geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dr/owned on Thu, 24 March 2011, 03:14:37
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First Post! (after months of lurking)
So, I've had a Majestouch with the Cherry Brown switches for the past year or so. Previously I'd only used Logitech rubber boards and previous to that ye-olde Dell Quietkeys. I was expecting the heavens to part and angels to sing given the price tag on this board, but I have to say i don't think I really like it very much. I'm looking for some feedback on my thoughts and some potential alternatives:
I type in Dvorak and with a rubber board I can maintain 100+ wpm. With the Majestouch I feel like I have to think a lot more about each stroke and my speed has gone down to about 90-95 wpm.
Why am I thinking more? Well, I think the keys are a bit too narrow, even for my slender fingers. If I'm not bang on center then I feel the edge of the key and that throws me off. The biggest issue I think though is the keys feel chattery, so I'm always thinking "did that key actually go down". Best way I can describe it is it feels like there's too much shock transferred through the keys when they hit bottom, and the keys almost feel paper thin.
I really do like the feel of the rubber domes. Nice sized keys, smooth response, good feedback. What I don't like though, and the reason why I went mechanical in the first place, is that rubber domes change their consistency on a daily basis. Brand new rubber domes are awesome...3 years out it's like finger wrestling.
Would Topre be the way to go? Any specific brands/models (I don't need function keys or USB ports but I do prefer black and with a numpad...oh and relatively compact footprint ie no 3 inch plastic borders)? Budget would probably max out at $300, and I wouldn't mind ordering international to expand selection availability.
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I can trade you some logitechs rubber domes for your filco ;)
Well, you can buy a Topre 86UB in http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se05c0
With numpad http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce
Less than $300
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Well the variable weights on the springs is out since I'm into the gaming thing. And I'm unsure about 55g across the board too. These Browns do feel like the appropriate weight for me, maybe I'd go even a bit less if the response was totally linear. I think I'd really really want a light switch, near linear response, and rock solid but dull (not mushy though) response when bottomed out. As I mentioned first post, this Majestouch feels a bit too stiff in the response before actual actuation and a bit too harsh bottoming out (or bouncy when coming back up).
How does keysize compare on the Realforce vs Majestouch? Is there any vendors that sell 35/45 g Topre's? (It's the whole "if I'm going to empty 2 day's pay it better be perfect :) )
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Would Blue be a better thing for you, because then you really feel the actuation. But then you would have the actuation hysterisis 'cause of the double tapping "issues". Maybe try a Razer BlackWidow for a cheap blue experience?
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Mechanical keyboards are not for everyone.
If you have used and got accustomed to qualified rubber domes as Logitech ones, you may find a Filco nothing out of ordinary.
For a Filco brown user, I have learned not to bottom out to float my fingers and type faster. If you bottom out every key, a good laptop scissor keyboard with short travel may be good for you.
Practically you have to try a lot of switches to decide which is the best for you.
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Cherry Blue - The noise would probably annoy me. And for VoIP-ing, even the Browns are crazy loud over the microphone.
Tony - That's a good reminder. I've tried floating the keys but I just can't get used to it. I feel like I have to keep sneaking up on the actuation point which slows me down to about 70 wpm. My fingers get momentum that can't be stopped at high speed :)
A desktop board with scissor switches might indeed be the answer if I could find the right one. I like my laptop keyboard and can get some good speeds on them, but I always feel like I'll break them and they're crunching a bit when I start going high speed. Really wish I knew someone with a Topre that I could try out before blowing $250. I'm definitely going to have to head to Fry's and try some scissor boards soon.
EDIT: Now I'm also thinking maybe the Cherry Reds would be a good fit...gah I want communism where there's no choice!
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Why am I thinking more? Well, I think the keys are a bit too narrow, even for my slender fingers. If I'm not bang on center then I feel the edge of the key and that throws me off. The biggest issue I think though is the keys feel chattery, so I'm always thinking "did that key actually go down". Best way I can describe it is it feels like there's too much shock transferred through the keys when they hit bottom, and the keys almost feel paper thin.
I agree 100% with the keys being too narrow, that's for sure, When I first got my cherry brown board I couldn't believe how narrow these things were at the top, and it was extremely difficult for me to type on it after the keyboards I had grown used to. I got the hang of it after a while and now I can type with about the same speed on both (faster on the cherry brown's actually), but I still wish these things weren't so damn narrow.
