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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: HighNoon on Mon, 28 March 2011, 03:06:49

Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: HighNoon on Mon, 28 March 2011, 03:06:49: I'm tired of my BlackWidow, and I want to get a different board. I don't know if it's me or the Cherry MX Blues, but I bottom out ALL THE TIME. Granted, I've only had the keyboard for about two weeks. Maybe not bottoming out is a learned habit... if I bottom out all the time would I be better off with MX Blacks?

Two things I've decided I need to have in a new board are:

1. Media keys
2. Detachable USB cable

So far the only boards I can find that meet my requirements are the following:

1. Ducky 9008 Overclock.net edition
2. Leopold Tenkeyless from EK (assuming I can use software to create media keys)
3. Noppoo Choc Mini

- My issue with the Ducky from OCN is that the first round of boards already sold out, and it's probably going to be a while before they have another round of sales.

- I have a similar issue with the Leopold. I'm skeptical about preordering because I know a LOT of other people have already placed a preorder. If I order a Leopold I don't want to have to wait around for a couple months before it comes. However, I've noticed that the current price ($99) is listed as a "Pre-order price". Does this mean that the price is going to go up when they actually get stock?

- The Noppoo Choc Mini seems like a nice board at a reasonable price, but I'm skeptical about playing SC2 on it. Does anyone here use a Choc Mini or something similar for gaming? If so, how well does it work?

As a side note, does anyone have a recommendation for a program that will allow me to create media keys?

Thanks!
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: TickleMeElmo on Mon, 28 March 2011, 03:10:17: If you are bottoming out on every hit with MX Blues I don't think it's going to get any better with Browns or Reds since both have significantly less actuation pressure than the Blues.... just something to consider before making a purchase that will not solve your issue.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: HighNoon on Mon, 28 March 2011, 03:15:16: Thanks for the quick reply. I realize that Browns/Reds require less force than blues, but I'd still like to see how they feel (especially browns).

I feel like my tendency to bottom out very frequently may change over time as I get used to my new board. The sound/feel of bottoming out doesn't bother me, it's just that I know it's not a good habit.

Does anyone else have a similar experience of bottoming out very frequently after switching from a rubber dome to a cherry mx board?
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Will on Mon, 28 March 2011, 03:40:17: I still bottom out on some keys when I type, I also type pretty weird, not standard at least. I only have about two years of experience with mechanicals (my first was an ABS m1) as well. I won my Blackwidow Ultimate from a contest but I'm probably going to end up selling it and getting a Leo. I hate glossy finishes that attract fingerprints, on something that will have hands all over it 100% of the time it makes no sense. Also, the macro keys mess up my fingers sometimes.

But yeah, don't think about bottoming out, soon you'll just start avoiding it naturally, at least in my case. Changing your switch won't necessarily help, I think it's actually harder to bottom out blues than browns anyway.

Easy solution for media keys is just to put an alt-modifier on a function key or any other key, it's technically the same thing you just have to set it up as a global hotkey in your preferred media player.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: nolo on Mon, 28 March 2011, 07:20:45: Quote from: HighNoon;319935

As a side note, does anyone have a recommendation for a program that will allow me to create media keys?

Hi, try Linux: xmodmap (http://www.xfree86.org/4.2.0/xmodmap.1.html) ,Windows: autohotkey (http://www.autohotkey.com/)
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 07:30:05: Quote from: HighNoon;319935

1. Ducky 9008 Overclock.net edition
2. Leopold Tenkeyless from EK (assuming I can use software to create media keys)
3. Noppoo Choc Mini

Get a 9008 w/PBT caps from PCHome (check the Worldwide buying links wiki under Taiwan). It's about the same price as the OCN version, but you don't get that sweet package deal with the wrist rest, but you can buy them at PCHome, too. I have the OCN Ducky and a G2 on it's way from PCHome. This is the best full-size Cherry 'board on the market right now, IMO. The Noppoo is nice, too, and I use it as my carry-around 'board for my laptop (it's just a little on the ugly side).
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Eclairz on Mon, 28 March 2011, 07:35:51: Quote from: Will;319942
But yeah, don't think about bottoming out, soon you'll just start avoiding it naturally, at least in my case. Changing your switch won't necessarily help, I think it's actually harder to bottom out blues than browns anyway.

