If that pressure sensitivity feature pans out, then I would definitely pick up one of those tiny keyboard game pads just for that feature.
I think pressure sensitivity would only work well if the switches are linear, which is how the analog triggers on console controllers behave.
I think pressure sensitivity would only work well if the switches are linear, which is how the analog triggers on console controllers behave.
It could apply to only one phase of the stroke, where the force graph is linear, or almost linear. I think it makes the most sense to have it below the activation point.
Well, I can't get excited about 17KRO. I never cared and I never will. Maybe gamers have 17 fingers and can or want to press that many buttons at the same time, but I'm quite happy pressing 3 at a time at most, 2 of those being some permutation of Shift/Ctrl/Alt.
Thinking about this, MS should bake the basic drivers into windows and make some keyboards with a pressure sensitive arrow cluster and normal rubber domes everywhere else. That probably wouldn't drive up the costs too much and give plug & play access to the main use scenario. Scrolling and navigating MS Office documents and browser windows would be so much nicer.
P.S. Full disclosure: In case it wasn't obvious, I work for Microsoft as a researcher in the Applied Sciences Group...
This is good stuff. If you're going to work on a solution to allow larger combinations of keys to pressed without blocking, you might as well make it so all the keys can be pressed together without blocking. Thanks for sharing this insight, Paul.
For all I care, you can keep your proprietary 'technology' entirely to your selves,
it's bad enough that we defenceless consumers have to deal with your stupid Windows-logo keys,
the lawyer-babble on the stickers and all the nonsense language from your marketing-division .
But Hey, since you have decided to not make a trillion dollars on this it
may end up as a bigger success than the other 'technology' 'invented' by Micr0$0ft,
'Bob' ....
PS : I'm pretty certain that 'Extreme', 'anti', 'ghosting', 'The Masses'
and any combination are Registered Trademarks or patented 'technologies' .
A bunch of bull**** from a guy whose screen name is another word for "****."
Let me guess.
You guys are from OCN. (http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/736015-microsoft-sidewinder-x4.html)
Average age is 30 at Geekhack. Not 12.
Time for the World's Only Doubleshot Windows Logo KeyShow Image(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5015/5399584198_1cb750840b_z.jpg)
You spelled defenseless wrong you moron.
Hey, maybe he hasn't got a fence in his yard! Do you have a fence in your yard? :peep:
There is a presumption that it's much cheaper to add pressure sensitivity to only a few keys.
Time for the World's Only Doubleshot Windows Logo KeyShow Image(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5015/5399584198_1cb750840b_z.jpg)
You spelled defenseless wrong you moron.
All keyboard engineers have to do is reverse engineer the Sidewinder X4 USB interface. No new protocols needed.So the Sidewinder X4 has pressure gradient sensitive keys then? ...
It would be pretty cool if pressure sensitivity was also variable (on or off) with some kind of switch or setting. That way you could type on it regularly without the world going haywire.
Hey, here's an idea. Don't be a douchebag. He didn't have to tell us a damn thing. He didn't have to make an attempt to associate with the community. He sure as hell doesn't owe you a damn thing. If you don't like him or what his company sells, there are alternatives. Get linux, get a mac, get a goddamn dog, I don't care. We'd like to encourage more developer discussion with the enthusiast community, not discourage it.
You spelled defenseless wrong you moron.
And "yourselves." Hey, but what do expect from an 8th-grader?
I thought it said "extreme anti-goating coming to the masses...", maybe it's because I recently watched "The Men Who Stare at Goats"
When I first read the thread title quickly, I thought it said "extreme anti-goating coming to the masses...", maybe it's because I recently watched "The Men Who Stare at Goats", :wink:.
Other people here might be able to answer the question I have, though.
The Model F was around... for a long time. Why hasn't anyone, except Topre, used capacitative technology to provide better multitouch without diodes? Is Topre's approach - which I presume is well-protected by patents - the only one possible, apart from the buckling spring (or the beam spring, which is too expensive to consider)?
I would have thought that you could just take a rubber dome sheet, paint conductive dots on it, and then coat it with an insulating layer - and, poof, you have a capacitative keyboard that works, and, no, you don't need the springs. What am I missing?
Given that Ghosting is a pretty severe keyboard design failure that most keyboards don't have, the OP title is like advertising a car with "EXTREME ANTI-EXPLODING ENGINE DESIGN".
Someone needs to figure out the difference between ghosting and blocking...
Either way, the last I checked, diodes are pretty cheap compared with capacitive contacts.
Keytronic and BTC used to have capacitive foam'n'foil switches back in the day.Of course, foam and foil - used on the Atex keyboard, as someone here mentioned - is generally considered pretty horrible from a tactile point of view.