It sounds to me like brown's just might not be the right fit for you and you might want to look into something that requires a bit more force. The browns are unbelievably light to me after coming from rubber domes, and if the amount of shock and clack is bothering you then you probably aren't the lightest of typists and might appreciate something that requires a bit more force. Not sure though as I'm still pretty new to this and have only tried browns so far, just my two cents.
The experience of browns is increased a lot by typing lightly and not bottoming out on all the keys, or at least not hitting the bottom too hard. If that's not something you're finding yourself able to do then I don't personally see that much point in them as they are significantly more annoying to type on when slamming the bottom.
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You say you want a light switch with linear force. That sounds like reds to me!
You could preorder a Poker with reds, but that is DEFINITELY not a full-sized 'board w/ numpad...and you'd have to wait quite a while (the upside being, you probably wouldn't have any issues reselling it if you didnt like it). :)
If I were you, I'd try blacks and reds and see if either of them fit the bill.
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they still have full sized red filcos on amazon for about 170
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You can probably find a Steelseries 6gv2 to try out MX Blacks.
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Eventually there will be a full-size Leopold with reds. You may want to wait for that.
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Eventually there will be a full-size Leopold with reds. You may want to wait for that.
If price difference stay the same. It should be around the same price as the tenkeyless or cheaper! =]
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Seems like I'm in a contradiction. If I go with Reds (which look like Browns without the bump in response) then I'll probably still bottom out the key all day long (which is cause for my annoyances). I've definitely tried lightening up my keystrokes from what I'm used to, but I move my fingers hard to move them fast, so they don't stop easily when they actually get to a key. Probably me lightening up my keystrokes is what has slowed me down a little bit. But at the same time I don't want something like the Model M, which I've used, because it's fatiguing to push each heavy key to the bottom of the earth.
On the other hand Blacks according to one guide aren't good for typing because of the linear curve. Rubber domes supposedly are like more exaggerated Topre's when looking at the response curve, so I guess I have no idea what it feels like to type on something with a linear response. Anyone got some good descriptors of what that feels like vs a rubber dome?
Offhand I'd say I'm leaning towards the Blacks. I don't think I need the "bump" feedback since I bottom out anyways and that'll serve as my "stop pushing and go to another key" notice. I'm a bit worried though that it'll affect how I game because off the top of my head I'm not sure how much I rely on the bump. I'll have to hunt around and find some shops that sell ghetto - brand black boards to try out. Any boards with wider keys than the Filco's and black switches?
It does definitely feel like circular logic. Reds because they're light and fast. Blacks because they won't bottom out as hard. Topre because you keep the bump but it isn't so harsh and you get a bit stiffer.
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Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.
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Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.
Whoa there. That settles that one. Buy a Cherry board to get the doubleshot keys, then put them on my Brown board to see if that helps. If it doesn't...go with the Reds (after trying out Blacks on a Steelseries) and I still have the extra keys to try out.
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Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.
But you need to bottom out a model M to register a keystroke and you don't need to bottom out an MX black. This may make all the difference in the world to the thread starter...
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This thread made me lol a bit. I think you should just buy a keyboard, try it out and see what you like/don't and go from there. If you just want to try reds, get the poker, because it is fairly cheap and it should resell easily if you don't like it. If you find that you really like reds, you could either keep the poker, or sell it and spring on a full size filco with reds. As far as blacks go, they don't move quite as fast on the classifieds here, so I would look for a cheap cherry brand board with blacks that you don't mind keeping around.
As far as the topre goes, I am in a similar boat in that I really would like to try it someday, but I am going to try most of the other switches first. I have browns currently and love them, but I am going to be trying blues, reds, and topre in that order eventually.
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I like the lightness of Browns and linear feel of Reds, but I found myself bottoming out almost all the time since I tend to to type hard. I decided to give Blacks a try again and now prefer them since I don't hardly ever bottom out due to the requirement of force to actuate the key.
If you want to give Blacks a try, this (http://cgi.ebay.com/CHERRY-G80-11900LPMUS-0-KEYBOARD-W-TOUCHPAD-/250778687045?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3a63931645#ht_2677wt_1139) is the cheapest Cherry board i've seen on Ebay with them.