Well IBM Model M keyboards are a real pain to bottom out but aren't designed for gaming though.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: BucklingSpring on Mon, 28 March 2011, 08:29:45: Quote from: Eclairz;319992
Well IBM Model M keyboards are a real pain to bottom out but aren't designed for gaming though.

Not designed for gamer but works well if you don't mind the heavy switches, King Kong footprint and jackahammer quiet.

I didn't care all the above for many years.

The M with all the love I have for them didn't stopped me from bottoming out.

Since I'm not the best typist and really don't mind the BO... I'll let others to provide advices on linear vs tactile vs bottoming out.

If not mistaken, I recall a recent thread where Ripster was gliding on red MX. Red = Light switches, linear and not bottoming out on them.

Besides the BO problems, is there anything else you don't like about your BW?
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Eric5676 on Mon, 28 March 2011, 09:37:22: Quote from: itlnstln;319988
I have the OCN Ducky and a G2 on it's way from PCHome. This is the best full-size Cherry 'board on the market right now, IMO.

You're one of several regulars I look to around here for advice so when I see one of you throw down an opinion like that I want to rack your brain. What do you like about it that much?
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 09:54:30: Short list (in order of my personal preferece):

-PBT caps
-Shortcut keys
-Media keys
-Removable cable

The PBT caps kick ass, hands down. If you already have a Filco, you could just grab a set from Imsto's group order. The other pros are a little more subjective. I, for one, really like the shortcut keys as am constantly bringing up the calculator and "Computer" in Windows and they make doing so convenient without grabbing the mouse or setting up shortcuts in AutoHotkey. The media keys are cool, too, but a little inconvenient since they are second-layer keys, but they are still there and other 'boards don't have them. The removable cable is cool, too, but not really all that useful unless you have other keyboards that you swap around with removable cables as well. What I really like about having a removable cable for, though, is replacing the cable with one of an appropriate length for my desk, but that's more about aesthetics than function.

The Leopold has a removable cable and PBT caps, but lacks the other features, and the Filco has none of that, but you can get the PBT caps from the group buy. That said, you can just buy the 9008 and get all of it in one package. I would suggest spending the extra cash and getting a G2 version with the engraved caps, but the standard 9008 is nice, too (I am using the OCN edition right now). Unfortunately, they don't have a tenkeyless in the 9008 quality tier, so this really only applies to those that like full-size 'boards like me.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Eric5676 on Mon, 28 March 2011, 10:03:19: Quote from: itlnstln;320054
Short list (in order of my personal preferece):

-PBT caps
-Shortcut keys
-Media keys
-Removable cable

The PBT caps kick ass, hands down. If you already have a Filco, you could just grab a set from Imsto's group order.

That's what I need to do for my Rosewill which is basically a Filco clone for the most part. The fading is really getting sad. I'll have to see if I can intuit my way through that group order setup so I don't make a mistake.

EDIT:
His thread looks easy to follow. Those look great!

Quote
The other pros are a little more subjective. I, for one, really like the shortcut keys as am constantly bringing up the calculator and "Computer" in Windows and they make doing so convenient without grabbing the mouse or setting up shortcuts in AutoHotkey. The media keys are cool, too, but a little inconvenient since they are second-layer keys, but they are still there and other 'boards don't have them. The removable cable is cool, too, but not really all that useful unless you have other keyboards that you swap around with removable cables as well. What I really like about having a removable cable for, though, is replacing the cable with one of an appropriate length for my desk, but that's more about aesthetics than function.

The Leopold has a removable cable and PBT caps, but lacks the other features, and the Filco has none of that, but you can get the PBT caps from the group buy. That said, you can just buy the 9008 and get all of it in one package. I would suggest spending the extra cash and getting a G2 version with the engraved caps, but the standard 9008 is nice, too (I am using the OCN edition right now). Unfortunately, they don't have a tenkeyless in the 9008 quality tier, so this really only applies to those that like full-size 'boards like me.

http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAH0X-A53717984&c=A05&tm=u

?

