geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Engine on Sat, 05 March 2011, 13:26:19
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I've scoured the EK website and emailed them about the difference between the two.
I mean except for the obvious, like the U-UW is $30 cheaper and comes with some tools, including a key puller.
Obviously, if there are no other differences, then I'm going to consider buying the U-UW but before I pull the trigger, I'd like to know if there's anything I'm mssing? Why sell what apparently looks like the same keyboard for less and with tools and a different model number/name if there's nothing else to differentiate?
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Go for the 103U.
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Go for the 103U.
Shut up!
Go for the 103U-UW as there is NO difference between the 2 whatsoever!
Why sell what apparently looks like the same keyboard for less and with tools and a different model number/name if there's nothing else to differentiate?
They are "old stock" and majestouch has a bunch of them leftover, so now he's letting them go at a really good value. That's the only reason why. There is absolutely no difference in features or quality.
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Well, that's what it seemed like and why it was boggling to me. I was wondering "where's the gotcha" if I go w/the cheaper one. I would assume that the U-UW came with the "extras" as a complete pkg and now basically discontiniued as such and now he just has the "new" stripped version that apparently Topre is willing to offer him? I'm still wondering why he just doesn't offer it at same pricing, unless it was always at the price and now the price went up this year begining w/the new shipments?
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There really is no "gotcha"; as I said they're "old stock". It's basically like, he got a shipment of them like a year ago or 2 ago (or something), but since then he's gotten a new shipment. The old shipment he's now offering at a discount with some extras. That's all!
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I guess Topre simply discontinued that model but it's really just the same board shipped as a pkg and now discontinued. Ok thanks. I don't really understand the market.
Oh and Ripster, some of your pics are the bacon on the salad.
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I don't really understand the market.
Neither do I ;)
These Asian companies operate very differently from American companies.
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I have some understanding of the differences between the Topre and the Unicomp but can someone who knows the "experience" difference between the Topre and Unicomp chime in?
So far, I only know that the Topre has a "hybrid" of sorts in their switch using the BS, RD and Capacitive. Oh, and the fact that Topre has the differing key wieght for ergo benifit. Plus the Topre is a thousand times better looking but all in all, the user's experience?
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Having used both, I prefer the Topre since it's much quieter and also much lighter. Not as tactile, which some complain about, but there are tradeoffs with every board and switch. If there wasn't, we'd all have the same keyboard! :D
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The Unicomp is a much heavier keyboard, in terms of the keys. It also feels more "crisp" at each key press.
The Topre feels much smoother, but definitely lacks in the tactility department, as well as in the auditory feedback department.
I love them both, and I switch back and forth between them with no difficulty. There are times when the Topre is better, and times when the Unicomp is better. A lot of it is mood, but there are also external factors, such as noise. The Topre is basically silent, compared to the Unicomp.
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I have some understanding of the differences between the Topre and the Unicomp but can someone who knows the "experience" difference between the Topre and Unicomp chime in?
So far, I only know that the Topre has a "hybrid" of sorts in their switch using the BS, RD and Capacitive. Oh, and the fact that Topre has the differing key wieght for ergo benifit. Plus the Topre is a thousand times better looking but all in all, the user's experience?
I wouldn't say that the buckling spring is in any way related to the Topre, or vice-versa. For one, the spring in the Topre doesn't buckle!
That said, the original buckling spring patent by IBM had a mechanism where there was a capacitive sensor on the side of the barrel which was acutated when the buckling spring buckled in its direction, which is somewhat similar to the basic principle on which the Topre operates. IBM never made any keyboards that used that mechanism though.
(http://deskthority.net/wiki/images/1/11/Origbuck2.jpg)
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I did. That's how I know the basics of the Topre and that it's spring "depresses" vs "buckles". I also know that the Topre is quieter and has little tactility but was wondering literally what the user's eperience was is all. I agree that they are opposite "polar" from each other but what exactly is the experience of the Topre?
I guess that should be the question.
I know the Customizer though, since I have one in the house.
I guess as I write this, I realize that I'll probably get one for my wife anyway and I can test hers but I'm waiting to learn just a bit more before I commit.
I'm on my way to keyboard addiction...
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They might well be polar opposites, but they are the switches I find it easiest to switch back and forth between.
Virtually 0 transition time to go from my customizer to my hhkb.
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Doesn't the capacitive nature of the Topre switch make it fundamentally different from a rubber dome?
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And don't forget the tactile bump!
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I'm only reading good on the Topre and received more than one recommendation to get this for my wife/mother.
