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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: RiGS on Sun, 20 February 2011, 14:21:25
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I am about to buy a Realforce Topre keyboard, but the spacebar angled to such a degree that really concerns me. Reversing the space bar on my SS was easy, but what about the Realforce space bar?
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I don't really notice the angle too much tbh. I don't think it will be much of problem for you.
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It is certainly a problem for me even with my more forgiving Steelseries, but because of the Cherry stabilizers the fix was easy I just reversed the space bar and the result was incredibly comfortable.
Is it possible to do this mod with the Realforce stabilizer/space bar?
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I've never really understood this "angled spacebar" thing. Do people not hit the spacebar on the top of the key?
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The Topre spacebar has the front edge higher than the other. Because of that it feels "sharp" when you put your thumb on it.
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http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=297035&postcount=17 (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=297035&postcount=17)
According to this post the stablized keys can be mounted only one way. :(
I should forget about buying a Realforce.
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Never bothered me and actually haven't noticed until I saw this post. I've been using my realforce for 3+ years now. I did notice recently where my thumb presses the space bar, it's getting a little shiny.
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Ripster, thanks for the picture. I can't wait to get my hands on that 45g uniform Topre.
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I've had my Realforce for 5 days now... coming from a cheapo Microsoft Wireless 3000. I use the 'feet' on the RF to prop it up, and have zero complaints or qualms about the space bar. I went straight from a cheap membrane keyboard to the Topre without ever trying a Cherry MX or ALPS or Buckling. LOOOOVE the Realforce.
Also, I have 'piano hands' so even with an elongated reach, I don't notice a sharp edge on the RF space bar!? Others do though, I guess.
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LOOOOVE the Realforce.
Welcome to the club!
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I just reversed the space bar on my new Realforce as well.
I like my topre keyboard much more this way.
I didn't have a keypuller, so I took apart the case, and removed the alt keys to get an easy access to the spacebar.
I was very careful not to break the stabilizer.
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Cool.
Story.
Bro.
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Wouldn't it have been so much easier to just buy two wire key pullers?
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Wouldn't reversing it just make it feel more odd?
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Wouldn't reversing it just make it feel more odd?
Not if you hit the spacebar in an angle.
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Wouldn't it have been so much easier to just buy two wire key pullers?
I didn't want to wait, and it took me like 5 minutes.
Also this way I had a chance to look inside the case.
Wouldn't reversing it just make it feel more odd?
Nope, it feels awesome.
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So was the PCB sexy? Did you take naked pics?
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I've been using the topre for many months now as my daily driver and i can tell you i never noticed any discomfort. Infact my topre came to me in a vision and said if i ever complained about it , it will kill me.
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It surely is the keyboard of DOOM then.
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So was the PCB sexy? Did you take naked pics?
The pcb is top-notch. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me.
The case design is screw-less. I used a key for depressing the tabs.
It went like a charm!
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This topic is hard to search for; too many common keywords, but it has been brought up here time and time again.
RiGS, if the spacebar feels sharp, then no offense, but chances are you're doing something wrong.
Topre spacebars have a sharper angle than most keyboards these days, but this isn't a thoughtless design decision: it's intended to compliment and encourage good typing form.
If any part of your justification in buying a Topre keyboard involves improving comfort or typing efficiency. Then before shelling out over $200, it would make good sense to consider how you figure into the equation. You might be the source of your discomfort if:
1. You're not sitting up straight
2. Your board is at a level that doesn't allow your elbows to form a 90deg angle
3. You're resting your palms on the desk or a wrist rest whilst typing
4. You didn't fold the keyboard feet out
I know this list might sound like something a nun with a ruler, ready to smack the backs of your hands with, would demand of everyone in the classroom, but it really will make a difference for most folks.
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Well I certainly don't conform to the last two. I like the keys as flat as possible for when I play games so I don't have the stands down, just what I'm comfortable with.
I'm too scared to pop off the space bar and turn it around, feels like I'm going to snap it in half.
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This topic is hard to search for; too many common keywords, but it has been brought up here time and time again.
