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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Aarto on Fri, 04 March 2011, 10:05:34

Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Aarto on Fri, 04 March 2011, 10:05:34: Looking for my ideal keyboard, I surfed onto this page: http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitches/

and thought that this would be the ideal switch for me.

I am looking for a keyboard with very low activation force, precise feel, short stroke length, and little (or no) auditory and tactile feedback. The rest of the keyboard can be normal :)

Does anyone have any suggestions for something that approximates this?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: sixty on Fri, 04 March 2011, 10:07:43: Closest you can get in a commercially available keyboard would be Cherry MX reds. They activate at around 40~45g.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: reaper on Fri, 04 March 2011, 10:09:30: Well, since this is your first post... welcome to GeekHack! =D

Edit: ah crap, ripster beat me to it. lol
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: BucklingSpring on Fri, 04 March 2011, 10:24:38: Quote from: ripster;304904
Actually the lightest keyboard on the planet is the Datahand.[/URL]

Anyone here using one of those?
I didn't know this device. At first I told myself WTF? Pretty cool design.

DataHand (http://www.datahand.com)
(http://www.datahand.com/images/Resize%20of%20DEKonLap72rgb.jpg)

Price tag $1000 Holly molly
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Aarto on Fri, 04 March 2011, 10:54:54: Thanks for the welcome guys, and for the suggestions.

I knew about the datahand from that website I linked to (it was also linked there).

I am looking for something more along the lines of a traditional keyboard that approximates the data hand, preferably under $150 US. I will definitely look into the Cherry reds.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: db_Iodine on Fri, 04 March 2011, 11:27:48: That all 30g Realforce is just taking it a bit too far. That's just a a personal opinion though, and someone with girlie hands might find the ultra low force enjoyable.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: lootbag on Fri, 04 March 2011, 11:29:12: If you find the MX Reds a little out of budget, the MX Browns are quite light as well, based on my experience.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: digitalleftovers on Fri, 04 March 2011, 11:42:48: Quote from: ripster;304935
There are a few select leet people on the planet that use these.

This one here is named Webwit.
Show Image
(http://www.shareware-beach.com/photos/J1302764.jpg)

Is that seriously webwit? What would have driven him to use his data hands that day? He owns every other split mech board on the planet. I want to see him type on the one with wing mirrors...
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: BucklingSpring on Fri, 04 March 2011, 11:44:23: +1 for the MX Red.
45cN, short throw, linear, available new.

Show us you hands
(http://www.leviward.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/03-10-09-03.jpg)

Side question, does this forum has advanced feature to custom fit the picture size? I mean it shrinks them when they are too large but can we chose the size of the shown picture?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: BucklingSpring on Fri, 04 March 2011, 11:51:01: Quote from: ripster;304904
First step is dress like John Lennon

I just watched the suggested OP video. LoL

High IQ Chubaka
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/2258925527_afdce0fa51.jpg)
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: reaper on Fri, 04 March 2011, 12:59:30: Quote from: ripster;304907
You must be a slow typist.

Either that or I'm just too damn old. =P

Btw, this thread made me lol.
Title: revised question
Post by: Aarto on Fri, 04 March 2011, 14:39:26: Since my original posting I found this thread discussing something similar:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5466&page=2

The net recommendation was the same: cherry red or brown and also compaq mx11800

Does anyone else have experience with the compaq mx11800?
Are there cheaper alternatives with even less force required than the Topre 30g?

I am willing to look at scissors switches or anything else that might give low activation force and short stroke.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: woody on Fri, 04 March 2011, 15:02:30: Quote from: Aarto;305071
I am willing to look at scissors switches or anything else that might give low activation force and short stroke.

For short stroke try Cherry ML. Then lube them and tell us how it feels.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Evil_Spork on Fri, 04 March 2011, 23:44:50: Quote from: woody;305082
For short stroke try Cherry ML. Then lube them and tell us how it feels.
What board uses Cherry ML switches?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: manfaux on Fri, 04 March 2011, 23:48:24: Quote from: Evil_Spork;305353
What board uses Cherry ML switches?

G81 4xxx series.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 05 March 2011, 00:03:01: Don't the G84s, as well?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: pm_ on Sat, 05 March 2011, 03:22:31: Why do you want a short stroke?

I'd think that would substantially increase the chances of bottoming out, and if you have sensitive hands that constant impact would be a problem...
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: woody on Sat, 05 March 2011, 05:30:39: Quote from: Evil_Spork;305353
What board uses Cherry ML switches?

G84 family.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Ascaii on Sat, 05 March 2011, 07:37:22: Quote from: manfaux;305355
G81 4xxx series.

that would be MY...DONT get one of these...icky membranes
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Surly73 on Sat, 05 March 2011, 08:48:19: I have a board with ML switches (an ML4100) and it is not what I would call low actuation force. Not sure if there are multiple lineups of ML just like MX...
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 05 March 2011, 09:18:31: But you are required to "bottom out" to register a key press on that awful thing.
Title: bottoming out is my tactile feedback
Post by: Aarto on Sat, 05 March 2011, 10:15:47: Bottoming out is the only feedback my hands understand at this point. I suppose I could teach them to feel a bump or hear a click and then stop, but that would be like learning how to walk all over again.