Either way, the last I checked, diodes are pretty cheap compared with capacitive contacts.It isn't so much the diodes, as soldering them in to the circuit board. But even capacitative - since it usually uses a PC board for the contacts, rather than a membrane - adds significant manufacturing costs, which is likely one reason why it isn't used more.
...Other people here might be able to answer the question I have, though....
...I would have thought that you could just take a rubber dome sheet, paint conductive dots on it, and then coat it with an insulating layer - and, poof, you have a capacitative keyboard that works, and, no, you don't need the springs. What am I missing?
....Keytronic and BTC used to have capacitive foam'n'foil switches back in the day. The more simplified mechanism you describe could work, but perhaps it would not be precise enough to provide reliable capacitive switching?....
It isn't so much the diodes, as soldering them in to the circuit board. But even capacitative - since it usually uses a PC board for the contacts, rather than a membrane - adds significant manufacturing costs, which is likely one reason why it isn't used more.
I think rechecking the target group definitions might do. A thread title like this is clearly targeting the un-/misinformed masses. Fine all by itself, but not ideal in a place where people are aware of said difference.
this is exciting... minus the fact that (if waiting for clickclacks and leopolds are any indication), it will take forever to migrate to mechanical keyboards
Have you seen the amount of circuitry on the Topre PCB? It's cost.
Unless of course you can drive the volume. Then it gets cheap.
You can buy one of these for one Topre.
also it's not like i'm against it; I've been waiting that for years. The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).
The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).
Actually, they still do have pressure-sensitive buttons. It's just that most games don't bother to use them in that way. Analog triggers are much easier to use for throttling the amount of pressure, and games generally don't need more than 2 such inputs (usually gas and brake for driving games, which if you ask me is pretty much why they were invented in the first place).
One game that can use the sensitivity is Gran Turismo 5, although I would switch to the analog triggers anyway because it makes it a lot easier. Well, before I got a wheel I would. :)
Analog (=not on-off) controls are pretty much a must for enjoying driving games, so it's far from a useless feature.
I have GT5 and a PS3 slim, so I went ahead and tried it just now. I remapped throttle and brake to the triggers when I got the game in order to get analog controls, and even murmured "what were they thinking" under my breath. It turns out that the face buttons are indeed pressure sensitive, which I never expected. You get passable control with them, I can keep the car at 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 throttle fairly easily, but of course I have to watch the on-screen throttle and brake displays for that. The trigger buttons are way better, because you always know how far you've pressed them without having to rely on some in-game indirect feedback.
So I guess that settles it, the PS3 has pressure sensitive face buttons (all 8 of them), but nobody knows it. They don't work all that great, to be honest. I'm not sure when I got my ps3, about a year ago I guess. There might have been a silent hw revision since I got mine, but I seriously doubt they took out the feature. Mine is a slim so there has been no major announced hardware change since it was made.
I have no idea what technology sony uses for this, but it's somewhat promising for the MS tech. These things don't feel any different from any rubber domes when they bottom out, so the pressure sensitivity could be an add-on that doesn't change the button feel at all. Of course it would only work with keyboards where you have to bottom out all the time, so mechanicals are pretty much out. Again, they don't give you too nuanced control, but they could be used for adjusting the weight where keypresses are registered, and some scrolling/panning/zooming/moving around features.
This might still be semi on topic-
My PS2 controler is pressure sensitive and used it extensively for the GT series. My friends PS3 controler is also pressure sensitive in the same way but also adds pressure/travel sensitivity on the L and R buttons.
Having used it a long time I can easily employ the sensitivity of the X and O buttons for further control. They are quite effective, they just have little travel since they are also tiny and tactile. If you just want to hit the button once it registers the input, if you hold it down it registers as "ON" if you press harder it registers more. It is surprisingly very, very sensitive and precise!
I hope that helped someone, somewhere in the universe.
=)
what it's interesting is why microsoft dropped pressure sensitive buttons on the 360 (xbox1 face buttons have it. 360s don't) and now comes back to the same but for keyboards.
The I-pac2 FS32 had the same problem in early firmware, even though i twas supposed to send up to 24 simultaneously, but Andy was able to extend the number of flawless keypresses sent, from 12 to 18 (pretty sure it was either 18 or 19), by doing a workaround for the MS Keyboard driver, that involved increasing some sort of packet size.
You should have seen how OCN treated him:
http://www.overclock.net/t/736015/microsoft-sidewinder-x4
You should have seen how OCN treated him:
http://www.overclock.net/t/736015/microsoft-sidewinder-x4
Of course now Geekhack is OCN......
It seems to me the more money people spent for their keyboards, the more likely they are to have unrealistic views about how well their keyboard performs. In a similar vein, I think there are some people that REALLY want MS stuff to have problems. And that unintentionally impacts their judgement.
Am I the only one that thinks this thread is just a big massive troll ? Seems like it.