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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: nullface on Sun, 06 March 2011, 17:49:07

Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: nullface on Sun, 06 March 2011, 17:49:07: I am inches away form ordering my first mechanical board, a Filco Majestouch/Tenkeyless with Blue switches.

But I'm a bit torn between the Tenkyeless and the regular version.

I love the compact look of the Tenkeyless but at the same time I'm afraid I'll miss the numpad. I don't use it that much at home, but I use it a lot at work so I'm kinda used to having it around, even though I only use it for the occasional passwords and stuff like that, at home that is.

Any thoughts on this, and how to decide?
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Culinia on Sun, 06 March 2011, 17:52:25: Hi there.

I thought the same thing.

If I were to buy another keyboard I would probably buy one without the numpad now to be honest. You said yourself that you don't use it much at home and that you like the compactness of it.

So I say go for the tenkeyless!!
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 06 March 2011, 17:55:58: I think it depends on if you really need to gain that deskspace or not. If that doesn't matter, and you use the numpad, might as well have it. Otherwise, tenkeyless is fine and you get used to using the number row after a little time.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Lpb45 on Sun, 06 March 2011, 18:01:45: I was in the same position and just said screw it and bought a tenkeyless for home and a 104 for work. Best of both worlds
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Rairden on Sun, 06 March 2011, 18:12:49: For heavy gaming I demand a tenkeyless, with my 24" mouse pad I hate my 104 keys covering up 6" of my mouse pad. Also the mouse closer to my keyboard.

With the 87 key filco its much nice IMO. The keyboard feels slighter more centered (compared to swung way out into left field) and my mouse doesnt bang up against the right side anymore.

At work I use a laptop for data entry. And while I type 120wpm, tenkey at 300+ kpm, I have actually gotten quite fast at data entry with no tenkey. But not nearly as fast as tenkey, of course.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: dissident on Sun, 06 March 2011, 18:29:24: I use the arrow keys and numpad while gaming rather then the typical WSAD keys. I could train myself to do it the way most people do though, I've just got use to the 'feel' of the keys in that location. So I have one full size, one tenkeyless. I game in the living room on a huge 'cozysac' beanbag in front of a 60 inch LCD though. The extra length of the left side of the keyboard allows me to rest it on the beanbag/recliner.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: KosherPieFiasco on Sun, 06 March 2011, 18:41:05: If you don't use the numpad much, I'd go with the tenkeyless. You'll gain a lot of desk space, and you can always enter your passwords with the number keys at the top of the board.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: kill will on Sun, 06 March 2011, 19:24:02: Get a tenkeyless. You wont regret it. Get a usb numpad if you really need it and put it wherever you want.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Lpb45 on Sun, 06 March 2011, 19:45:01: dissident, ya I gamed like that for probly ten years. I started when I first got into q2 online and never ever changed it until recently but its gone smoothly I just needed the right keyboard so my hand didn't feel out of place and to train myself the new keys. I still have a little problem in mmo's using the number keys above though
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Sun, 06 March 2011, 21:08:46: Tenkeyless must be popular because the Topre tenkeyless is $20 more than the full keyboard version and there must be a good reason for that. I only use the keypad for "doing bills" and yes passwords but I don't deal w/too much.
I'm leaning towards trying my first tenkeyless for ergo reasons as I hear it's good ergonomics to have your hand straight ahead of you along side the kb vs angled off because the extra kb length forcing you to mouse further off to the right. I know it's a real problem for some as my Wife even complains of her arm hurting after mousing at length. You have to look at the whole pic I guess of what's most important to you. I too have ergo issues and have made that my top priority for what I decide on. My two cents.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 06 March 2011, 21:12:07: Weird, because it has fewer keys.

(http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/3887802/Tenkeyless-Get-Discount.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=High-Expectations-Asian-Father)
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 06 March 2011, 21:16:04: Do a google image search for tenkeyless + discount :D

I actually did see a watermarked version, but chose not to use it.

Booyeah.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Moneyless on Sun, 06 March 2011, 22:43:01: Quote from: ripster;306579
I love my watermark. I'm thinking of shaving it into my dog.

If you shave your watermark into your dog and then take a picture of it to show us, will you still watermark the picture? :biggrin:
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: NamelessPFG on Sun, 06 March 2011, 23:21:50: I moved to a tenkeyless board, but the DSI Modular Mac has one saving grace: the numpad scancodes can easily be done with Fn-key combinations. (I could also buy a matching numpad module later, if I wished.)

For gaming, though, it had better be a game that doesn't make heavy use of the numpad. ArmA might. Any sort of vehicle simulation WILL. (In fact, they'll use the entire keyboard, tenkeys and all, several times over with the help of Ctrl, Shift, Alt, and combinations thereof.)
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Chobopants on Sun, 06 March 2011, 23:56:20: Quote from: NamelessPFG;306634
I moved to a tenkeyless board, but the DSI Modular Mac has one saving grace: the numpad scancodes can easily be done with Fn-key combinations. (I could also buy a matching numpad module later, if I wished.)

