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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: obj-c on Tue, 01 March 2011, 18:43:10

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Tue, 01 March 2011, 18:43:10

I've been recently debating on two mechanical keyboards the IBM model M and the Rosewill rk-9000 which uses blue cherry switches. I need help choosing one.

The rk-9000
What I like:
Relatively Compact
Nice Clicky Sound
Looks really good
Black

What I dont like:
Costs more than the model m
Costs alot

Model M
What I like:
Super awesome Hacker look
Clickyness
The epicness of owning one.

What I don't like:
Worried about the sound, don't want to wake up others in my house
Its huge
besides having that hacker look, its pretty ugly.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 01 March 2011, 18:44:10

Welcome to GeekHack! Regarding the emails, did you check your spam filter?

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Tue, 01 March 2011, 18:53:23

oh woops, this was my post on overclock.net, didn't get my activation email until 3 days later

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 01 March 2011, 19:11:04

Hello again (http://www.overclock.net/12562863-post2.html)

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Tue, 01 March 2011, 22:43:31

Does anyone know how much the leopold keyboards are going to cost on elite keyboards?
Is there anything else in the under $90 range worth considering. The main worry i have with the model m is that is way too large.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Tue, 01 March 2011, 23:06:48

ripster, you think I should get buckling springs or blue cherries? I mainly type papers for school and do alot of coding.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 01 March 2011, 23:11:53

I vastly prefer buckling spring to any cherry switch. I also write a lot and write absurd amounts of code.

Great part of the buckling spring keyboards: if you bolt mod them, you can change the physical layout, then use OS level key remapping to change the logical layout, and get the HHKB key layout, but with buckling springs. See the link in my sig for details.

I've actually done this to a half dozen or so keyboards, and had one done for me, but also with new springs. If you write a lot of code, especially if you use emacs or vi, the UNIX/HHKB layout is hard to beat.

Can't do any of that with a cherry based keyboard.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: manfaux on Tue, 01 March 2011, 23:20:17

Quote from: theferenc;303239

I vastly prefer buckling spring to any cherry switch. I also write a lot and write absurd amounts of code.

Great part of the buckling spring keyboards: if you bolt mod them, you can change the physical layout, then use OS level key remapping to change the logical layout, and get the HHKB key layout, but with buckling springs. See the link in my sig for details.

I've actually done this to a half dozen or so keyboards, and had one done for me, but also with new springs. If you write a lot of code, especially if you use emacs or vi, the UNIX/HHKB layout is hard to beat.

Can't do any of that with a cherry based keyboard.

lol what's so special about the HHKB layout besides the CTRL position? that remap can be done on any keyboard.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Tue, 01 March 2011, 23:31:50

this is the current board im using, can any one guesstimate how big the model m is compared to this?(http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/172/387/383/685Y.jpg)

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: manfaux on Tue, 01 March 2011, 23:49:56

Quote from: obj-c;303243

this is the current board im using, can any one guesstimate how big the model m is compared to this?

Show Image

(http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/172/387/383/685Y.jpg)

not too big.

M space saver vs. Filco tenkeyless

the M is not as big as you might think it is.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4143/4761114210_8d575d4694_b.jpg)

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: laden3 on Wed, 02 March 2011, 00:02:31

Quote from: obj-c;303243

this is the current board im using, can any one guesstimate how big the model m is compared to this?

Show Image

(http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/172/387/383/685Y.jpg)

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Keyboard+Reference

try the wiki, it's helpful

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 02 March 2011, 06:01:36

The Unicomp Spacesaver is relatively average sized for a keyboard

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/zerogravitas/kbds.jpg)

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 02 March 2011, 09:27:18

Quote from: manfaux;303242

lol what's so special about the HHKB layout besides the CTRL position? that remap can be done on any keyboard.

See the link in my sig for how many keys actually need to be remapped. Plus, the "normal" backspace key, which is 2 keys wide, is actually 2 physical keys on the HHKB, with backspace a row below where backslash usually is.

It requires actual physical changes to an ANSI keyboard to get the UNIX/HHKB layout.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: kill will on Wed, 02 March 2011, 10:13:17

Charlie sheen says epic

The word epic is dead

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Wed, 02 March 2011, 16:53:47

Well, it sounds like it is probably a "subjective" question but I too am wondering what others think of MX Blue vs Buckling Springs?  I like the Unicomp Customizer/Space Saver 104 for it's layout and springs but am considering MX Blues for a comparison.
Does anyone have a user's opinion?
Thanks,
Engine

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: woody on Wed, 02 March 2011, 17:26:05

Quote from: Engine;303671

what others think of MX Blue vs Buckling Springs?

BS are fun, but too stiff for me. MX blues are my preference.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 02 March 2011, 18:13:40

Unicomp's keyboards are about 65g. Blue Cherries are 60g at their peak force. Not a huge difference.

Older Model Ms can be quite stiff.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: BababooeyHTJ on Wed, 02 March 2011, 18:22:55

I'm really fond of buckling springs. I find them much more comfortable to type on than blue cherrys. To be honest I don't like MX blues at all but some people seem to love them, I don't see why. So I guess that it's all personal preference.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Wed, 02 March 2011, 18:28:15

Ordered a 1988 ibm model m, i hope i like it!