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It is a cheap board indeed, but hard to resell.
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Yeah, not a lot of people on here tend to like Black switches. And those that like them I think would prefer a Filco, Ducky or Noppoo over a Cherry 11900.
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The Noppoo is a good bet for sure. The mx black Noppoo is the cheapest.
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I prefer using my 11900 due to it being PCB since I can mod the board with different switches if I decide to. The trackpad is great for when i'm lazy and use my PC for watching shows from my bed and controlling everything without going to my desk.
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Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.
They are, a lot heavier. I love my model M but blacks felt way too heavy to me.
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You are likely buttoming out on them.
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How are you not supposed to bottom out once in a while especially while gaming? Blacks are so stiff that you can feel the key push against your finger the entire way back on the rebound. I'm not sure how else to describe it but it's uncomfortable. Cherry blacks feel stiffer than Alps blacks to me.
I use buckling springs with out flinching too.
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I wouldn't be to inclined to recommend Cherry Reds for someone who seemed to dislike the Cherry Browns.
Looks like a uniform Topre would be a perfect board for what you are looking for. However a decent rubber dome board my suit you just as well.
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Blacks are so stiff that you can feel the key push against your finger the entire way back on the rebound.
Mx blacks easily let you control the activation point, so you don't need to press the switch any further, and the constant increase in resistance is a very good feedback.
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You like Cherry MX Blacks, we get it.
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Mx blacks easily let you control the activation point, so you don't need to press the switch any further, and the constant increase in resistance is a very good feedback.
The main problem that I would have with the stiff, linear keystroke it that it is too easy actuate the key twice by mistake due to the pressure of the spring if you twitch your finger on the way up or while trying to not bottom out. The actuation point is also very high so it's easy to hit adjacent keys by mistake.
It just wasn't my cup of tea but there is no way of knowing without trying one.
I honestly think that the op should try a board with buckling springs. He might like it. There is no wondering if you hit a key on a Model M. You can pick on up for a good price on fleabay and a new Unicomp isn't too expensive either. I actually think that owning a Model M should be a prerequisite for registration here. :tongue:
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Well, practice makes a man perfect. This is especially true for all linear switches, they certainly have a learning curve.
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I honestly think that the op should try a board with buckling springs. He might like it. There is no wondering if you hit a key on a Model M. You can pick on up for a good price on fleabay and a new Unicomp isn't too expensive either. I actually think that owning a Model M should be a prerequisite for registration here. :tongue:
I have a Model M and I just don't like it. The keys sound horrible and resonate (both in sound and the key vibrating) when they go down because of the springs snapping. It might not be a bad board for average typists, but it's also not fast enough in my opinion for > 60 wpm. It also definitely feels like I'm pushing down on a really long spring...like a gun with a really long trigger pull it gets annoying. That's why when someone said earlier in this thread Blacks are like the Model M, my reaction is hell no I don't want that.
I also did a bit of typing on my laptop to get the scissor key feel again. I think in the long run a short stroke would fatigue me and it's a bit too much "all or nothing". Even though I bottom out these Brown's non stop it's still nice to have some travel distance. The more I think of it, the more I probably will decide on the reds, after first giving the double shot keys a try.
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If you type bottomed out each key, then any Cherry switches, even red or brown are not for you. They all have the full 4mm travel distance, with register point about 2mm.
Scissor keyboards have 2mm bottom out and you are used to that, so that's clear that mech keyboards are NOT for you if you want to type bottomed out and fast on them.
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If you type bottomed out each key, then any Cherry switches, even red or brown are not for you. They all have the full 4mm travel distance, with register point about 2mm.
Scissor keyboards have 2mm bottom out and you are used to that, so that's clear that mech keyboards are NOT for you if you want to type bottomed out and fast on them.
Any geekhackers manage to type faster than 110 wpm on a mechanical board (which is about where I can peak on this Brown, but it rolls off as I get paranoid about my keystrokes and think more)?
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Sound horrible and resonate? I'm no expert on that, but that model m could be in need of a bolt mod.
Also, you may want to try some random Alps board. A Dell AT101 should be easy to get and has no click.