For gaming, though, it had better be a game that doesn't make heavy use of the numpad. ArmA might. Any sort of vehicle simulation WILL. (In fact, they'll use the entire keyboard, tenkeys and all, several times over with the help of Ctrl, Shift, Alt, and combinations thereof.)

It's funny. I mouse left-handed and use the numpad for what most people use the WASD cluster for, using 8 4 6 2 for movement, 0 for jump, and ./Del for crouch and Enter for use. I'm actually in the exact opposite situation as most people. I have a Filco full size Brown for gaming and will be pre-ordering a Leopold Tenkeyless Blue for work tomorrow (though I'm actually a little scared about the sound in an office environment).
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Moneyless on Mon, 07 March 2011, 10:46:15: Quote from: NamelessPFG;306634
I moved to a tenkeyless board, but the DSI Modular Mac has one saving grace: the numpad scancodes can easily be done with Fn-key combinations. (I could also buy a matching numpad module later, if I wished.)

For gaming, though, it had better be a game that doesn't make heavy use of the numpad. ArmA might. Any sort of vehicle simulation WILL. (In fact, they'll use the entire keyboard, tenkeys and all, several times over with the help of Ctrl, Shift, Alt, and combinations thereof.)

Garry's Mod (http://store.steampowered.com/app/4000/?snr=1_7_suggest__13) uses the numpad keys as well.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: eot on Mon, 07 March 2011, 10:57:29: In CS I use the numpad for buy scripts. I couldn't get by without it :)
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: rustybarnacle on Mon, 07 March 2011, 11:50:35: So here's my solution - keep some other keyboard in the closet with a numpad. Then, if you ever do find yuorself doing taxes in excel or something, or playing garry's mod apparently, then bust the bigger keyboard out. Otherwise, it is hard to explain the sheer amount of extra desk you will reclaim. You're probably looking at your full sized keyboard right now and thinking "ALl that deskspace? It's like 4 inches maybe!" And yes, it is like 4 inches, but it feels like a lot more.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 07 March 2011, 11:58:21: I am very pro-numpad, but I do a lot of "numbers" work since I am in retail (UPC typing, calculations, dates, etc.). If you don't do a lot of calculations, you can get away with not having a numpad. I use the calculator a ton, and that is a helluva lot faster on a numpad than on the number row. I also type a lot of dates writing queries and such, and that, too, is a lot faster on the numpad than otherwise. Even when I used to use a HHKB full time, I had a numpad to go with it.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Moneyless on Mon, 07 March 2011, 11:58:52: Quote from: rustybarnacle;306924
So here's my solution - keep some other keyboard in the closet with a numpad. Then, if you ever do find yuorself doing taxes in excel or something, or playing garry's mod apparently, then bust the bigger keyboard out. Otherwise, it is hard to explain the sheer amount of extra desk you will reclaim. You're probably looking at your full sized keyboard right now and thinking "ALl that deskspace? It's like 4 inches maybe!" And yes, it is like 4 inches, but it feels like a lot more.

OMG I know, after getting a Tenkeyless, I can't look at fullsized keyboards anymore... my first thought is always "but jeez, that wouldn't fit on my desk..." :dizzy:
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on Mon, 07 March 2011, 13:23:13: You can try it out for yourself with a ghetto tenkeyless!

Just get some cardboard, blocks of wood or whatever and build a tiny platform over top of the numberpad. Then place your mouse pad and mouse on said platform and enjoy your ghetto tenkeyless. You will very shortly notice if having the mouse closer to center is more comfortable, or if you have to keep moving the platform to get to the numberpad.

I've been using a similar ghetto setup for the last two or three months and have decided to get a real tenkeyless at some point.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: db_Iodine on Mon, 07 March 2011, 13:46:48: Quote from: Mr. Perfect;306991
You can try it out for yourself with a ghetto tenkeyless!

Just get some cardboard, blocks of wood or whatever and build a tiny platform over top of the numberpad. Then place your mouse pad and mouse on said platform and enjoy your ghetto tenkeyless. You will very shortly notice if having the mouse closer to center is more comfortable, or if you have to keep moving the platform to get to the numberpad.

I've been using a similar ghetto setup for the last two or three months and have decided to get a real tenkeyless at some point.

I'd like to see some pics of this "ghetto mod".
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: pitashen on Mon, 07 March 2011, 14:01:27: I think it is quite easy to determine. If you don't type a lot of numbers often, you will be perfectly fine with a tenkeyless. I have been living without num pad for over a year now. No regrets.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: manfaux on Mon, 07 March 2011, 14:03:43: Numpad on a full-size keyboard totally unnecessary, if you do need one, get a separate numpad.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: NamelessPFG on Mon, 07 March 2011, 14:04:35: I just got a crazy idea.

