geekhack
geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => DIY Discussions ARCHIVE => Topic started by: keyboardlover on Fri, 25 February 2011, 20:46:38
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[H=2]About[/H]
So I saw this thread about swapping pcb-mounted cherry switches without desoldering (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12790) a little while ago and it got me REALLY curious. I thought for several days about what kind of switches I might want to replace and on what board. In the end I decided that I wanted to rip the cherry clears out of my G80-8113HRBUS-2 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=14550) and replace nearly all of the reds in one of my G80-3494's with them, and replace a few of the reds in my other G80-3494 with them (especially the space bar). So, here's basically how it went:
First I ripped out those valuable clear switches. There's gold in that ugly board!
(http://geekhack.org/album.php?albumid=114&pictureid=667)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=668)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=669)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=670)
[H=2]KL Kustom Keyboard[/H]
All Cherry mx Ergo Clears (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:17248) except for the top row and arrow keys which are still reds.
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=671)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=672)
Had to double shot that bad boy up!
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=673)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=675)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=678)
My favorite spacebar switches
Cherry MX Clear (un-modded), for Cherry boards. The Topre switch for Topre boards. All the other cherry switches I've tried in the space bar I did NOT like.
My G80-3494 Mini Review (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=14485)
My G80-8113HRBUS-2 Mini Review (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=14550)
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Nice mod! So you plan on doing anything to the G80-8113HRBUS-2?
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Thanks! I dunno...sixty recommended trying to make it tenkeyless. I think I'd rather just sell what's left for parts now though...
(Or scrap it if no one wants it). There's valuable diodes and switch bottoms in there though!
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Nice! I'm looking to do something like this once the KBC Poker comes out so I can have Reds on a mini keyboard.
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Thanks! I have a lot of red switch tops left so if you're looking for some, let me know.
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Wait... excuse me if I am asking a dumb question but...
The 3494 is PCB mounted?
I never knew!
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Hey keyboardlover,
I'm currently planning to buy Cherry MX greens within the next few weeks.
They would be EUR 0.80/switch. If you are interested, let me know.
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Hey keyboardlover,
I'm currently planning to buy Cherry MX greens within the next few weeks.
They would be EUR 0.80/switch. If you are interested, let me know.
I'm interested big time. Keep me updated, ill buy at least 2.
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Just put the order, now waiting for an answer. I will keep you updated if and when they will arrive here.
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Any update on the greens?
Here's an update on KL Kustom 1 (http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=675):
I found that 55g springs (red/brown/blue springs) with clears create my ULTIMATE switch. They feel like cherry browns but with a REAL tactile bump. I modded the homerow of KL Kustom 1 with sixty's 55g titanium springs, and the number row and Insert-PgDn switches with springs from cherry reds. The top row of the keyboard and the arrow keys are all still cherry reds. I am waiting for some cherry mx blues which are coming from Ascaii - I am planning to mod the numpad to use them instead of the clears on there now.
More updates to come!
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I'm familiar with the stems of all of those except grays... tactile, linear, clicky? if tactile, how does the bump compare to browns / clears?
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Ripster: I did, there are two grays listed... one is linear and the other is not, wondering WHICH he has :P
linear grays are of no interest, as all linear stems should be the same, ie reds, blacks, grays.
tactile grays are MUCH more intruiging since I haven't seen a good side by side of them with clear / brown stems for comparison.
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It's whatever gray they put in the spacebar of a G80-8113.
Update: the Cherry blues from Ascaii arrived today! Will update after I mod my numpad with them =)
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Could you put the red, blue, brown and sixty's spring in the red switch, and test the required amount of force needed to actuate the switch with the RipOmeter?
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I don't own a RipOmeterTM.
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I don't own a RipOmeterTM.
Then make sure to use US nickels.
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The mod is finished! The original article has been updated with new information and photos. Enjoy!
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=720)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=721)
LULz board =)
I'm liking the blues. They might be too loud to use on my homerow but they're not as loud as I thought they be. This is probably because they're PCB-mounted. The amount of pressure needed feels similar to my modded MX Clears. LOVing this keyboard!!
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Ooh, neat! So once I receive my Poker with Browns, I could use the spring from those and just swap out the stems from my Clears.
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Very nice! I like that you somewhat have a Cherry switch-try-board all built into one keyboard.
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Ooh, neat! So once I receive my Poker with Browns, I could use the spring from those and just swap out the stems from my Clears.
Exactly!
Very nice! I like that you somewhat have a Cherry switch-try-board all built into one keyboard.
Thanks, me too =)
Still not finished KL Kustom 2, but I'll get there (have yet to decide exactly what/how I'm going to change that one).
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with those colors i'm getting you confused with itlnstln these days
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We're both Italian but I'M the one who DIDN'T buy an Ocn Ducky.
Important difference.
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I love all the different switches lol.
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Thanks! TIL (Today I Learned) that my modded cherry clears feel nearly identical to my vintage cherry blues from Ascaii, with the exception of the click. So, knowing this, I had a good feeling that I would enjoy typing on the blues on the homerow of my KL Kustom 1, so I modded that one today. (Main article has been updated with explanation and photo).
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=725)
Cherry blues are cool, man!
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TIL? Is this going mainstream?
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reddit acronyms ftw.
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They really are a super cool switch. I thought I wouldn't like them before because I didn't like buckling springs or complicated alps. But they are so smooth! Just like my modded clears but with a nice "click". =)
Great switch.
I liked them so much I modded Insert>PgDn and the numpad with blues as well.