What attracts me to it for me is the possible ergonomics of it for my wrists, as it's varying weight. Does anyone think this could be a good choice for me on "comfort"?
Per Ripster's last post:
Ok, yet another benifit..No need to bottom out. Good. I think that may be contributing to my achey hands with my current rubber dome and may explain why the Customizer felt better for me.
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Ok, yet another benifit..No need to bottom out. Good. I think that may be contributing to my achey hands with my current rubber dome and may explain why the Customizer felt better for me.
You'd still be bottoming out, even if it does register before that point.
And comparing BS and Topre is just silly. Refined rubber dome is a good approximation.
One way to know - spend the dough and test yourself on the placebo effect. It's OK for typing, I guess.
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It's possible to not bottom out on Topres. Especially for fast touch typists.
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I'm feeling strongly in getting one for my Wife and letting her and I test it. I guess in the long run you are right and I just have to try it but it's helped a lot to get all this feedback. It's helped me understand some things about this board, thus helping my decision.
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I see that the Topre comes in 55g or variable key weight. I'm assuming the person looking for something more ergonomic would go for the variable but who gets the "55g"?
Please direct/correct.
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Gamers tend to chose uniform weighted and stiffer keyboards.
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So, say for a writer, it would be advisable to get the variable and especially if he gets sore wrists/hands?(ME)
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That makes sense to me. The all 55g would be a little stiff for a writer. Fun to pound on when you're angry tho :D
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Ok. Would you believe that the "tenkeyles" version may be more ergo? I don't need a ten key pad but they're nice for doing bills each month. I saw on youtube by phototristan that the mouse can be closer to you if you don't have a ten keypad on your kb and that's better ergonomically?
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From what I know, the ergo stuff tends to be a bit different for different people. It's hard to say without knowing what your exact needs/problems are. I think by your logic, it certainly could be more ergo, since your arms will rest more straight whilst typing and using the mouse at the same time.
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Tenkeyless would be more comfortable. Have you noticed how phototristan bashed the black Realforce?
Also note there is a poll on Realforce colour. Make sure to check that out.
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Yea, except don't vote white/gold on black, or else RiGS will throw a hissy fit.
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I've never seen one in person but have seen the black version w/grey print on the keys and it's pretty light but other than that, do you suppose the keys will take a long time to "rub out"? I saw that PT didn't like the light keys after a while and switched to white.
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It would take a very long time. They are dye-sublimated keys and very well made.
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The black plastic would noticeably wear down very quickly!
This is one of the major point for getting the white one.
I recommend you to check out this post.
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=305753&postcount=40 (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=305753&postcount=40)
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KL,
Good because my Wife would prefer the keyboard in black. I'm on the road to surprizing her with the 103 UB.
As for myself, I have to make up my mind if I want to go with the 103 U or U-UW. My wife's will be the first to come into the household though and I can test it then. I like the Unicomp but the Topre looks promising too. Like you, I may very well end up a proud owner of both. Besides, I'm seeing how the kb bug does bite here. =)
EDIT:
RIGS,
I'll check out that thread, thanks.
KL,
You own the Topre right? The UB yes?
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The black doesn't get shiny particularly quickly. And with proper lighting, you can see the keys just fine.
RiGS I think has an issue with the black, but I have had no problem with my HHKB, which supposedly has lower quality keys anyway. Use it daily for coding for the past 5 months or so, no shine, no wear.
Supposedly, the Realforce keys are even better, for what that's worth.
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That makes sense to me. The all 55g would be a little stiff for a writer. Fun to pound on when you're angry tho :D
But then writers could have never survived when 70g+ BS keyboards is all there was. This site is full of model M lovers and I bet some of them do some writing.
I think that gamers who want uniformity or heavier typers likely opt for the 55g. I'd probably be perfectly comfortable with a 55g based on my touch but if/when I buy a Topre I'm going to go for the variable experience and see how I adapt. I don't "want" a heavy touch, that's just what I've developed. Using a model M at the office probably isn't doing anything to change that. :)
I do wish there was another option for Realforce black. I'd like a black keyboard at home, but lighting is usually low key. Without seeing one in person I don't know if it would look like a blank keyboard or not. In some photos it's easy to see, in others the keys look blank. It would be nice if there was a higher contrast black option of some sort with decent quality which didn't require you to buy a keyboard and then pull all those nice caps off an replace them with something third party. I get that the "almost blank" thing is "cool", but wouldn't a double-shot option be nice too? Of course then the price would be $3xx... :(
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I never said he wouldn't survive. I just think the overall writing experience would be better.