Perhaps there's a TI-84 app that makes the calculator usable as a USB numpad, and I don't just mean that TI-SmartView emulator. Almost all the extra keys could possibly send other characters or scan codes.

Most of you probably don't have such a calculator lying around, and it's far cheaper to buy a mechanical keyswitch pad, but students like myself are generally required to buy them anyway.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: rustybarnacle on Mon, 07 March 2011, 14:40:30: You also can, of course, just buy a separate numpad
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: CephalicCarnage on Mon, 07 March 2011, 14:51:53: I agree with the posters above on getting a separate num pad. Find one you like and you'll only need that one num pad to pair with all of your future tenkeyless boards.

You'll also have the bonus of being able to place it wherever you want.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on Mon, 07 March 2011, 15:07:48: Quote from: db_Iodine;307005
I'd like to see some pics of this "ghetto mod".

It's severely underwhelming. My version consists of an empty check box. Film at 11!
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Moneyless on Mon, 07 March 2011, 15:13:03: Quote from: ripster;307076
Actually I think people should man up and use the number row.

And for gaming get a PS3. Just think of the money you'll save on Graphic Cards!

Think of all the 12 year olds you'll get to play with!
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: keyb_gr on Mon, 07 March 2011, 17:46:07: Quote from: Chobopants;306641
It's funny. I mouse left-handed and use the numpad for what most people use the WASD cluster for, using 8 4 6 2 for movement, 0 for jump, and ./Del for crouch and Enter for use. I'm actually in the exact opposite situation as most people.

Are you a left-mousing righty? If so: Congratulations! You can use a fullsize keyboard exactly like it was intended to!

Us right-mousing lefties are pretty much screwed. The numpad gets in the way on the right, and on top of that there aren't any lefty numpads.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: NamelessPFG on Mon, 07 March 2011, 18:01:43: Quote from: ripster;307076
And for gaming get a PS3. Just think of the money you'll save on Graphic Cards!

All I'll be thinking about is all the PC games/sims I can't play, if that were the case.

Not to say that I won't add a PS3 to my fleet of consoles, but I'm not sure it's worth it right now.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:27:04: How about this? I am very close to getting a Topre and want to get the tenkeyless white 86U. This would be my first tenkeyless ever. I was intitially going with the full version 103U-UW, as it's on sale for $215 but alas, I suddenly became very interested in the tenkeyless unit mentioned but it's $265..Ouch! I want a Topre but there's a $50 spread involved. I genuinely want the tenkeyless more but oh the $$$. Think about that won't ya.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: rustybarnacle on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:28:29: I am definitely in the ripster camp on topres - springy domes, and they feel just like it. 99 leopold w/browns. w00t.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:33:07: Quote from: Engine;308117
How about this? I am very close to getting a Topre and want to get the tenkeyless white 86U. This would be my first tenkeyless ever. I was intitially going with the full version 103U-UW, as it's on sale for $215 but alas, I suddenly became very interested in the tenkeyless unit mentioned but it's $265..Ouch! I want a Topre but there's a $50 spread involved. I genuinely want the tenkeyless more but oh the $$$. Think about that won't ya.

Have you voted yet in the Realforce colour poll?
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:37:10: Rusty,
I was unaware of Ripster not liking Topres, if that's the case.

Rigs,
No, and where is it?
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:39:29: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15808 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15808)
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:57:11: Quote from: ripster;308130
Uh, never said I didn't like them. They ARE #4 in my prioritized sig. It's just they are closer to rubber domes than they are to springy Cherry MX and grainy ALPS.

And superb keys and build. Switches aren't everything.

