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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 12:56:01

Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 12:56:01: This picture will explain the Leopold space bar problem once and for all - maybe we could add this to the Wiki?
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15866&stc=1&d=1299468175)

Edit:standard Filco size space bars, note the distance between the 2 side dummy stems from the middle ream switch.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5149972382_3398f9316f_z.jpg)

Courtesy of Ripster and Luis from KBDMania
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=best_article&page=2&document_srl=1756003
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: Culinia on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:01:19: Sorry but I have nothing to compare it with. Is it the fact that the Leopold does not have any stabilizers like the Filco and so a different shape or something?
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:07:39: Quote from: Culinia;298335
Sorry but I have nothing to compare it with. Is it the fact that the Leopold does not have any stabilizers like the Filco and so a different shape or something?

The stabilizers are standard Cherry crop style. and the space bar dimensions are exactly the same as Filco's (6.25 units, 118mm)

The only difference is the positioning of the 2 dummy switches on each side of the real switch, they are spaced 40mm apart from the center stem. (something like 52mm for filco/ducky/das), causing space bar key cap compatibility issues :)
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:17:06: It would help explain the issue if you posted a picture from one of the other keyboards that uses Cherry style stabilizers, so that we can visually compare. From that image and the OP, I'm totally at a loss as to what the "problem" is.

Not trying to be offensive, but visual representation of information is an important topic that almost no one ever talks about. The OP here clearly shows why it should be.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:27:52: Quote from: theferenc;298342
It would help explain the issue if you posted a picture from one of the other keyboards that uses Cherry style stabilizers, so that we can visually compare. From that image and the OP, I'm totally at a loss as to what the "problem" is.

Not trying to be offensive, but visual representation of information is an important topic that almost no one ever talks about. The OP here clearly shows why it should be.

you're right, I updated the OP with a shot at the Filco space bar stabilizers, thanks to Ripster's picture.

But I suspect anyone who has ever taken a look at what's under their Filco space bar could immediately recognize the difference.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:34:19: Quote from: ripster;298344
Well, that was dumb.

Haven't they heard of standards?

I'll add to the Key Reference Wiki a link.

Sixty was spreading a rumor at DA that the stabilizers are Cherry Corp clones but I'm not seeing it.

Look pretty standard issue to me but I don't own a Leopold - Majestouch doesn't like me anymore.
Show Image
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5295/5427984887_6a6c14f760_z.jpg)

that'd be great!

as for the stabilizers body themselves, do they make any difference at all whatsoever?
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:46:18: Quote from: ripster;298353
I prefer Filcos since they feel better.

Agreed. The difference is subtle but it's there, especially on the space bar.

Although I think the Leopold setup is slightly better than the Cherry/ducky, will have to see when I get my hands on them.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:49:10: Quote from: manfaux;298349
you're right, I updated the OP with a shot at the Filco space bar stabilizers, thanks to Ripster's picture.

But I suspect anyone who has ever taken a look at what's under their Filco space bar could immediately recognize the difference.

I guess that's where my issue came from. I don't own a Filco, as I don't like Cherry switches, so I've never pulled a space bar from one.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 20 February 2011, 13:54:10: Reading comprehension of a single sentence and a picture?
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 16:55:45: got a better pic here:

Leo at bottom

(http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/files/attach/images/6138/458/010/002/IMG_0622_2.jpg)
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: RiGS on Sun, 20 February 2011, 17:18:09: Maybe this change somehow prevent the space bar from rattly stabilization or alter the feel somehow.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 17:56:53: Quote from: RiGS;298453
Maybe this change somehow prevent the space bar from rattly stabilization or alter the feel somehow.

That's what I thought, I see no reason to alter the original Filco design if it doesn't make a difference after all. The Leopold's stabilizer design actually makes more sense, since the shorter wire connecting the 2 dummy stems will definitely make an overall studier construction and allow less rattling.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: sixty on Sun, 20 February 2011, 17:57:00: The reason they did this is so that they can have the same PCB for all language variants. Some variants add a few extra keys on the space row, like the Japanese one. On this board the same PCB can be used because the way the spacebar has been stabilized.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 17:57:38: Quote from: ripster;298475
Maybe he used to be an Apple engineer. "Think Different - Think Non-Standard Implementations".

Wow - waiting for a KBDMania pic to load is like having sex listening to Barry White (aka The Love Walrus). Long songs that don't peak too early.

Edit: Got in a Youtube video before it stopped loading.

Wow - in my neighborhood I've never seen that many black people in the symphony audience, let alone on stage

Not gonna waste Geekhack server storage :)
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 18:00:09: Quote from: sixty;298478
The reason they did this is so that they can have the same PCB for all language variants. Some variants add a few extra keys on the space row, like the Japanese one. On this board the same PCB can be used because the way the spacebar has been stabilized.

