster, some Saturday nights were wasted), and we really pushed FILCO's parent hard to make improvements to their boards; with minor success. Coincidentally and *completely* unrelated, the RK-9000 is a nice board...(Oh well, water under the bridge.) The FILCO name is what it is today, in part, due to the fact that EK carried it. And any product that EK carries in the future is going to go through the same quality filter and we'll work to make improvements where necessary. Fortunately, the team at Leopold has a strong future and is much more in tune with our direction and methods than FILCO was.
Just a sidenote, you may ask why the rubber on the fold-out feet of the FILCOs was scrapped in the Leopold design. On the FILCO it was necessary to compensate for the fact that the front rubber feet barely provided any traction when the back feet were folded out (due to the angle the front pads are mounted at). The rubber fold out feet were a band-aid that had the occasional side effect akin to getting your foot stuck in between some rocks, wherein you could end up with a broken ankle; so with the Leopold design the rubber on the foldout feet was removed and more traction was added with a second set of front feet that have full contact with your desk while the back feet are folded out. Who knew Topre had it right from the beginning! R&D sometimes saves money down the line;)
BTW, bytemeavaj (assuming you read this far!), sorry if I didn't respond to your last PM, I wasn't pissed, just inundated with other requests from other people for the same items. I kind of look at classifieds here as a swap-meet-like environment where people make offers and try to barter, and if you get ignored or passed by, then your offer wasn't attractive, that's it. You don't sweat it, you make another offer or move on to the next booth, etc.
Also, if you sent an e-mail to the tune of "where are themz leopoldz?" to the EK sales address, then you're on the very bottom of the response pile (with those people who ask for unwarranted discounts and waivers of sales tax). It's not meant in any disrespect, but given the volume of such mails, and presence of a message in the side bar of every product page on our website addressing that the announcement of the new boards will be via newsletter...I cannot guarantee a response. Though if you're tremendously polite, an existing customer, or just darn creative I might bite:) If you sent such an inquiry to the support address, then it was probably deleted. Yes, existing customers have priority; that won't change.
Ok, that's the most of it...for what I lack in brevity I hope I make up for in quality;)