Ripster,
Here's my dilema. I actually want to "man up" and get the 86U but it's $50 more than the 103U-UW that I initially wanted. I went with the tenkeyless in hopes of helping my ergonomics. Do you think it's worth it? In fact, while I'm at it, let me say that I picked the Topre for the variable keys as well other factors, for ergo reasons as well. "What say you" because I'm ready to pull it!
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 08 March 2011, 19:59:28: At one point the 86U was priced at $230. You could always email them and ask why did the price jump up? The price-jumping at EK really annoys me.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 08 March 2011, 20:02:51: If you have wrist issues then I guess the realforce is not for you.
You should look for two-handed keyboards like the Maltron.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 20:26:22: RiGS,
No. I will never use one of those boards. I'm going to see my Doc for my wrists and see what to do and do it but for the long haul, mainly all of it, I just want as comfortable a "normal" board as I can get w/o going to the wierd split boards, etc.
A board w/"ergo"-like qualities and I think the Realforce is possibly a very good candidate. I am actually experiencing a more comfortable ride w/the Unicomp Space Saver I got last month. Not perfect but worlds better than my Compaq rubber dome. I'm just looking for simple tweeks in the whole picture.
I think I'm best to start a new thread for this topic if I continue.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 20:32:58: I was thinking of trying a Leopold to try out Cherry switches for the first time and Blues to boot. The Cherry rep told me that the Blues are closest to the BS. I like my Unicomp so that's my choice if I go Leo but do you think I should try Brown instead for some reason? This too could be my economical choice for tenkeyless.
But then again, I'm afraid to get into a board that may be tiring?
Dunno.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 08 March 2011, 20:33:46: You should probably find a gymnast coach and start conditioning your wrists.
That worked out for me quite well. I also recommend you to get a powerball.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 08 March 2011, 20:34:20: If you don't mind a loud keyboard and you like buckling springs, blues are worth a try for sure.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 21:12:43: Sorry for taking this off topic. I'll re-address this in a new thread. Thanks for all your help!
To Nullface,
You have to decide what's important to you and go with it. If for no other reason, you just want to "try a tenkeyless", then I personally think it's worth a shot but's it's your money, so with that, I'd say do what you are comfortable with. For me, I'm wanting to try a tenkeyless for ergonomics reasons mainly. Deskspace is not an issue for me. If not for the ergo thing, I'd not even look at a tenkeyless. After all, I do think the numpad is nice to have at times.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 21:22:42: Quote from: RiGS;308132
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15808 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15808)

I'm not sure I understand. Is a white board with black text on the keys "Black on White"?
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: rustybarnacle on Tue, 08 March 2011, 21:34:27: Quote from: Engine;308211
Deskspace is not an issue for me.

It isn't a question of total desk space - it's a question of either a) how off center your keyboard is to make room for your mouse or b) how far away your mouse is if your keyboard is properly centered. The worlds largest desk doesn't solve that issue. Smaller keyboards do.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Tue, 08 March 2011, 21:54:06: That makes sense. My point is only that I don't really care about a tenkeyless, unless it's better for me somehow, ergonomically. I otherwise like a "full-service" board.
At any rate, I may just follow my own advice and "try" it by going with an "economical" choice in the "Leo" and blues at that because I do like the clack.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 08 March 2011, 23:54:29: I find that when I have a tenkey, I use it a lot, and when I don't, I'm fine with the number row, though I make more errors.

Oddly, I have no problem hitting the keys when I'm after the shifted character, but for some reason, when I'm going for numbers, it's just harder to orient. Maybe it's the one off versus repeated reaching.

I will say though, my HHKB next to my Customizer just looks ridiculous. And I do love them both. Then again, in my office I have a 122 key Model M 1397000 behemoth. And it makes me so happy to use.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: audioave10 on Wed, 09 March 2011, 00:47:03: I vote tenkeyless for gaming at home (and I would never buy a PS3...to hell with Sony).
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: RiGS on Wed, 09 March 2011, 06:20:41: Quote from: Engine;308214
I'm not sure I understand. Is a white board with black text on the keys "Black on White"?

Yes.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Engine on Wed, 09 March 2011, 16:30:52: I looked at thekeyboardcompany site and can't find jack. No Topres or anything else except for a bunch of Circus boards.
On the other hand, I do appreciate the large numbered/large key kbs for my father in law...That part is cool but for me, nada.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on Wed, 09 March 2011, 20:58:46: Quote from: db_Iodine;307005
I'd like to see some pics of this "ghetto mod".

Here are a couple of quick cell phone pictures to demonstrate the idea. If you spend more then thirty second on it's construction, it would turn out far nicer. A scrap of sheet steel bent in a [ shape for example.

First, this is the beginning fullsize keyboard centered in front of the monitor with mouse setup off to the left.
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4862/fullsize.png)

Here we have construction of the mod. A box of "checks"(I'm told they're like an electronic money transfer, but from the analog age) happens to be the same height as the keyboard.
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/899/modinabox.png)
*Lego used to conform to international GeekHack picture standards.

Finally, we have the end result: a ghetto tenkeyless. Hakuna matata, baby! This particular mouse pad is a very thick rubber and spreads the force out evenly. Despite the left side being placed directly on top of the key caps, they do not actuate.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9927/ghettotenkeyless.png)

Play around with it, see how you like it, and then spend $100 on a board.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 09 March 2011, 22:59:03: For a while I had my trackball on top of my numpad, but I found myself moving it out of the way too often to hit the keys.

But I still love my travel HHKB.
Title: Numpad or no numpad?
Post by: db_Iodine on Thu, 10 March 2011, 00:57:49: Quote from: Mr. Perfect;308836

Show Image
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9927/ghettotenkeyless.png)

Nice mousepad.