Ideally the bottoming out would be cushioned (now provided by cat furr in my laptop keyboard that's migrated there from previous shedding seasons). So...what I'm looking for is a keyboard like the one I have on my laptop, but with even less force required to depress the keys, and the actuation should/could take place at the point of bottoming out.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: woody on Sat, 05 March 2011, 11:54:36: Quote from: Surly73;305474
I have a board with ML switches (an ML4100) and it is not what I would call low actuation force. Not sure if there are multiple lineups of ML just like MX...

Only one type of MLs, AFAIK.

I want to hear from someone who has lubed them good - what's the outcome?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Surly73 on Sat, 05 March 2011, 12:30:26: Quote from: woody;305580
Only one type of MLs, AFAIK.

I want to hear from someone who has lubed them good - what's the outcome?

I guess I could try this. I have multiple ML4100s and could easily lube a couple of keys. I will state, though, that the resistance I feel seems like it's just the springs. It's all "springy" feeling, not like a dragging. I don't know that lube would do anything except ADD drag in my case.

I suppose there's probably a wiki article here all about taking apart MLs and lubing them....
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: woody on Sat, 05 March 2011, 14:15:26: MLs are much better in tactility compared to all laptop keyboards I've used.

BTW, wasn't diNovo Edge scissor as well? It is the one that made me buy G84-4100 in desperation even if the integrated touchpad was very handy.

But, of course, everyone seeks different things in a keyboard.
Title: Key weight for the HHKB killer?
Post by: Aarto on Sat, 05 March 2011, 18:41:27: Ripster,

How much weight is that resting on the key, and is that the force required to depress it? Do all keys require the same force? Do you have any personal experience with that keyboard?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Surly73 on Sat, 05 March 2011, 19:46:07: Quote from: woody;305656
MLs are much better in tactility compared to all laptop keyboards I've used.

Can you expand on what you mean? I've spent a bunch of time on MLs and while I like certain characteristics of them, tactility was never one of them. The only tactile feedback I feel is bottoming out...loudly. I find most scissor switch keyboards have a great amount more tactile "pop" in the stroke than an ML.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: woody on Sun, 06 March 2011, 05:48:51: Quote from: Surly73;305927
Can you expand on what you mean? I've spent a bunch of time on MLs and while I like certain characteristics of them, tactility was never one of them. The only tactile feedback I feel is bottoming out...loudly. I find most scissor switch keyboards have a great amount more tactile "pop" in the stroke than an ML.

That might depend on your typing style and servo feedback.

According to Cherry, they are tactile:
(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/ml_force.gif)

I, for one, stopped making mistakes when switched to MLs. And the other necessary part for a good switch - I can "feel" without looking at the monitor when I've made a mistake (like too light a key press), so I can start correcting with BackSpace (and I even know how many characters to delete) during the time it takes to process the visual information.

That was never possible with rubber domes with or without scissors. Wrong force curve, wrong actuation position == no feedback.

One thing I am not sure is how MLs age - do they become more frictiony, sticky, linear or whatever. I used a brand new G84-4100 for about half a year. This is why I am interested in the lubing outcome.

Last, I am not ML fanboi - they are just OK switches which I can do with. I recommended them in this thread because of their short-stroke.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Surly73 on Sun, 06 March 2011, 06:43:56: Quote from: woody;306083
That might depend on your typing style and servo feedback.

Thanks for clarifying. My ML4100s are second-hand and were in commercial use. That being said, they don't look totally destroyed by any stretch. They both feel fairly identical. I was often using them for system builds or a server keyboard or whatever because they take up so little bench space and I seemed a little faster and more accurate on them to a certain extent. Based on feel, racket and layout, I've never considered them as a desktop replacement board.

Are there any kind of instructions/wiki that I should follow for my Cherry ML "lube" experiment? Google searches fr some terms limited to geekhack didn't result in any hits on Cherry ML lubrication procedures.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: woody on Sun, 06 March 2011, 07:07:16: It's a world of compromises, and ML and G84-4100 are definitely not on the low end of the spectrum.

No, I don't remember anyone mentioning he has done already ML lubing (that's why I was suggesting it), so you'd have to go ad lib and destroy a switch or two to see how they're made and if there's significant plastic friction that might use some PTFE(?) lubricant.

There was a Korean guy on the Deskthority.net forum who had made an ML custom keyboard, so he might be in the ML know.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: Aarto on Sun, 06 March 2011, 12:20:40: "Point is, there are plenty of Desktop Scissor switches out there too you should try out if your goal is something light."

What about the HP Elite Wireless Keyboard. It seems to have gotten decent reviews elsewhere. Any idea on the lightness of the keys?
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: spolia optima on Sun, 06 March 2011, 12:29:07: Finally, a noob who knows what she wants right off the bat.
Yes, light switches ARE the only path to true typing bliss.

Aarto: I strongly suggest finding a used MX11800 on ebay. They're almost as light as reds and can be had for under 50 bucks.
Title: Looking for Low-activation force keyboard
Post by: spolia optima on Sun, 06 March 2011, 12:30:52: If the MX11800 strikes your fancy, and you feel like spending a bit more, buy a nice Leopold with reds. Or a Realforce. Bang. Boom. Done.