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Keys are identical between RealForce and Topre.
Which makes sense, since Topre makes the Realforce line. I was comparing the Happy Hacking Keyboard, made by PFU, to the Realforce line, made by Topre.
And lots of folks here claim the keys on the Realforce are higher quality. I didn't say they were, but that's the claim that is often made by people with both.
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I've heard that the entire Realforce board is of higher quality, in comparison to the HHKB. But yea, the keys are the same.
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Fair enough. I don't own both, so can't compare. But it's something I've seen here many times.
Anyway, makes my point about the keys on my HHKB even more valid, if they are exactly the same.
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As for myself, I have to make up my mind if I want to go with the 103 U or U-UW.
I actually meant I have to choose between the "86U" and the 103U-UW.
I'm deciding if I should get the ten key or ten keyless version for myself.
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Ohhh I understand now. Tough decision, since the 86UW is price so much higher (and could come down if they had a sale or something). You could always email EK and ask if they have any B-stock 86UW's (might have a scratched key or demo board or something).
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Yeah, I couldn't understand the price difference for what is basically "less" board, however that could indicate a higher popularity I suppose. At least for me, it may be the ergo choice. Perahps writers/programmers favor them as a no-nonsense work board.
By the way, I am dabbling with writing and programming too.
Hence, I have to take my choice of kb seriously, especially as I have wrist issues, therefore the mucho inquires.
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Ohhh I understand now. Tough decision, since the 86UW is price so much higher (and could come down if they had a sale or something). You could always email EK and ask if they have any B-stock 86UW's (might have a scratched key or demo board or something).
Oh, Wait. I hope I didn't confuse here. I was comparing the the 103U and 103u-UW initially yes but have just moved that to comparing the 103U-UW and 86U.
I just discovered here in this thread that a "tenkeyless" board may make more sense for me, given my wrist issues and how ergonomics must play a role in my decision.
Also, thanks for that advice on the "B" stock for a less expensive 86U. I'll check it out.
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THIS THREAD is awesome because I have a 103-UW!!!!!
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Get back in your cage!
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I saw your review on cnet for the Topre. Good job on whipping back the noob heckler too! =)
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Lol thanks...I just got annoyed at that guy because he was complaining about stuff he should have realized the keyboard didn't have/do before he bought it! Then he complained after the fact. You shouldn't down-rate a keyboard because of PEBKAC issues.
(http://demotivationalblog.com/demotivational/2009/07/pebkac-tech-support-cant-help-you-when-youre-the-problem.jpg)
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Lol! Yes, I remember you explaining PEBKAC to him too..LOL!
Good closing arguments!
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Also, "that guy" made a reference to the high price tag of the Topre and come to think of it, cnet only three stars to the Topre for not having USB and other extras for the money but by their own admission, the price is reflected by what's under the hood.
Yeah, it's a bit of cash but so was the Model M when it was new. I can't remember where I read it recently but it said they went for around $300 back then new.
Maybe a long time vet of the Model M can clarify that.
You simply get what you pay for and I'm always willing to pay more to get more, especially seeing that few kbs out there address my specific needs.
On youtube, PT said that the Realforce replicted the IBM Model M's solid build. I still have to test it out though of course and will see then what I think but am willing to go on it solid rep so far.
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Yea, exactly.
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I emailed EK for a possible discounted 86U unit. We'll see eh?
Thanks for the advice. I'd rather have the tenkeyless version but if no discounted version is available, then I'll just have to get the discounted 103U-UW, otherwise, that's all I'm waiting for before I pull the trigger. By the way, how hard would it be to sell this keyboard here if I decided for whatever reason to sell? Besides that, would I be able to actually get at least most of my money back? I'd know w/in a week I suppose if it's not the one for me to keep.
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Reselling Topres here is like shooting fish in a barrel.
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Get back in your cage!
RAWR, don't make me bite your face off. *hugz*
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Still don't understand why he doesn't sell this years models. I'd be pretty sad PandaR not getting the latest/greatest.
Oh yeah, Majestouch not in the Diatec Diatribe.
I agree with this, luckily I am going to order the latest and greatest from LEOPOLD despite the high prices. High prices should never stop anyone from enjoying life to the fullest.
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For some reason, I hear "the Skipper's" voice when Panda "talks".
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For some reason, I hear "the Skipper's" voice when Panda "talks".
who is the skipper and how do i meet the skipper?
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The "Skipper" from "Ghiligan's Island". It's the Panda pic I guess. So burly. By the way, that was Alan Hale that played the Skipper and he has since passed. His
Dad acted too. Le me see, I think some old western called "Shenandoah" but not sure. Can't remember the old boy's name either. Rats.