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Any geekhackers manage to type faster than 110 wpm on a mechanical board (which is about where I can peak on this Brown, but it rolls off as I get paranoid about my keystrokes and think more)?
I can pretty consistently do 130 on my browns when taking this test: http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/
That's going all out and trying to go as fast fast as I can, but I can do about 110 pretty leisurely and without always bottoming out, or at least bottoming out more softly when I do.
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If you type bottomed out each key, then any Cherry switches, even red or brown are not for you. They all have the full 4mm travel distance, with register point about 2mm.
Scissor keyboards have 2mm bottom out and you are used to that, so that's clear that mech keyboards are NOT for you if you want to type bottomed out and fast on them.
The travel of the switches can be shorten by modding (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8857&redirect=no) the keycaps with dental bands, or o-rings.
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The travel of the switches can be shorten by modding (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8857&redirect=no) the keycaps with dental bands, or o-rings.
Oh I like that idea....ebay here i come.
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Cherry Blues = 'Cheap' buckling spring rip-off (or rather 'wannabe rip-off'
Cherry Browns = Same colour as another thing that sometimes is brown ..
(starts with a S and ends in T .. Sorry, but IMO browns are CRAP)
Cherry Black (and Red) = AWESOME !!
Especially if you bottom out, fex because you learned to type properly on a old-school mechanical typewriter ..
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Cherry Blues = 'Cheap' buckling spring rip-off (or rather 'wannabe rip-off'
Cherry Browns = Same colour as another thing that sometimes is brown ..
(starts with a S and ends in T .. Sorry, but IMO browns are CRAP)
Cherry Black (and Red) = AWESOME !!
Especially if you bottom out, fex because you learned to type properly on a old-school mechanical typewriter ..
Initial thought after reading comment and name (http://video.adultswim.com/family-guy/im-a-wishing-troll.html)
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I can pretty consistently do 130 on my browns when taking this test: http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/
That's going all out and trying to go as fast fast as I can, but I can do about 110 pretty leisurely and without always bottoming out, or at least bottoming out more softly when I do.
I constantly **** up on that test. 98 is what I can get there. I'm pretty sure I type faster as a normal thing though. I dunno.
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I constantly **** up on that test. 98 is what I can get there. I'm pretty sure I type faster as a normal thing though. I dunno.
Yeah I really suck at that test. I hate that it shifts the words when you're on the last word and I can't read ahead, that really holds me back. I find type racer much more interesting as a typing test.
I get around 95-100 on that one. Type Racer I average around 120. I'm still a little faster on my Apple Aluminum than my Filco since I've been on Apple chiclets for 3-4 years now and only a few months on a Filco. That said, I'm noticing rapid speed gains on my Filco and wouldn't be surprised if I am faster on it in a couple months once I replace my work Apple keyboard with my Realforce on Monday.
http://play.typeracer.com/
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I had a rubber dome, then got the filco brown and my typing speed went up tremendously. I used to average 80-90. But after just one week of practice on the filco, maybe two weeks, I average 110 now.
I bottom out all the time. In fact, if I try to not bottom out it reduces my result by 10 wpm. It's easier on fingers and endurance. Also I found out that as the test goes on my bottoming out becomes greater and greater so I have to remind myself to stop banging on the keys because it ends up slowing me down.
I've had dozens of 118, 119, and 120's doing that test. I just cannot break that barrier of mid 120's. 130 is my new goal before the end of this year.
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8503/123wpm.jpg)
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Initial thought after reading comment and name (http://video.adultswim.com/family-guy/im-a-wishing-troll.html)
I couldn't see the vid so I'm not sure what your point was,
however I could see that you are from Kaliforniah.. So there probably wasn't one !
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Yeah I really suck at that test. I hate that it shifts the words when you're on the last word and I can't read ahead, that really holds me back. I find type racer much more interesting as a typing test.
I get around 95-100 on that one. Type Racer I average around 120. I'm still a little faster on my Apple Aluminum than my Filco since I've been on Apple chiclets for 3-4 years now and only a few months on a Filco. That said, I'm noticing rapid speed gains on my Filco and wouldn't be surprised if I am faster on it in a couple months once I replace my work Apple keyboard with my Realforce on Monday.
http://play.typeracer.com/
I'll check that test out. So far I've been doing them at work on browns but maybe I'll try some of my other boards at home. Maybe another day though, my left elbow has been hurting all day for some reason :(
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I get 50 WPM but i have always been a slow typer though i do type blind, maybe mechs will improve my speed.