RiGS, if the spacebar feels sharp, then no offense, but chances are you're doing something wrong.
Topre spacebars have a sharper angle than most keyboards these days, but this isn't a thoughtless design decision: it's intended to compliment and encourage good typing form.
If any part of your justification in buying a Topre keyboard involves improving comfort or typing efficiency. Then before shelling out over $200, it would make good sense to consider how you figure into the equation. You might be the source of your discomfort if:
1. You're not sitting up straight
2. Your board is at a level that doesn't allow your elbows to form a 90deg angle
3. You're resting your palms on the desk or a wrist rest whilst typing
4. You didn't fold the keyboard feet out
I know this list might sound like something a nun with a ruler, ready to smack the backs of your hands with, would demand of everyone in the classroom, but it really will make a difference for most folks.
Thanks for your input. You are definitely right.
TBH I did not buy it for ergonomic reasons.
I bought it, because I was curious about the Topre switch, and it was a good bargain.
I play more than I type, and I prefer to rest my palm on the desk, and I certainly don't use the keyboard feet.
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I play more than I type, and I prefer to rest my palm on the desk, and I certainly don't use the keyboard feet.
Same with me.
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Everyone keeps insisting that I must be using the keyboard wrong, too, RiGS, but frankly, I've been typing fast and happily since I was a very wee boy and never had any issue till I bought my Filco and starting hammering my vulnerable, squishy thumb-parts into that damnable knife-edge space bar.
I've adapted to it, certainly, mostly because I do *not* have the guts to pull apart a delicate stabilizer mechanism on a $160 keyboard, no matter what anyone says. But that doesn't make the damnable space bar a pleasure to type on, either :)
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Everyone keeps insisting that I must be using the keyboard wrong, too, RiGS, but frankly, I've been typing fast and happily since I was a very wee boy and never had any issue till I bought my Filco and starting hammering my vulnerable, squishy thumb-parts into that damnable knife-edge space bar.
I've adapted to it, certainly, mostly because I do *not* have the guts to pull apart a delicate stabilizer mechanism on a $160 keyboard, no matter what anyone says. But that doesn't make the damnable space bar a pleasure to type on, either :)
I encourage you to try it. Your thumb will be glad.
There is really nothing you can loose.
wiki on how to remove those key (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12649#Pulling+Keys+With+Stabilizers+-+Korean+Kung+Fu+Style)
how to put it back (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12649#Reinstalling+Keys)
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Except for the space bar on his newly acquired $160 keyboard, but hey.. who ever uses that key anyway :p
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That's very unlikely. It is not that easy to break a costar stabilizer.
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I have dexterity approximately equal to that of a dead cat.
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I have dexterity approximately equal to that of a dead cat.
Then it should be a piece of cake.
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OK...
I follow everything technical in the thread, and I don't conform to the Majestouch nun form when typing, but from this thread I'm not following the problem you're all trying to solve. Pain from a Filco spacebar? never felt any.
I feel that my Realforce spacebar might feel a little strange, but certainly not painful. Perhaps, if anything, it feelw *less* edgey than others to me. As I said, unless the previous owner flipped it around I'm not following...
RiGS, can you provide an "after" pic or two just to share?
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You might be the source of your discomfort if:
1. You're not sitting up straight
2. Your board is at a level that doesn't allow your elbows to form a 90deg angle
3. You're resting your palms on the desk or a wrist rest whilst typing
4. You didn't fold the keyboard feet out
I'm not sure what you're basing this on. In my book, anyone who folds out the feet is doing it wrong and I can't imagine I will ever be convinced otherwise. Inclined keyboards are for hunt-and-peck typists.
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OK...
I follow everything technical in the thread, and I don't conform to the Majestouch nun form when typing, but from this thread I'm not following the problem you're all trying to solve. Pain from a Filco spacebar? never felt any.
I feel that my Realforce spacebar might feel a little strange, but certainly not painful. Perhaps, if anything, it feelw *less* edgey than others to me. As I said, unless the previous owner flipped it around I'm not following...