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 02 March 2011, 19:19:05

Excellent choice! You really can't go wrong with a Model M. And they make you a better coder, too.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: cgoldberg on Wed, 02 March 2011, 19:50:00

totally subjective..

I own BS and Cherry MX Blue and prefer the blues.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Wed, 02 March 2011, 19:56:34

Quote from: theferenc;303807

Excellent choice! You really can't go wrong with a Model M. And they make you a better coder, too.

I just like the way the Customizer feels and it's a lot nicer to my achey wrists vs the rotten Compaq rubber dome I have.
That said, what is it about the IBM/Unicomp you like for "coding"?
I've read where it can help w/accuracy adn speed.
My use for the keyboard is writing/coding but am new to both and need a nice kb for the before-said reasons.
Thanks,
Engine

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 02 March 2011, 19:59:49

Oh, that part about a better coder was mostly a joke. I find the sound of the keyboard helps me focus on what I'm doing, but that doesn't work for everyone.

But it's a running joke in my office, as I managed to outfit most of my office mates with them. Admittedly, they are all UNIX layout, which I would argue can make you a more efficient coder, if you use emacs or vi.

Also, it's mostly the old UNIX beards that use them. By a logical fallacy, if you use one, you are an old UNIX beard. Hence a better coder. You know, all pigs are green. I'm green, so I must be a pig.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 02 March 2011, 20:02:00

Quote from: ripster;303844

Buckling Springs sure aren't doing well in this years poll.  Less than 1 out of 5 people call it their favorite switch. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11952)  A new low in these polls.

Considering it is the third most popular, and with the recent influx of gamers we've had who need the latest and greatest with 37 KRO, I'd say it's actually doing fairly well.

Besides, even the most popular is the switch of choice of less than 1 in 4 people.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Wed, 02 March 2011, 20:13:49

Isn't the "spacing", "size" and such attributes different w/the Customizer vs the other mechanicals out there?  I can only compare the Customizer w/the rubber dome I have but it seems the physical layout/shape/size of the Unicomp key is different and just nicer to work with.  Maybe a "fat finger" choice?  Are there other mechanical kb's out there that compare accordingly?

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: obj-c on Wed, 02 March 2011, 21:18:50

ibm model m looks like a hackers keyboard

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 02 March 2011, 22:25:39

Quote from: obj-c;303902

ibm model m looks like a hackers keyboard

Of course. Why do you think it makes you a better coder?

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: woody on Thu, 03 March 2011, 05:03:32

Quote from: ch_123;303759

Unicomp's keyboards are about 65g. Blue Cherries are 60g at their peak force. Not a huge difference.

The real comparison is the integral work done by your finger until you command your muscles to stop, not just the peak force at some point.

Lacking any equipment to measure this, pure subjectively from the standpoint of my light touch, the BS is stiffer. I was using the Unicomp SpaceSaver for a week and my wrists developed sore pain, so it's now in the cupboard. Not that I definitely pinpoint it as a cause, being winter and such, but still.

I also got the funny feeling BS encourages the "peck" style - hitting harder vertically. Whilst I just glide my finger cushions and conserve as much energy as possible.

Anyway, one can't know what's best for him/her without trying.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Thu, 03 March 2011, 22:27:40

Cherry rep told me that the MX "BLUE" would most closely resemble the Model M tactility.
Sound right?
The other thing is, is the Customizer a unique design as far as key size/shape/spacing, etc?  I like the feel of the Unicomp but of I'm comparing it with the only kb I've used for the last 8 yrs(Compaq rubber dome).
If it is, then it's going to be a tough sell for me to look at other kbs for that "ergo" reason.  It seems to be a perfect "fat finger" kb.  Your thoughts?

Thanks,
Engine

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: bettablue on Thu, 03 March 2011, 23:40:08

Quote from: ripster;303844

Buckling Springs sure aren't doing well in this years poll.  Less than 1 out of 5 people call it their favorite switch. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11952)  A new low in these polls.

Oh, well.  If that's the case, then there will more model Ms for me.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: kinkng on Fri, 04 March 2011, 08:31:16

I recently bought a Noppoo mini choc and a filco tenkeyless (both with Cherry blue switches). I do like the feel of the blues but I am making a lot more typing mistakes (hitting adjacent keys) than I did on the Model Ms. I can also type faster on the model m. It may be that I have not adjusted to the blues yet after years of using model Ms. I'm not sure, but it looks like the spacing between the keys on the Model M may be larger than on my new keyboards, hence the reason for me hitting the adjacent keys by mistake.

I plan to use the Filco at work so hopefully in a few days, I will be more comfortable with it.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 04 March 2011, 16:50:54

Quote from: woody;304054

The real comparison is the integral work done by your finger until you command your muscles to stop, not just the peak force at some point.

Indeed. Compared to a '93 M, the blues definitely are a lot lighter. They actuate a little higher, too.

