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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: daniel.ocarroll on Sun, 27 March 2011, 18:05:33
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Hi (again) guys,
Sorry to post two threads in such close succession, but I ran a search for 'light touch' on geekhack.org, and found nothing, so I guess there's room for it to be discussed.
Following on from what I was saying in the last thread, where I was looking foradvice on a first mechanical, I think I've figured out that what I'm looking for, besides sturdiness, is a 'light touch' keyboard, that is one with minimal resistance to engage a full key-press. I've had a few rubber domes that have been absolute joys to type with, because the keys depressed so easily, but can only seem to find relatively 'spongy' feeling things in the local PC World. I also realized (inadvertently) that I was harbouring a good old Model M in my outhouse. Tried it out and while I see what people get about the very sturdy built construction I don't find it as easy to type on as some of the very light boards that I'm talking about.
Sooo, any mechanical come to mind for that criterion?
Thanks in advance,
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I second the Reds.
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Third for the reds.
You got the touch.
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Reds are probably your best bet, if you want some tactility maybe go for a board with browns.
Only other option would be one of the lighter Topre switches, however that would be a more expensive solution.
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Reds
or Browns if you wanna little tactility
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crossing fingers that Topre releases an all-35g ANSI Realforce sometime
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the OP is totally on the money. Light switches are the bee's knees.
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Wow the Red Fever is contagious!
Browns are almost as light, with the added bonus of some (very gentle) feedback. Both are much, much lighter than a Model M.
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I likemy Filco MX Red but I still prefer my 86U for strictly typing.
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Reds! hard to get used to coming from BS.
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Great stuff guys, that seems like a pretty strong consensus for the red switches!
Now for the annoying follow-on: can anyone recommend a good cheap mechanical with those lucrative red switches!? As I'm in Ireland I'm looking to order through keyboardco.com, but would pay expensive delivery just to get something really decent.
Really looking forward to buying something. This crappy Apple aluminium board (although I'm sure there are people who would consider this good) is actually limiting my time on the computer. It's just so damn squishy and hard to type with (after a while).
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Also, can you just clarify what you mean by 'tactility'? 'Travel' and ... eh just travel is the only word of keyboard jargon I've learned so far!
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In the case of keyboard switches tactility refers to any non-linear friction element in the switch travel. Think of it as a speed bump in an otherwise smooth road. brown's have a little bump, blues have a bigger bump and make a click noise too. The main idea as I gather it is that this tactile point is aligned with the activation point of the switch so you know you successfully pressed the switch without having to bottom out the switch.
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The main idea as I gather it is that this tactile point is aligned with the activation point of the switch so you know you successfully pressed the switch
Yes.
without having to bottom out the switch.
Not necessarily. It's there mainly for activation confirmation. Over time, people might develop a feel for the tactile bump where they use it to determine where to let off the switch. In my case, my fingers are just trained to press a certain distance before letting up. My brain just processes the tactile bump as activation confirmation.
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Thanks, that explanation makes sense.
Just one thing: how do I tell if a keyboard is mechanical?
I just had a look round my friend's office and found a Compaq SDM 45040UL that feels good but I have no way of knowing if it's mechanical (or not) bar putting it into Google (from which it wouldn't appear to be), or lifting off one of the keys, which I'm certainly not going to do!
I heard there are a few mechanical Compaqs.. I guess it's just a case of knowing which ones are mechanical and assuming the rest are rubber dome? What's leading me to believe it may be is that it feels really solid, and is definitely a few years old. There seems to be a pronounced downwards trend in keyboard build quality as time goes on.
But I would assume that you conoisseurs would be able to tell just from touch!?
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But I would assume that you conoisseurs would be able to tell just from touch!?
Most of the time. :-)
The stroke of rubber dome keyboards is often a large bump at or near the beginning followed by the landing. The large initial resistance invites the typists to press harder, so that when you are past the bump you press the key to the bottom (called "bottoming out"), where the actuation point is. The worse rubber domes give very little tactile feedback and are mushy at the bottom.
A mechanical switch will allow you to press the key down a mm or two before you can feel any tactile feedback - if there is any at all, but if you get it, then it is distinct. The actuation point is often near the middle of the stroke -- at (or near) where any tactile feedback would occur.
Most rubber domes have a very soft landing -- sometimes a very mushy one. Most mechanicals have a hard landing.