RiGS, can you provide an "after" pic or two just to share?
What happens to me:
Turn your thumb so you can see the side of it. See that thin, fleshy bit that runs alongside your thumbnail, but is far enough away from the pad of the digit to not really have print lines on it?
When I hit the space bar, that little area hits the edge of the space bar at an angle. . . if I can be a little bit mathematical, it's almost a perfect tangent to the corner of the key. That is, I am hitting it right on the "point" of the corner at such an angle as to minimize the surface area my thumb makes contact with (making it "feel" sharper than if you hit it at a shallower angle and caught some of the top of the keycap, too).
After an hour or two of typing, this little bit of my thumb becomes extremely sensitive.
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seinfeld ftw
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I'm not sure what you're basing this on. In my book, anyone who folds out the feet is doing it wrong and I can't imagine I will ever be convinced otherwise. Inclined keyboards are for hunt-and-peck typists.
This stuff is all mechanics/common sense that is relatively simple to empirically verify.
1. You're not sitting up straight
This is basic to increasing productivity and competence in many activities; it's even the first lesson in speed-reading courses. The whole point is to increase oxygen to your body/brain by maximizing your lung capacity and diaphragm movement.
2. Your board is at a level that doesn't allow your elbows to form a 90deg angle
The height of your kitchen counter isn't arbitrary either. Having a work surface that allows your arms to be at a 90deg maximizes movement and leverage; and in turn comfort.
3. You're resting your palms on the desk or a wrist rest whilst typing
Unless you're Arsenio Hall, the function row is likely inaccessable and the corners of the number row are probably a bit of a reach if not at a painful angle when you're resting your palms with fingers on the home row. Some ergonomic boards are designed to rest your palms, but standard layout boards are more like pianos; keeping your palms glued to one place is going to limit your access to distant keys and will slow you down (lift/rest/repeat) if not make reaching distant keys uncomfortable. My hands are of above average size I'd gather, and stretched out measure 19cm palm to the tip of my middle finger and 24cm thumb tip to pinky tip and I still can't reach all the keys on an HHKB without lifting my palms in the air.
4. You didn't fold the keyboard feet out
The angle of the keyboard and keycaps is not for visibility of the letters; it's two-fold rather: one, to minimize the distance your hands need to move so your fingers can access different rows, and two, to provide better leverage for the angle your fingers attack the keys at. Even if you are a palm-rester, you're going to have better reach on an angled board than you will on a flat laptop (granted the same key spacing), it only takes a ruler to verify this.
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This stuff is all mechanics/common sense that is relatively simple to empirically verify.
1. You're not sitting up straight
This is basic to increasing productivity and competence many activities; it's even the first lesson in speed-reading courses. The whole point is to increase oxygen to your body/brain by maximizing your lung capacity and diaphragm movement.
2. Your board is at a level that doesn't allow your elbows to form a 90deg angle
The height of your kitchen counter isn't arbitrary either. Having a work surface that allows your arms to be at a 90deg maximizes movement and leverage; and in turn comfort.
3. You're resting your palms on the desk or a wrist rest whilst typing
Unless you're Arsenio Hall, the function row is likely inaccessable and the corners of the number row are probably a bit of a reach if not at a painful angle when you're resting your palms with fingers on the home row. Some ergonomic boards are designed to rest your palms, but standard layout boards are more like pianos; keeping your palms glued to one place is going to limit your access to distant keys and will slow you down (lift/rest/repeat) if not make reaching distant keys uncomfortable. My hands are of above average size I'd gather, and stretched out measure 19cm palm to the tip of my middle finger and 24cm thumb tip to pinky tip and I still can't reach all the keys on an HHKB without lifting my palms in the air.
4. You didn't fold the keyboard feet out
The angle of the keyboard and keycaps is not for visibility of the letters; it's two-fold rather: one, to minimize the distance your hands need to move so your fingers can access different rows, and two, to provide better leverage for the angle your fingers attack the keys at. Even if you are a palm-rester, you're going to have better reach on an angled board than you will on a flat laptop (granted the same key spacing), it only takes a ruler to verify this.