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Yeah I really suck at that test. I hate that it shifts the words when you're on the last word and I can't read ahead, that really holds me back. I find type racer much more interesting as a typing test.
I get around 95-100 on that one. Type Racer I average around 120. I'm still a little faster on my Apple Aluminum than my Filco since I've been on Apple chiclets for 3-4 years now and only a few months on a Filco. That said, I'm noticing rapid speed gains on my Filco and wouldn't be surprised if I am faster on it in a couple months once I replace my work Apple keyboard with my Realforce on Monday.
http://play.typeracer.com/
I find type racer more interesting too, but all the weird words and extra keys can get annoying and don't seem great for just purely measuring speed. I like both of them though, and average around 110 on typeracer.
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90wpm is pretty f**king fast, dude.
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I get 50 WPM but i have always been a slow typer though i do type blind, maybe mechs will improve my speed.
Only practice will.
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I bottom out all the time. In fact, if I try to not bottom out it reduces my result by 10 wpm. It's easier on fingers and endurance. Also I found out that as the test goes on my bottoming out becomes greater and greater so I have to remind myself to stop banging on the keys because it ends up slowing me down.
+1 on that. I'm going to first give the dental bands a shot to see if that reduces the shock of bottoming out. If that doesn't work...double shot keys from a Cherry board. If that doesn't work...try a Steelseries Black somewhere. If that doesn't work...Red or Topre. There goes my tax refund.
RE: Speed. My bro can do 115 with a rubber dome in qwerty. Not sure how since he doesn't type any more than I do and I should have dvorak and a mechanical working towards my advantage. Both I think do more for comfort than speed in my case.
Oh and I tried some speed tests on my laptop today. I can do 110 pretty easily but I hit bottom pretty hard and the short key strokes makes me go "ahhhhh shock" when it hits hard, which causes more mistakes.
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First Post! (after months of lurking)
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You just need double-shot key caps!
Double-shots improve your typing speed up 50%!!!
Order key caps here:
Double shot replacements ROUND THREE (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13664)
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You just need double-shot key caps!
Double-shots improve your typing speed up 50%!!!
Order key caps here:
Double shot replacements ROUND THREE (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13664)
oh 7bit,=.... =]
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i was in the EXACT same position you were in... after all this lurking on GH i decided to go with browns and i my anticipation was off the roof.. but when I got the thing i found myself typing slower too
i found it's because coming straight from a rubber dome.. i was so used to putting so much pressure onto the keys or something and probably didn't give it enough time for the much softer brown switches..
so I bit the bullet and went with a topre 55g which i found was too stiff for me and hurt my fingers after a while
then i got a topre variable force and till this day it's my daily driver... i love it for gaming and typing (i type 105ish wpm)
i do love the blues too.. blues are my "work board" and the topre for all around great usage
i do wish i could try the browns again now that my fingers are probably used to the lighter switches of the topre / blues now
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never liked browns, the clears are much better!
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You just need double-shot key caps!
Double-shots improve your typing speed up 50%!!!
Order key caps here:
Double shot replacements ROUND THREE (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13664)
Mmm any chance out of the goodness of your heart you could throw 2 of them in an envelope and donate 'em to me for a test drive?
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so I bit the bullet and went with a topre 55g which i found was too stiff for me and hurt my fingers after a while
then i got a topre variable force and till this day it's my daily driver... i love it for gaming and typing (i type 105ish wpm)
One of the things I'm looking for is an actual map of which keys have which weight. Some thread said they're all 45g except for space and esc (something to that effect), but reading elsewhere it seems like there's zones on the alpha keys with diff weights. I'd rather have all 1 weight since I game and don't always use home-row etiquette.
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See the "All About Topre Wiki".
Thanks! That and http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html should be put in a pamphlet and air dropped over cities :D
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i have no problem typing quickly with cherry browns.. however, if i'm not bottoming out everytime, i'm certainly bottoming out a lot of the time. and learning to "float" for playing starcraft isn't really an option. would a scissor switch board maybe be a better option? what's a good model? can i find a tenkeyless?
edit: nevermind, just realized these are the new apple style keyboards. can't play starcraft on that, no siree. are cherry browns the best for me then or is there another type I should be looking at?
