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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Eric on Thu, 17 March 2011, 16:10:19

Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: Eric on Thu, 17 March 2011, 16:10:19: I've never used a mechanical keyboard so I'm not sure what they're supposed to feel like. A few days I was at goodwill and they had a Compaq MX11800. I was able to test it on a computer they had in the back, but the trackball didn't work so I didn't buy it. Changed my mind the next day, but it was already gone.

The letter keys felt very smooth, I couldn't feel ANY tactile bump. But the top row Home, Page Up, Scroll lock keys did have a very slight bump that I could feel.

So, do cherry brown switches wear out overtime? If they do wear out how hard/easily can they be replaced with new ones?

Do the blue ones also wear out?
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 16:25:15: The only Brown Cherry keyboard I've ever typed on, like you, was an old Compaq MX. I too found them effectively non-tactile. I'd like to think that wear was to blame here, but I'm not sure.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: vun on Thu, 17 March 2011, 16:27:59: Quote from: ch_123;313502
The only Brown Cherry keyboard I've ever typed on, like you, was an old Compaq MX. I too found them effectively non-tactile. I'd like to think that wear was to blame here, but I'm not sure.

My filco with browns that arrived in the mail today does have a slight tactile bump, but it's barely noticeable. I didn't notice it at all when I first tried it.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 17 March 2011, 16:31:17: Moving parts wear.
Cherry tactile switches generally have a life time of 20 million strokes.
Linear switches are rated at 50 million strokes.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 16:37:44: I do have the experience of typing on a new Blue Cherry keyboard, and a ten year old one, and the wear is enough to make it feel like a different switch. Substantially moreso than the difference between a new Unicomp and a 15 year old Model M.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: digitalleftovers on Thu, 17 March 2011, 17:01:15: Quote from: vun;313507
My filco with browns that arrived in the mail today does have a slight tactile bump, but it's barely noticeable. I didn't notice it at all when I first tried it.

It took me a week or two to feel the tactile bump on my filco with browns (at all). I had never tried them before buying that board. It was not until I got another brown board for work that I stopped bottoming out the keys (most of the time.) Now I can always feel the bump.

The bump is cased by friction against a tab, so its entirely understandable that they would not last as long as BS keyboard. Try working out the calculations though. Its not hard to realise Just how long a 20mil actuation key will last

If you pressed a key once per second for 8 hours a day, for 1 year, you would only reach 10,512,000 actuations. So, you would still get another year of use out of it. That example is ridiculous though. I would bet that the max that even a secretary would type would be three or four hours per day of continuous, full speed typing. And even then, you would need to determine the most used single key, and the frequency that it is used at average typing speed.

In the end, your cherry switch (tactile or not) may not last as long a Buckling Spring. But you can rest assured that they will last a VERY LONG time.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: Exoverture on Thu, 17 March 2011, 17:04:09: It did take a while to find the bump in the browns... a week or so.

Once I did though, it's very noticeable. I find it more noticeable when I type faster. It's great, I appreciate it more and more everyday.

Might be after a Unicomp next :)
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: BucklingSpring on Thu, 17 March 2011, 17:29:29: Quote from: RiGS;313508
Moving parts wear.
Cherry tactile switches generally have a life time of 20 million strokes.
Linear switches are rated at 50 million strokes.

Maybe once but no longer true. I had that debate on Deck's forum. I've finally contacted Cherry and they updated their website after I pointed that out. They wrote me back telling me it was a "mistake" and the website was corrected shorly after.

All MX's are now rated at 50 million cycles.
Snapshot in time...
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16185&stc=1&d=1300400866)
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:00:43: Quote from: BucklingSpring;313532
Maybe once but no longer true. I had that debate on Deck's forum. I've finally contacted Cherry and they updated their website after I pointed that out. They wrote me back telling me it was a "mistake" and the website was corrected shorly after.

All MX's are now rated at 50 million cycles.
Snapshot in time...
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16185&stc=1&d=1300400866)

Quote
I sent a physical letter to Cherry asking for the lifespan of the MX Blue switch. I got no reply. I sent an e-mail asking the same question. They sent a reply after a few days telling me that the switch rating is 50 million cycles. At the same time, ZF Asia (Cherry Asia) told me the same, 50 million cycles. Now get the cool part. About a week later I receive a written answer from Cherry in the mail, in reply to my original snail-mail letter. The letter is telling me that the lifecycle is 20 million switches and the "50 million" is probably a mistake in their catalog, that should only be valid for MX Black.

I have quoted that from sixty.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:06:16: The last I checked, the Germans think its 20, the Americans think its 50.

Given that the Blue Cherry's clicker can be defeated by a hair, I'd veer more towards the German version of events.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:07:34: I use the arrows all the time, and I have already noticed some wear in the topre domes.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:12:50: Quote from: RiGS;313557
I use the arrows all the time, and I have already noticed some wear in the topre domes.

You've been using it for 2 days. That's literally impossible.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: Surly73 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:13:00: Quote from: RiGS;313557
I use the arrows all the time, and I have already noticed some wear in the topre domes.

Wow, what's with all the Topre trolling by RiGS today?

On topic, when typing I can't feel any tactility from my fairly new browns at all. They feel different than linear, but I don't feel a tactile bump at all. It gets less apparent to me the faster I go. If I take 1 second to depress a key, then I feel it. They're new enough to still feel a wee bit gritty, though.

I tried a co-workers 12 year old Kinesis with browns and I didn't pick up any sign of tactility there either. On the other hand, it's been going hard for 12 years and still working fine...
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:13:19: Quote from: ripster;313556
I think the Germans and Americans are making their numbers up.