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High prices should never stop anyone from enjoying life to the fullest.
That's what the hookers are always telling me...
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You know, if you can get a panda out of china, why not a keyboard?? Just think about that for a while won't yuh?
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You know, if you can get a panda out of china, why not a keyboard?? Just think about that for a while won't yuh?
I once had a keyboard from china, It smelt like moth balls for some reason.
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I'm concerned the new Leopolds will smell like Kimchi.
As long as it's not korean toejam i'm cool with that. Apparently Koreans have the worst toejam ever because the bacertia feasts on kimchi.
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definitely going to watch this movie
I like Kim Ki-duk movies as well.
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Curious about this.
Would anyone ever buy a $265 Realforce 86U instead of a $215 Realforce U-UW and why?
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gotta save that space with the 10keyless
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Does anyone know if the Topre has the same key feel as the IBM? I can only see so well on EK but it seems like the Topre keys look at least more simular than the average kb in key fatness/pitch, etc?
I've studied Ripster's Wiki piece but I need more clarity plz? I believe what Ripster said about there being more to a board than switches. In fact, I've already been shopping for what I've come to learn from Ripster's Wiki as "Key Pitch" or spacing and height and just general meatiness. I like the big munster keys on my Unicomp. At least they feel like that. Anyone? I really want to pull the trigger soon.
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I think the key spacing is quite standard. However, I do not own an IBM to compare it.
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Anyone know if I should "keep waiting" for answers from EK? I've emailed some inquires on the Realforce, in order to make a final decision on which to buy, if any and it's been a while.
I am basically waiting to pull the trigger here.
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I suspect they are really busy with the Leopolds. Did you try to PM majestouch? You may get a quicker response.
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Anyway, if anyone can tell if they know that the Topre is a more comfortable ride than the Unicomp for crampy hands/wrists that would be appreciated. I like my Unicomp and think it treats my hands better than my rubber dome but I still have issues. I'm wondering if the Topre would be another level up for me, since it has the variable weight keys and "springy" dome.
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I suspect they are really busy with the Leopolds. Did you try to PM majestouch? You may get a quicker response.
I suspected that too and that's why I'm not "griping" but just wanted someone else to maybe concur w/my suspician. I can PM him yeah. I suspect that Majes, who is Brian, is in fact EK? A very small Co?
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Yep. I think the company is pretty much all him.
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I suppose this will be subjective but I like to see what others are doing but I'm wondering if the Realforce will be a better choice for "writing" than other boards, as far as "comfort" for achey wrists go? I would suppose a person dealing w/my issues would know better but anyone can give me their thoughts.
Otherwise, I'm actually getting ready to pull it!
Also, please see post #77 as well?
Thanks
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Would I be assuming right If I said that the Realforce would likely make a better choice for "writing" as opposed to the Space Saver when it comes to comfort on long writing sessions? My hands start to "cramp up" if I type too long at a time. I take breaks.
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While you should always take breaks while typing for long periods of time, I do find that my HHKB (uses the Topre switches) is more comfortable if I'm going to be typing continuously for several hours.
I rarely ever do that though, so I have no issues with my Unicomp and IBM keyboards.
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So, then the Topre switches are probably worth the higher premium. What is meant when the HHKB is described as being designed with programmers in mind?
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Usually at page 6 of a "what keyboard should I buy" thread, there are more photos of hot chicks. I'm looking at you, OP! ;)
I believe the HHKB layout is good for programmers who only work in Unix/Linux and primarily via the command line. I really don't know exactly why, though.
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The keyboard layout is more in line with the programs we use. For vi, Esc is used a lot, and it's a pain to reach up that high to use it. Emacs uses control a lot, so why waste space on the capslock key, which is almost never used.
It really is a UNIX thing, which makes sense, since that layout is often referred to as the UNIX layout. It was the only layout for Solaris users for many years, as well.
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Thanks for that explaination.
I'm very close to ordering my own Topre. I just can't make up my mind which one yet.
For writing, I would like the 86U for ergo reasons and wouldn't need the tenkey anyway but I just can't get around the $50 increase over the current discounted 103U-UW, which would be a more econmical intro to Topre switches. I wonder Why some others prefer tenkeyless version?
Also, is there any point to ordering before Monday now? I mean, would the order even ship before then anyway?
If it would ship this weekend, then I'll put my order in tonight!
Please, someone give me their reasons for going "tenkeyless" and why they think it may/may not be worth the $50 increase over the 103U-UW?