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i have no problem typing quickly with cherry browns.. however, if i'm not bottoming out everytime, i'm certainly bottoming out a lot of the time. and learning to "float" for playing starcraft isn't really an option. would a scissor switch board maybe be a better option? what's a good model? can i find a tenkeyless?
edit: nevermind, just realized these are the new apple style keyboards. can't play starcraft on that, no siree. are cherry browns the best for me then or is there another type I should be looking at?
I know iogear makes a lot of scissor boards. I banged on one for a few minutes a couple years ago and thought it felt really good. Not as shallow as a laptop key but not as deep as a rubber dome. The Logitech diNovo is also scissor but it got pretty poor reviews.
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i have no problem typing quickly with cherry browns.. however, if i'm not bottoming out everytime, i'm certainly bottoming out a lot of the time. and learning to "float" for playing starcraft isn't really an option. would a scissor switch board maybe be a better option? what's a good model? can i find a tenkeyless?
edit: nevermind, just realized these are the new apple style keyboards. can't play starcraft on that, no siree. are cherry browns the best for me then or is there another type I should be looking at?
There's nothing wrong with bottoming out when typing as long as it's relatively light (there's a difference between just tapping the bottom and pounding it). As far as gaming goes, don't worry about it. I love to game on my browns and I obviously pound the keys pretty hard when playing games, but in that case I still enjoy the keyboard a lot.
Of course it's all about preference and finding what you like.
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Amazon has both Reds http://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-2-NKR-ASCII-Switch/dp/B004OX4HWG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1301118905&sr=1-1 and Blacks http://www.amazon.com/Majestouch-Tenkeyless-Linear-Action-Keyboard/dp/B003047ZWY/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1301118905&sr=1-4 . And, this is the full keyboard page:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-alias=electronics&field-manufacturer=The%20Keyboard%20Company
It sounds like you may want to do some research on Blacks. They are more resistant to bottoming out then Reds and don't have "clack".
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paying attention i actually dont think i bottom out all the time when typing on browns.. maybe 80% and it's pretty light.
playing starcraft though is another story. i'm wondering if maybe i should take a look at getting maybe a unicomp quiet touch or keytronic or realforce board instead. i'm not particularly against the brown that i have, i've used it for like a year by now, and i was using cherry blues or scissor switches for a while before that (as quiet as possible since i share my office with another person).
engine: do you have a unicomp quiet touch? how loud is it?
edit: i'm starting to think the dental band mod might suit me just well... will look into finding the bands and will report back with how it turns out for sound, bottoming out & starcraft
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Rather than looking for a mechanical, as said earlier, you can go for a high quality scissor switch desktop board, which is of course the TypeMatrix 2030. You can find a Dvorak version. It's also an ergonomic choice as the keys are aligned not angled like they are in Kinesis Contours or Maltrons. They are cheap too...
http://www.typematrix.com/dvorak/
http://www.ergocanada.com/detailed_specification_pages/typematrix_typematrix_usb_ez_reach_keyboard_2009_version.html
First Post! (after months of lurking)
So, I've had a Majestouch with the Cherry Brown switches for the past year or so. Previously I'd only used Logitech rubber boards and previous to that ye-olde Dell Quietkeys. I was expecting the heavens to part and angels to sing given the price tag on this board, but I have to say i don't think I really like it very much. I'm looking for some feedback on my thoughts and some potential alternatives:
I type in Dvorak and with a rubber board I can maintain 100+ wpm. With the Majestouch I feel like I have to think a lot more about each stroke and my speed has gone down to about 90-95 wpm.
Why am I thinking more? Well, I think the keys are a bit too narrow, even for my slender fingers. If I'm not bang on center then I feel the edge of the key and that throws me off. The biggest issue I think though is the keys feel chattery, so I'm always thinking "did that key actually go down". Best way I can describe it is it feels like there's too much shock transferred through the keys when they hit bottom, and the keys almost feel paper thin.
I really do like the feel of the rubber domes. Nice sized keys, smooth response, good feedback. What I don't like though, and the reason why I went mechanical in the first place, is that rubber domes change their consistency on a daily basis. Brand new rubber domes are awesome...3 years out it's like finger wrestling.