Quote

I was using the Unicomp SpaceSaver for a week and my wrists developed sore pain, so it's now in the cupboard. Not that I definitely pinpoint it as a cause, being winter and such, but still.

Well, my recent experience was similar. Too bad, since I actually love that board (in fact, I used it nonstop for like 7 years) and BS used to rank at the very top for me, only competing with blues (which were about the equal once equipped with some doubleshots).

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: woody on Fri, 04 March 2011, 17:09:25

Comrade keyb_gr, your observation that MX blues activate sooner further adds to the perceived "lightness" compared to BS. But that's only for those who type gently and utilize the auditory feedback. Glad that we're on the same boat.

I'd really like to use the BS on a daily basis, but the pain which I had when bending my wrists inward (close to 90 degrees) was not a joke at all. All the countless hours of button mashing over the years has a price ...

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Sat, 05 March 2011, 00:15:08

It may be that I was actually trying to type "correctly" when I home tested the Customizer last month but my wrists felt better, though not great.  The pain is still there but more like a dull pain vs sharp pain with burning and yes, my forearms would feel pumped up like I went to the gym.  Not so with the Customizer.  I did however try my rubber dome again and tried to type correctly but still the cramping/pain returned.
I don't know what extended typing would do on the BS.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Sat, 05 March 2011, 00:26:31

Quote from: kinkng;304849

I recently bought a Noppoo mini choc and a filco tenkeyless (both with Cherry blue switches). I do like the feel of the blues but I am making a lot more typing mistakes (hitting adjacent keys) than I did on the Model Ms. I can also type faster on the model m. It may be that I have not adjusted to the blues yet after years of using model Ms. I'm not sure, but it looks like the spacing between the keys on the Model M may be larger than on my new keyboards, hence the reason for me hitting the adjacent keys by mistake.

I plan to use the Filco at work so hopefully in a few days, I will be more comfortable with it.

Would it be a fair statement to assume that the Customizer is the only design like it anywhere?  I mean the keys spacing and size, etc?  This design is great for me so far.  I call it a "fat finger" delight.  I'm better than a two finger typist but not a transcriptionist, so I probably have less demands for a kb but this seems to allow my hands/fingers to kind of spread out naturally vs keeping a tight form to the keys.  I don't know.  I just feel like my hands can relax a bit more than usual. Maybe that's all in my head.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Sat, 05 March 2011, 10:30:54

Maybe it's all in my head but it seems that the Unicomp is easier to  use for me.  Just more comfortable.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 05 March 2011, 10:33:49

That's because buckling spring keyboards are the best?

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Sat, 05 March 2011, 10:36:02

I'm sure it's a "real" reason but yes, I agree with you, as I had increasing wrist pain w/my old rubber dome over the years but a few seconds on the Unicomp proved a relief of sorts.  Don't know but LIke it.  
Ironically, I think its the actuation mechanizm that helps.  I was trying to type by the feedback and not the pronesness to "push" the key to death(bottom out) to actuate = less pressure on my hands?  Hmm.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 05 March 2011, 17:34:35

Quote from: woody;305176

Comrade keyb_gr, your observation that MX blues activate sooner further adds to the perceived "lightness" compared to BS. But that's only for those who type gently and utilize the auditory feedback. Glad that we're on the same boat.

Well, I bottom out quite regularly, and blues still are lighter.

The "Eur-o-meter" claims about 60 g of peak force for blues, while the M seems to require a bit over 70 g with a few notable exceptions (the sloppy Return barely even needs 65 g, and everything to the right of N/M feels slightly lighter, too - I suspect a case of rivetitis).

Last night I was wondering how I survived all the years on BS - after all I used this board daily from about 2001/2002 well into 2009 or 2010 with no significant strain issues.
Turns out the answer might be quite simple - I used to have a problem with my keyboard position until I got the monitor arm (in '09). Due to my low viewing distance (about 30 cm / 1' or less) the monitor foot would force the keyboard towards the front edge of the desk (up to about 5 cm), resulting in a hunched sitting posture and particularly arms angled inward quite a bit.
Moving across the keyboard with the left hand then mainly requires back and forth movements, not as much sideways. You can get along without a lot of wrist-bending, too. Furthermore you have greater force available for "pecking". Not sure of shoulder / back implications though.

Here's an old pic from back in '03 illustrating how it used to be:
(http://stephan.win31.de/pic_ibmk.jpg)

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: Engine on Sat, 05 March 2011, 17:50:58

I do believe that the total ergonomic scene does include posture and where/how the arms/hands rest and such...The keyboard is only part of it but integral I think.

Title: Blue Cherry (rx-9000) vs buckling spring (model m)
Post by: woody on Sun, 06 March 2011, 07:16:29

Yes, it is probably complicated. I have problems with the wrist joints, and I think the following helped me reduce them:
- adjustable chair
- wrist rest, so the wrist joint is almost straight
- lighter keys
- slower typing

EDIT: also
- desk has inclined edge where I place my elbows, so forearms and wrists make almost straight line (with the help of the wrist rest) that kinda continues on the keyboard profile