Just like the part numbers :P

Quote
I use the arrows all the time, and I have already noticed some wear in the topre domes.

Yeah, there was a guy who made a video comparing the HHKB he had used for 1-2 years straight compared with a brand new one. The wear makes them noisier, and supposedly less smooth.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: digitalleftovers on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:15:45: Quote from: RiGS;313557
I use the arrows all the time, and I have already noticed some wear in the topre domes.

Topre are supposed to be 30 Million? That is what I have read. Due to the use of rubber, I would imagine that more would go into the life of their tactility than a cherry switch. Things like humidity, temperature, etc...
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:18:56: The failure point in a standard rubber dome keyboard is the contact mechanism. Once you put in something like capacitive switching, they should easily outlast a Cherry or Alps.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:23:03: The tactile bump in the rubber dome eventually wears down.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: kps on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:23:23: I have three Kinesis contoured keyboards: one used daily for 12 years, one used daily for 5 years, and one used only occasionally. They feel distinctly different; some of the heavily used keys on the oldest feel almost linear.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:23:49: Seeing as he's used it for 2-3 days, rubber dome wear at this point seems impossible.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: digitalleftovers on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:24:14: Quote from: ch_123;313572
The failure point in a standard rubber dome keyboard is the contact mechanism. Once you put in something like capacitive switching, they should easily outlast a Cherry or Alps.

I believe you are correct. The spring would still actuate, I'm just not sure how long the rubber would maintain the action indicated in the Topre force diagram.

I would like to know this, though.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:27:51: I played, and scrolled like twelve hours with the arrows, and the wear in the bump is subtle, but noticeable.
I enjoy them more this way.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:30:18: If you scroll anything for 12 hours straight you'll notice some wear.

I know from experience, but haven't done so since I was in middle school.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: digitalleftovers on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:31:31: Quote from: ripster;313586
Cherry Blues DEFINITELY break in after a few days. I've done side by side with identical Filcos on that one - old vs NIB.

Would you say that the sound AND the bump change over time, or just one of them?
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:31:58: Quote from: ripster;313577
Yeah but 90% of the tactility of a Topre is in the Rubber Dome. They aren't made from any exotic rubber so like any rubber dome they will get mushy someday well BEFORE their 30M rating.

This describes any switch. Hell, even buckling springs wear away in the end.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 18:38:30: Or in the case of a Blue Cherry switch, a piece of dust will get into it.

Or in the case of a Razer Blackwidow - keyboard suicide.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 17 March 2011, 19:35:37: Nuclear waste in Japan now get the switches of every Filco keyboards.

I suppose your Filco keyboards will become a nuclear reaction power factory in a few twenty years and provide electricity for your whole neighborhood.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 17 March 2011, 20:04:45: Filco keyboards are made in TW.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 17 March 2011, 20:06:25: Too soon, Tony.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 17 March 2011, 20:06:28: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as they say.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: Eric on Fri, 18 March 2011, 02:22:54: Quote from: digitalleftovers;313524
It took me a week or two to feel the tactile bump on my filco with browns (at all). I had never tried them before buying that board. It was not until I got another brown board for work that I stopped bottoming out the keys (most of the time.) Now I can always feel the bump.

Quote from: Exoverture;313525
It did take a while to find the bump in the browns... a week or so.

Once I did though, it's very noticeable. I find it more noticeable when I type faster. It's great, I appreciate it more and more everyday.

Hmm... maybe my one time trying the MX11800 wasn't long enough to notice the tactile bump? But, why'd the top row of keys feel different to me though? Maybe those top F keys had a different switch under them?

So I guess it looks like the consensus in this thread is they don't wear out. But this guy seems to say the browns feel like they turn into cherry reds after a few years.

http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/920053-my-opinions-cherry-switches.html (http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/920053-my-opinions-cherry-switches.html)
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: Exoverture on Fri, 18 March 2011, 03:55:04: Quote from: Eric;313782
Hmm... maybe my one time trying the MX11800 wasn't long enough to notice the tactile bump? But, why'd the top row of keys feel different to me though? Maybe those top F keys had a different switch under them?

So I guess it looks like the consensus in this thread is they don't wear out. But this guy seems to say the browns feel like they turn into cherry reds after a few years.

http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/920053-my-opinions-cherry-switches.html (http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/920053-my-opinions-cherry-switches.html)

I have noticed the top keys feeling (or should I say, sounding) different as well. I think it was 80% sound difference you heard, which made you think it felt different (it could feel a bit different too)... but it's because the top keys are higher up on the keyboard, making them have a more hollow sound as there is more space between the bottom of the keyboard to the top of the keyboard.

It is apparent with every key when comparing the most bottom key to the most top key.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: nocturn4l3030 on Fri, 18 March 2011, 03:55:10: the tactile bump on the brown is very subtle imo... you have to actually look for it to notice it
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 18 March 2011, 04:49:21: Quote from: ch_123;313597
Or in the case of a Blue Cherry switch, a piece of dust will get into it.

Which isn't fatal per se, it just needs to be blown out. Again, spills are the more critical factor here, as the remains can easily creep into the switch and make it sticky, requiring disassembly. Good luck on a plate-mounted board.
Quote
Or in the case of a Razer Blackwidow - keyboard suicide.

Is this really common? I did find one case of fried electronics.
Title: Do cherry brown switches wear out?
Post by: woody on Fri, 18 March 2011, 05:22:20: I am not sure how exactly Cherry rate their switches, i.e. is it the gold plating contact layers wearing out, the mechanism wearing out, or both. 20M or 50M, it sounds kinda extrapolated to me.
And the Topre capacitive sensing is good, but the rubber dome as basis of tactility/springiness scares me.