Would Topre be the way to go? Any specific brands/models (I don't need function keys or USB ports but I do prefer black and with a numpad...oh and relatively compact footprint ie no 3 inch plastic borders)? Budget would probably max out at $300, and I wouldn't mind ordering international to expand selection availability.
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Rather than looking for a mechanical, as said earlier, you can go for a high quality scissor switch desktop board, which is of course the TypeMatrix 2030. You can find a Dvorak version. It's also an ergonomic choice as the keys are aligned not angled like they are in Kinesis Contours or Maltrons. They are cheap too...
http://www.typematrix.com/dvorak/
http://www.ergocanada.com/detailed_specification_pages/typematrix_typematrix_usb_ez_reach_keyboard_2009_version.html
I'd be interested in high quality scissor brands, but I don't believe in anything but the standard layout. Wavy upside down sideways curved rearranged keyboards have no appeal to me since I get no fatigue with the normal layout.
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http://www.amazon.com/Enermax-KB010U-B-Aurora-Lite-Keyboard/dp/B004O39FWS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1301344196&sr=8-4
I heard the Enermax Aurora is pretty nice for a scissor switch board
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blacks... period...
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I was with you there until you got to the Typematrix part.
Do you use one?
Not quite. All that I've written is based on mere imagination. I didn't use one but listened to some people's advice who are happily using the product, and have read lots of reviews in favour of it and etc. Besides, my using it doesn't justify my recommendation, but I just took the courage to make it. Combining my 28 years of experience in computing and having to type on all (almost) sorts of different boards (including switches with buckling springs, cherries, alps, plain and quality rubber domes, membranes and scissors, except topres and red cherries) and searching through maybe hundreds or thousands of pages on ergonomics for my carpal tunnel pains, I thought
1. TypeMatrix's scissor switches wouldn't at least be worse than any standard notebook's scissors
2. As I'm using a Kinesis Advantage Pro and happy with it, a vertical ergonomic layout rather than an angled one would be better
3. Not everyone has to be satisfied with a mechanical switch, and maybe it may be worse for those who are not accustomed with them. Sometimes some switches like cherry blacks may turn out to be stiffer than rubber and more tiring
4. As Qwerty is also known to be purposefully designed for slowing down the typists a hundred or so years ago and not accepted as an ergonomically good design a board that is natively Dvorak by design (in fact it is Colemak too with fn+f5) should do what he wanted.
Anyway, so much I said, he doesn't even care about the ergonomics, a decision that should be respected.
If anything about the TypeMatrix we don't know but you do please share it with us.
Cheers
I'd be interested in high quality scissor brands, but I don't believe in anything but the standard layout. Wavy upside down sideways curved rearranged keyboards have no appeal to me since I get no fatigue with the normal layout.
As a note, I'll be getting my Topre Realforce 86U in a a week or two... I hope I'll have a better experience coding with it than with my beloved Kinesis.
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Sit Rep: Ordered some 3/16" Orthodontic Bands - Medium off ebay. I think I'll appreciate the shortened stroke length and cushier landing but it might just feel too mushy. I'm also eying up some Doubleshot donor boards....
If none of this works then I'll maybe bite the bullet and give Topre a shot. At least I can resell it for 90% of cost if it's not for me, right?
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I had that problem when I first started using my new board. Before that I had to use my laptop keyboard which is a crappy scissor. Once you get used to it it is glorious.
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After giving the bands a shot, I don't think it improved the experience much at all. I still feel like the keys are paper thin (ie sort of resonate a bit when pressed), and the bands seemed to only make the tactile bump feel more intense. Cherry donor board for double shot keys is next...
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Rather than looking for a mechanical, as said earlier, you can go for a high quality scissor switch desktop board, which is of course the TypeMatrix 2030. You can find a Dvorak version. It's also an ergonomic choice as the keys are aligned not angled like they are in Kinesis Contours or Maltrons. They are cheap too...
http://www.typematrix.com/dvorak/
http://www.ergocanada.com/detailed_specification_pages/typematrix_typematrix_usb_ez_reach_keyboard_2009_version.html
That layout looks really bad for gaming.