I notice the very helpful buyer's guide doesn't cover a few of those "extra options" that particular selection has.

What Cherry MX switches do these things use (if applicable?) Dumb question probably but I can't tell.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 10:07:39: Those would be the right keys. If you get the "Chinese," there would still be English characters, but also the Chinese legends. The English-only are sold out. The "no Stereotype" version are blanks. You can get the 9008 in browns (tea-axis), blues or blacks. Both 'boards I have (or will have) have browns.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Evil_Spork on Mon, 28 March 2011, 10:24:53: I've got a Choc Mini with "tea axis" (read: MX browns) and its a fine keyboard. I like it a lot at work where I move my keyboard around a LOT since the board is so bloody small.

Having opened the Choc Mini, I think making your own detachable usb cable would not be very hard to do.

I use it for Starcraft 2 now and then and it works fine. I found I had a lot of trouble getting my touch typing of keys right since until very recently I have played exclusively on my laptop keyboard, thus the key layout and spacing is slightly different. Ignoring my muscle memory I think it worked fine, albeit a bit loud since I was smashing bottom with every hotkey spam.

1234123412341234123412341234123412341234123412341234123412341234

No one seemed to pay any attention to me at the gaming bar with my clickity clack. Even considering the keyboards they provide are the absolute cheapest, worst quality, most un-tactile squishy piece-of-**** rubber dome wastes-of-plastic I've ever experienced, my clicky-ness was not noticed. Maybe I was just noticing it since I was listening for it.

Do note the layout of the bottom right of the Noppoo. The right control and shift keys are a little strange, so take that into account. If you're used to a laptop keyboard layout it may not take much to adjust to. I found it a little strange to get used to using control+backspace with my thumb+ring finger rather than pinky+middle finger as I would if the control was at the far right bottom of the board.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: pcunite on Mon, 28 March 2011, 10:43:32: Can Filco boards not have media keys provided via software?
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 10:51:27: Not this one:

(http://ec1img.pchome.com.tw/pic/v1/data/item/201101/D/C/A/H/0/X/DCAH0X-A53914259000_4d4252f1c8028)
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Chobopants on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:00:33: For bottoming out...I just wouldn't worry about it. You'll either continue to bottom out or naturally start to type less heavy. I've had my Filco brown for a few months now and still bottom out, just not as bad. I don't think I'll ever NOT graze the PCB with the keys and actually think it feels really weird 100% floating. You'll settle into whatever feels natural for you, don't stress about typing how people recommend.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: RiGS on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:19:24: Quote
Filcos are the rare keyboard that looks BETTER in person than in the pics

I've thought the same about the Noppoo.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: HighNoon on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:23:27: Thanks to everyone for the replies!

That Ducky from PCHome looks really nice, but I've decided that I want to try a tenkeyless board, so that option is out. However, in the Ducky OCN thread they mentioned that in their new shipment they would be getting some tenkeyless... so who knows.

I contacted sales@EK last night and a guy named Brian told me that they would be getting their Leopold shipment either today or tomorrow, and that if I pre-ordered now I would be waiting 4-5 business days before my board would ship. He also said to expect a "hefty" price increase after they actually get stock, in order to mitigate the wave of orders on the day the pre-order is lifted.

So I ended up going with a Leopold Tenkeyless MX Brown from EK. I like the blues of my Blackwidow, but I can see where the click would get annoying after a while. I'm very excited to try out browns.

BucklingSpring, you asked if I had any other reasons for disliking my BlackWidow besides my bottoming out problem. The answer is yes, yes I do. I HATE the glossy finish, and I do not understand for the life of me why a keyboard manufacturer *cough* Razer/Das *cough* would use a glossy plastic for something that comes into contact with human hands 24/7. I also hate the fact that my backspace key is very hard to press compared to all the other keys. I don't know if it's just my board or if it's a global problem, but it is extremely annoying.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Chobopants on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:25:25: Must just be me but all those seemingly random scattered lighted keys and that ugly Ducky glyph really turn me off.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Chobopants on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:27:12: Quote from: ripster;320104
That one is easy to look better in real life because they sure don't look good in the pics.