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Well, I don't see the need for a tenkeyless, but when I covered mine on my Customizer, I found it very frustrating, as apparently I use it more than I thought.
That would be my advice. Cover your current tenkey, and see how often that frustrates you. If it never does, and you want the space, spend the money and get the 86. Personally, I would prefer to keep the money, and get the 103, even if I didn't use the tenkey as often as I apparently do.
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Thanks, I was leaning towards the 103, as I am used to it and do use the tenkey regularily, though for more mundane things, like bills, passwords, etc. I do like the full-size set up but am begining to like the cleaner look of the 86U.
One unique advantage to getting the 103 is that my wife would be my tester and if she likes the Topre, then I'll order her own which would be the 103UB, as she wants/needs her tenkey and prefers black.
If after trialing mine, she doens't like it for some reason, then I save money on a keyboard that I shouldn't have purchased and I still have my own in "classic white", which has become my favorite.
One question left. Do you know if EK would begin processing my order this weekend?
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Not sure if this has been posted before, but ANYWAY...
(http://www.weird-websites.info/Weird-Fashions/strange-clothes-pictures/angel-kitty-keyboard-japanese-fashion.jpg)
No guarantee EK will begin processing right away. They have taken a couple days for me before.
I personally think the 103U-UW is a much better deal. I personally don't think the 86U is worth the price it's at. I would have bought the 86U back when it was $230 (what's up with the price fluctuations???) And the tenkeyless isn't THAT much more ergonomic...
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I'm going w/the 103U-UW. I hope that a white board comes out w/unform wieighting but maybe down the road. Do you have a pref on "uniform" vs "variable" weighted keys and why?
Ripster,
Do you know what the key weight of the Space Saver is?
I tried to find it on the Wiki but...Isn't it something like 60g or something?
Certainly more than the "55g" unform Topre.
Also, maybe the variable thing is not a matter for me as I don't type quickly anyway and tend to "hit" the keys. I tend to type medocre speed.
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I'm going w/the 103U-UW. I wish that a white board came w/unform wieighting but maybe down the road. Do you have a pref on "uniform" vs "variable" weighted keys and why?
Ripster,
Do you know what the key weight of the Space Saver is?
I tried to find it on the Wiki but...
Isn't it something like 60g or something? Certainly more than the "55g" unform Topre.
You can always mod your Topre to be unifom.
Ripsted made a good article on that in the mods section.
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Yeah, I remember that now. I'll have to look that over again for just in case. Thanks.
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I'm going to order the my Topre tonight but am wondering what others think of the leather wrist pad? Could that help me or not? I've heard different things on where/how to rest your wrists or not rest them at all. Confusing.
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I'm going to order the my Topre tonight but am wondering what others think of the leather wrist pad? Could that help me or not? I've heard different things on where/how to rest your wrists or not rest them at all. Confusing.
Some people find wrist rests helping them, and some don't. I think you need to try using a wrist rest in order to get the best answer to that. You can do something ghetto like I did, to try a wrist rest out, and finding if that would suit for you.
A ghetto wrist rest made from 2 pieces of memory foam (or something like that), wrapped around some fabric. Cost me about $2 to make.
(http://tux.fi/~kumis/Wristrest/Wristrest.JPG)
(http://tux.fi/~kumis/Wristrest/Wristrest3.JPG)
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It would be easier to fold a towel just to get the feel.
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lol. That takes ghetto to a new level. I thought the db_iodine was embroidered at first, then realized it was supposed to be a watermark :P
I thought of doing it properly at first, but then soon realized it would be too much work.
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Well, isn't the concept of keeping one's hands "level" the key here for max ergo comfort?
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The variable weighting is very subtle and I personally like it. I don't think an all 45g from the keyboard co would be anywhere near as inexpensive.
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Agreed. I think that everything points to the 103U-UW for my first Topre. It's White, Full size, variable keys that I want to try and the best price over the other models. All together the best intro to the Realforce. Why not.
I'm going to order tonight and post in "It's in the mail" accordingly. Thanks all!
Oh, in the meantime, I'm waiting until tonight on purpose, just in case someone mentions anything at all that I should consider/know about before pulling the trigger on this board.
Continued replies are welcome! Thanks again.
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Great! If you do order it, welcome to the club! =)
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Thanks! Me and the Mrs are heading over too Mom's for dinner. Later on tonight, I'll head over to EK to seal the deal and post it in "It's in the mail". See ya then.
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Great! If you do order it, welcome to the club! =)
I just did and thanks!