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I don't think typing slower is a big deal, but the real questions are: are you typing more accurately? Are you typing more effectively? Are you typing more ergonomically as to avoid typing injuries? Are you simply enjoying it more?
I got this BlackWidow mechanical with Cherry Blues and it satisfies all those criteria for me. The glowing blue logo thing makes me smile, too. Oh, and if I were to time my typing, I'm pretty sure I type 10% faster but 5% less accurate on my free-after-rebate Memorex 1100 rubber dome keyboards.
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Took a typing test, once on a pair of rubber domes, once with my leopold tenkeyless brown. Scored a 74 wpm with the rubber domes, 91 with the Leopold...I think its cause my rubber domes require a lot of force for some reason, but i also made way fewer mistakes with the leopold.
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I see what you mean. It all depends on the person.
When I was taking typing tests the errors and backspaces deducted from your score. Sure you could type 150 WPM but the error rate would slam it down under 100. I scored 125 WPM on a Tom Thumb manual typewriter and 135 WPM on an electric (you know, the ones that don't keep up with your typing and freak you out). QWERTY really was designed to keep the hammers from jamming.
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So some thread bumping here, but since I'm the OP; whatev.
Tried a bunch of boards at Fry's.
The blacks I just hated. The keys were stiff as hell and it felt like my fingers were "slipping" without the tactile bump. You know...the feeling like when you step on a spot of ice and your foot goes out from under you. Because the keys were so stiff the stroke actually felt shorter than my browns. So by association I think Reds are out as well.
The blues I also disliked. Not only is it loud clicky, but the tactile bump feels so sharp compared to the browns that I could swear the key was hitting me back. It's not horrible to type on and I'd probably get used to it with time, but it wasn't mind blowing.
Tried a few laptop scissor boards. Most were meh because of the super short keystroke...some even shorter than my laptop. Some were ok feeling but the keys were compacted which makes typing quickly difficult. There were a few strange rubber domes with really thin and narrow domes that I quite enjoyed typing on.
Overall I think I like the overall feel of the rubberdomes still, but would like to get rid of some of the mushiness. So Topre looks like the way to go. Now I'm worried that the 55g weighting will feel too much like the blacks.
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Overall I think I like the overall feel of the rubberdomes still, but would like to get rid of some of the mushiness. So Topre looks like the way to go. Now I'm worried that the 55g weighting will feel too much like the blacks.
Looks like you are the perfect candidate for a cherry clear board.
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Yep. Still that cheap board with those running I bet.
Either that or going BS.
Either that or the right touch NMB keyboards off of ebay that are rubber domes, or a few other decent ones. I haven't tried any of these personally, because I like all the mechs I have great.
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You may want to give your browns one last chance by installing o-rings. They reduce the bottom-out harshness and noise, and give you a nice bounce that helps fast typing (unlike the mushy dental bands or soft-landing pads). I'm using o-rings on my Kinesis with MX reds, and I also used them on my older board with MX browns.
Best o-rings to get are medium-soft 50A durometer, 008 size. Part number 2418T114 at McMaster-Carr, $9 per pack of 125
http://www.mcmaster.com/#as568a-o-rings/
Make sure you push them all the way into each keycap.
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One other thing you might consider is a different set of keycaps with a lower profile that will fit Cherry switches. Maybe the Filco keycaps are just too tall (combined with the fairly deep travel of a brown switch) compared to your rubber domes.
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One other thing you might consider is a different set of keycaps with a lower profile that will fit Cherry switches. Maybe the Filco keycaps are just too tall (combined with the fairly deep travel of a brown switch) compared to your rubber domes.
For me, I think it's the deep switch travel and high profile caps that actually speed me up on my Filco w/ browns as compared to a Realforce. At least it feels that way. When I think of my "overall mental impression" of the two boards and why I feel smoother and faster on browns than 55g Topres it's the ability to smoothly roll between the deep, large caps on the Filco which really seems to make a difference. On the Topre I feel like I am striking one key and then the next. On the Filco I feel like I am flowing from key to key, pressing the next before I've released the previous.
Just an observation....
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That's what we call "booby feeling". Your fingers are literally flying over the keyboard. Make typing a sensual experience.
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My max wpm with rubber dome/scissor was around 120wpm, average 110. Now I average 120wpm with brown and have hit 150wpm max on typeracer website