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=726)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=727)
Ripster, I already voted for Topre! Can't change my vote :(
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Actually my favorite switches are now in this order:
1. Modded cherry clears (with brown/blue/red springs)
2. Cherry blues
3. Cherry reds/Topre
Modded Cherry mx clears are seriously the bomb. If Cherry Corp. had any idea what they were doing, we'd be seeing keyboards with this kind of switch. It ROCKS.
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Don't knock 'em 'till you try 'em!
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That's why I like the modded clears better - very springy upstroke.
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I haven't tried blues yet, but I gotta agree with keyboardlover -- modded clears are great. :D Nice keyboard, KL!
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Thanks! What keyboard do you have your modded clears on?
Edit: do you have modded clears on that Filco you modded? If so, NICE!
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Yes, they're on a Filco tenkeyless. Only difference is they use black springs, so the keys are probably a touch stiffer than clears + red/blue/brown springs.
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A tenkeyless Filco with modded clears sounds like a dream come true... :D
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I was under the impression that black springs = clear springs. Did I miss something?
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Yeah. Black springs are weaker than clear springs. To show this I overlaid the force graphs. To gauge which spring is stronger, you should look at the right side of the graph (after about 2.5 mm), because the left side of the graph is not a direct comparison due to the clear switch's tactile bump. You can see clear springs bottom out at almost 100 cN, but the black springs bottom out at only 80 cN.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16455&d=1301365348)
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It's hard to compare which is heavier, blacks or clears, since the action is so much different on a tactile switch. Instead I made a point about the difference between clear stem + clear spring vs. clear stem + black spring, using the force graphs of black/black and clear/clear. As key travel increases beyond 2.5mm, the key mechanics are the same for both black/black and clear/clear, except for the difference in spring. That's why bottom-out force for that graph is useful for comparing the relative strength of these springs. Similarly, you could make the case that red, blue, and brown switches all use the same spring, since their force graphs are a close match beyond 2.5mm and all bottom out at 60 cN. This is despite the fact that blue switches have a higher activation point than reds or browns.
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According to the chart the bump in the clear switch has a peak force of 65cN, then at the end of the bump it decreases to 55cN, while the black switch is a tad lighter, but linear and activates at 60cN.
So basically you need to apply more force with the clear switch to actuate it.
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Right before the operation point clears require 65cN initial pressure, which is more than 60cN on blacks.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16466&stc=1&d=1301430426)
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TBH I have never tried mx clears before, but according to the chart I can tell that I don't like them.
It seems to me that mx clear is very similar to the 55g topre, but it actuates at the end of the bump, and then it takes much more force to buttom out.
Also the plastic slider in the mx clears will lose its tactility over time.
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They would be too heavy for me, but the extra tactility would be nice with a lighter spring. I don't know if the grey switch in the MX SPOS is similar to the clears, but the difference in tactility is definitely noticeable. It might just need to be used more, but the grey stem kinda hangs a bit with a brown spring in it.
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Even with the lighter spring they should feel quite similar to the 55g topre.
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Try a switch before you knock it. Charts and other peoples' opinions only count for so much. Modded clears KICK ASS.
And no, they feel nothing like 55g topre. If anything, they feel like browns with a big ol' bump. Nice and smooth.
Mmmmm smooooooth.
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I completely agree with keyboardlover. All that matters is how the keys feel, and modded clears feel fantastic. Of course everyone has their own preferences. :)
Something else I noticed and found surprising is the springs are actually different lengths. This is in addition to their different thicknesses and/or number of coils. Here's a pic of springs, from left to right (and increasing stiffness :), brown, black, clear:
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Yup...the longer ones are more springy which is very noticeable when the key travels up after activation and/or bottoming out.
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Well how do ya do, clear springs are different from blacks. Very helpful info.
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It's definitely a less extreme difference than THAT.
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Thanks. I made it using graphs from the Cherry switches wiki page (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards) to help explain a modded Filco (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:16351).
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The difference between clear and black springs is significant, but not obvious. I measured all the spring types I had a while ago, over the range of 6 to 10mm compression (since that's roughly the range that is used in the switch).
The stiffness of a spring is measured in cN/mm, which is the slope of each plot. The length of a spring is chosen to give the right amount of force at 10mm compression, so determines where the plot intersects the right hand side of the graph. It makes sense to reduce the force at the top of the stroke for a tactile switch, to compensate for the increased force of the tactile bump.
In practice, even springs of the same type vary a lot - the difference between the two clear springs I measured was greater than the difference between the average of the clears and the average of the blacks!
What is obvious is that the differences between clear, black and green springs are fairly small in the grand scheme of things...
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12266&d=1282877822)
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Interesting. The reason black springs feel lighter than clear springs when paired with clear stems then may be due to the higher compressive strength of the clear spring in the 6.5-7.5 mm range, where the tactile "bump" is. The black and clear springs are much more similar than I would have anticipated, but it makes sense. Going from clear spring to black spring is a fine (but noticeable) adjustment, and going from clear spring to brown spring is definitely more pronounced. It's also surprising how much variance you found between springs of the same type, though clearly it would help to have more than 2 samples for each. For instance, the black springs appear to be very consistent. Thanks for sharing the data!
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... in the 6.5-7.5 mm range, where the tactile "bump" is.
The bump is at the other end, since the X-axis on my graph is the length of the spring, not travel. The black spring will actually be giving more force in the area of the bump - this might help make the bump feel smoother, since the bump is contributing slightly less of the total force by percentage. And after the bump, the black spring is lighter, which will accentuate the bump and perhaps also make the lower part of the travel less spongy feeling.
... it would help to have more than 2 samples for each.
I know, but it's quite time consuming to do!