+1
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Reversed the spacebar on my hhkb. Feels a lot better on my thumb. Anyone else try it?
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What happens to me:
Turn your thumb so you can see the side of it. See that thin, fleshy bit that runs alongside your thumbnail, but is far enough away from the pad of the digit to not really have print lines on it?
When I hit the space bar, that little area hits the edge of the space bar at an angle. . . if I can be a little bit mathematical, it's almost a perfect tangent to the corner of the key. That is, I am hitting it right on the "point" of the corner at such an angle as to minimize the surface area my thumb makes contact with (making it "feel" sharper than if you hit it at a shallower angle and caught some of the top of the keycap, too).
After an hour or two of typing, this little bit of my thumb becomes extremely sensitive.
I'm sitting at my Realforce right now, and I can't seem to cause that to happen unless I push the the muscle of my thumbs down into the surface of my desk. When I do that I have some serious issues properly activating the rest of the keys. In anything I'd consider a normal-ish position the side of my thumb hits flat right on the top of the bar. I actually find the realforce spacebar to have the least "edge" of anything I'm currently working with (Keytronic, Filco, Model M). I know our thumbs are different, but my "impression" of the spacebar seems totally different than yours - weird!
Unless, of course, the previous owner flipped it.
I took a look at Ripster's photo of profiles and, again, my Realforce doesn't feel like it "looks" and doesn't seem to present that raised edge to any part of my thumb.
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RiGS, can you provide an "after" pic or two just to share?
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16272&stc=1&d=1300722443)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16273&stc=1&d=1300722443)
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RiGS pics
Oh....eww.... No, the original owner of my board did not do that. I guess some others here just have dramatically different hand positions than I'm picturing.
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This stuff is all mechanics/common sense that is relatively simple to empirically verify.
Seems like common sense to you, not to me.
minimize the distance your hands need to move so your fingers can access different rows
I'll give you that.
and two, to provide better leverage for the angle your fingers attack the keys at.
I won't give you that. You might have noticed that your fingertips tend to move on a circular path around your first finger joint. If you want to use them to press keys, it's best to keep them on that natural path. Angling the keyboard so that your fingers have to press away from your wrist is not my idea of ergonomy.
This will be less bothersome if you happen to type with your wrists in the air, but the fact that something seems convenient within the framework of your typing habits hardly makes it the "only right way to type".
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I think the main reason the people type differently is because people are all different (crazy I know). Take the kitchen counters as an example. In order for me to have my elbows at a 90 degree angle, I would need chop off my feet at the ankles. I am taller than average (though not a giant) so this whole "ergonomic" thing just doesn't apply as well to me. In any case though, the "rules" of typing were designed to provide an optimal experience for most people. If you fit closely within that average, then it probably does work best that way. I wouldn't know though because most of me is non-standard. Granted there are a few things I could adjust to get a little closer to standard in order to make the "optimal typing conditions" a little bit more present. Like most people here, however, I have found a non-optimal way of typing and doing other things that works great for me, and I don't really see a need to change them. On the other hand though... it might be nice to change things up in an attempt to get better at something I am already pretty decent at.
[/ramble]
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Those pics just show that you're really hitting your spacebar in an awkward angle to begin with. I think you should seriously consider improving your typing and your posture.
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I rest my palm on the desk, and my thumb is kinda short, so the spacebar is perfect for me this way.
I can type with 94 wpm on my topre, but as I said earlier I mainly use my keyboards for gaming.
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Spacebar the way you changed it looks just awful. It's weird to use the Spacebar that way, it's not natural and the reason why you changed it seems is only because
I rest my palm on the desk, and my thumb is kinda short
I'm with Majestouch.
I do game a LOT and the default Topre Spacebar is just perfect.
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I agree with guillaume and majestouch as well.
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LOL, I don't think I want to debate on that.
Just use your spacebar as you like...
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I will use my spacebar how I like. And I'll shine it ALL NIGHT LONG.