I thought the dummy switches are mounted on the metal plate? That's why you see the 2 extra slots on the plate on the Filco.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: sixty on Sun, 20 February 2011, 18:06:58: I expressed myself in the wrong way. What I meant is that they can use the same PCB design, while keeping the spacebar size (physically, as in the size of the stabilizer bar and the size on the PCB design, the same, while only the keycap changes.

This alone probably saves a lot in costs. I took a picture of it somewhere, let me find it again.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Sun, 20 February 2011, 18:20:59: Quote from: sixty;298486
I expressed myself in the wrong way. What I meant is that they can use the same PCB design, while keeping the spacebar size (physically, as in the size of the stabilizer bar and the size on the PCB design, the same, while only the keycap changes.

This alone probably saves a lot in costs. I took a picture of it somewhere, let me find it again.

got ya, that's pretty clever, Diatech needs to start doing this so we can all have the same god damn space bar.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: sixty on Sun, 20 February 2011, 18:21:54: Found the pic, added labels.

(http://i.imgur.com/9gHj5.jpg)
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: sixty on Sun, 20 February 2011, 18:36:27: It was faster that way! Add some flux and solder into the fryer, then drop in the PCB for 2 mins. 87 switches in 10 seconds!
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: wanabe on Mon, 21 February 2011, 16:15:27: So all these custom keycap sets that we have now from ducky, kbc, sp, etc. Aren't fully compatible with leopolds due to the space bar? Not that it matter much, people seem to often prefer black anyways
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 21 February 2011, 16:42:32: Quote from: wanabe;298970
So all these custom keycap sets that we have now from ducky, kbc, sp, etc. Aren't fully compatible with leopolds due to the space bar? Not that it matter much, people seem to often prefer black anyways

Correct.

If you really want to swap the space bar though, the modding isn't too hard, just cut those side shafts on the spacebar off and glue them to the correct position :)
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 22 February 2011, 00:08:39: If they would just have put extra holes for the stabilizers in the "right" position on the plate it would have been really easy to swap to another space. The only thing needed would be a longer stabilizer bar.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: Engine on Sun, 20 March 2011, 02:11:12: I'm not personally concerned about this, although I do wonder if Leopold will come out with something for customization, since they apparently designed this board the way they did?
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 22 March 2011, 01:09:20: Quote from: Engine;314657
I'm not personally concerned about this, although I do wonder if Leopold will come out with something for customization, since they apparently designed this board the way they did?

The pcbs are made with holes for a lot of different options to make it possible to use the same design everywhere. It would be easy to modify an ISO board to have a long left shift for example if it weren't for the, mounting plate... On pcb mounted boards this is of course less of a problem. Then of course I don't know if the controller would handle the new layout or if they are differently programmed on different boards. This is rather easy to check though, just short one of the unused switch positions and see if the beard sends the correct keypress.
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: xjchew on Tue, 22 March 2011, 01:19:50: Looks like my DAS Ultimate's spacebar has e same positions for the stabs as the Leopold, Ripster u might wana add that into the wiki..
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: jdreamer on Sun, 27 March 2011, 07:43:17: Wonder how long does it take for someone to come out with a custom spacebar for Archiss/Leopold...
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 30 March 2011, 03:26:25: I would think the distance to the dummy crosses, from the center one, on the leopold space bars is 1.5" (=38.1mm) to be exact since this is exactly two keys wide and one of cherry (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm)'s standard measurements which SP also uses for the 6x wide space bars I've got from them. Someone should confirm this of course, I guess they might be using their own standard...
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: xjchew on Wed, 30 March 2011, 03:47:23: Quote from: ripster;319529
The spacebar stuff is in the Key Reference Wiki although it looks like the Das 3 and Das S spacebars have different stem spacing.

Makes sense.. mine is a DAS 3...
Title: Leopold Space Bar
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 31 March 2011, 06:42:03: Quote from: PrinsValium;321239
I would think the distance to the dummy crosses, from the center one, on the leopold space bars is 1.5" (=38.1mm) to be exact since this is exactly two keys wide and one of cherry (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm)'s standard measurements which SP also uses for the 6x wide space bars I've got from them. Someone should confirm this of course, I guess they might be using their own standard...

I think I'll have to revise my claim here. The distance probably is 40mm I just measured the distance between those extra slots seen in the picture of the filco, exactly 80mm as far as I can tell. Which should mean that a leopold space bar will fit a filco if the stabilizer mounts are moved to the other set of slots and the bar itself slightly modded.