There are exceptions to both, though. For instance, the "Cream ALPS" switch in Apple Extended Keyboard II is mechanical but feels a whole lot like a better rubber dome keyboard. There is a rubber dome keyboard made by NMB which was sold under many different brands (SGI, DEC, HP, Compaq...) that is light and bottoms out hard.
Then there are the "capacitative foam and foil" keyboards, but they are very rare. They can have a spring or a rubber cup, actuate in the middle of the stroke, and are always mushy at the bottom.
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A mechanical switch will allow you to press the key down a mm or two before you can feel any tactile feedback - if there is any at all, but if you get it, then it is distinct. The actuation point is often near the middle of the stroke -- at (or near) where any tactile feedback would occur.
This would be the best way to tell. If the key activates before you reach the bottom, it's more than likely not a rubber dome 'board. There are some old-school, capacitive 'boards out there (foam and foil) that feel like crap, but may actuate before the switch bottoms out, but I don't think this 'board would be one of them. In fact, I don't think there are too many Compaq mechanicals out there, so I would bet this is a rubber dome 'board.
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Thanks guys, just did a test in Notepad, and I see what you mean. If you play very close attention you notice that the keystroke registers just a tiny bit before the key actually 'bottoms out'.
I guess the Compaq I was referring to is just one of those better feeling rubber-domes. Am waiting on payment to come in from a client and as soon as that's in I'm buying a red-switch Filco off keyboardco.com, or else a brown switch if the red ones are too expensive (heard that's the second lightest). Cheers for the help, I know where to look next time there's anything whatsoever to know about keyboards!
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Folks, some major news here, I've dreaming about MX Reds on my kinesis for a while, and brought it to Kinesis years back and again recently, and guess what, they ordered a batch from Cherry and will make a small run of keyboards to be called Advantage LF (Linear Feel or Low Force). I can hardly wait, the browns just seem vague/gritty to me, and aren't soft enough for my taste. Reds (or Torpe, sigh) would be perfect. And the electronic click of those contoured keyboards will pair REALLY well to provide feedback for the Red linear switches. I wonder if I should start a thread about this development to alert Kinesis users !
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Dunno *how* they ordered them. By fax? :-) All I know is Kinesis said it might take a couple months because the switches "will come from the factory". They will also sell key wells for folks who want to upgrade their existing contoured keyboards. In any case, I'll be getting 2 of these keyboards, possibly more to shrink wrap, seal with wax, and put in vaults at different continents, because it could be a very limited edition for all I know.
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Cloud of boobs. Queue the memes!
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gonna test next whether the Ghetto Red measures the same as the Real Red.
While you're at it, could you please measure a Brown as well? Wondering how many grams each of these switches gets in a real life side-by-side measurement!
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Hmm, I have found variation from coin to coin, so a side-by-side comparison on the same day, with the same coins, and in the same longitude/latitude would be more reliable. I'm hearing both red and brown register at 45gramms, but in other posts I'm reading they have the same spring minus the tactile bump of the brown, so it doesn't sound very plausible that they would register at the same force.... Unless the red requires more travel than the brown before it registers, it should require less measurable force.
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Ripster - could you do a four way compare? (add blue/brown spring with red slider, and red spring with black slider).
sordna - gotta watch out for those localized gravitational variations!
(http://www.esa.int/images/Goce-Poster_5000x5000_01_L.jpg) (http://www.esa.int/images/24_L,3.jpg)
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i was going to ask you to fill me in on this new measuring system that you guys have but I read the linked post.
My job now is to find a 5g coin in our currency here - the Euro!
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Speaking of mods imma gonna test next whether the Ghetto Red measures the same as the Real Red.
I'm down with that.
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can someone tell me if the reds feel about the same pressure as the 30g topre pinky keys?
and someone with browns.. are the reds significantly lighter than browns? or hardly noticeable?
i know theres a force chart in the wiki..but i found the pressure in actuality "seems" completely different
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What's the cheapest red board? I kinda want to buy one just to see what reds feel like compared to my browns in my xarmor.
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The Poker.
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i was going to ask you to fill me in on this new measuring system that you guys have but I read the linked post.
My job now is to find a 5g coin in our currency here - the Euro!
Well...the 1 Euro coin should weight an exact 7.5 g.
Everything else is sort of funky. 2 cent piece weighs 3.06g...