Did you know sewer water is 99.9% pure?
Show Image
(http://polpo.org/noppoo/IMG_2933.jpg)

Oy, that's painful to look at.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: HighNoon on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:32:30: Quote from: itlnstln;320054
The Leopold has a removable cable and PBT caps, but lacks the other features, and the Filco has none of that, but you can get the PBT caps from the group buy.

Does the Leopold really have PBT caps? EK's website doesn't say anything...
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Evil_Spork on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:40:09: Quote from: ripster;320106
Good news. Except that hefty price increase part.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15741&stc=1&d=1299179680)

****. Does this mean I have to order a Leopold today?
I was hoping to put it off for several months.

If he was able to sell them at $99, but can't he keep doing that.. I think a hefty price increase will only result in less sales. :(
I know he will certainly be losing my purchase.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:43:22: Quote from: ripster;320114
I think the Leopolds are lasered ABS with spooge infill. The spooge, like mine, looks higher quality than average.

I thought sixty had said they were PBT, but I might be wrong. I'm having a hard time finding the thread where he gave a quick run down on the Leopold.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Evil_Spork on Mon, 28 March 2011, 11:46:29: Quote from: ripster;320121
Lol. Welcome to Good Marketing!!!

Better get moving to beat that April 1 date.
Show Image
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5056/5490535937_4451d9d95c_z.jpg)

I'm not sure it's worth it really. Being what I would classify as "not rich" the $125 Noppoo has already put a hurting on my wallet. Another $125 for a keyboard that will either get very little use, or put the Choc Mini into an early retirement just seems... excessive. =-\
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: HighNoon on Mon, 28 March 2011, 12:38:16: Quote from: kalrykh;320148
I contacted sales@EK last night and a guy named Brian told me that they would be getting their Leopold shipment either today or tomorrow...heh. Brian is EK :P Further, why do you care so much about bottoming out? Unless you have really sensitive fingers and bottoming out hurts, it's really not a big deal whether you bottom out or not.

I guess I was under the impression that bottoming out all the time is not a good way to type, and kinda defeats the purpose of having a mechanical board. Bottoming out does not hurt me haha.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 12:42:38: Bottoming out hard repetitively (like you would on a rubber dome keyboard) can be bad for you, but bottoming out, in general, isn't. The point of mechanical keyboards is that they simply feel nicer than rubber domes. I don't bottom out much anymore, but I don't try; that can actually be worse if not more fatiguing. I have just developed a light enough touch that it doesn't occur. Sometimes, though, when I get to typing hard, I will start bottoming out, but due to the force curve of Cherrys, the bottom out is nowhere near as hard.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: Chobopants on Mon, 28 March 2011, 12:53:41: Quote from: HighNoon;320152
I guess I was under the impression that bottoming out all the time is not a good way to type, and kinda defeats the purpose of having a mechanical board. Bottoming out does not hurt me haha.

If you're SLAMMING the keys with excessive force then yes, it could be a problem. However, just grazing the PCB is really just a preference thing. You may be slightly faster if you can type without using the "bounce" off of the PCB as a trigger to get your fingers moving to the next key but I'd wager not by much. I average around 120-130wpm on Type Racer with bottoming out so...meh.

I actually think some guitar principles could apply. Wasted energy is wasted force and time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_picking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_picking)

And then you can type like Frank Gambale plays guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH8EbI89xgE&t=1m25s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH8EbI89xgE&t=1m25s)
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 12:59:56: Quote from: kalrykh;320159
Bottoming out is fine :P It might cause RSI down the road, but so will masturbation. I sure as hell ain't giving that up.

Well said.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: RiGS on Mon, 28 March 2011, 14:08:56: I don't think that's possible to get RSI from masturbation.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 28 March 2011, 14:09:42: It depends on how repetitive it is.
Title: Replacing BlackWidow with New, Better Mech Board
Post by: gilgam on Mon, 28 March 2011, 15:44:39: Quote from: RiGS;320188
I don't think that's possible to get RSI from masturbation.

You'll get PSI* way before RSI

* Penis Stress Injury :-)