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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 16:07:13

Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 16:07:13: Does anyone know if there's a way to make the stabilizers in this thing feel more like my Filco's? Not only are they squeaky, but also mushy. It wasn't bothering me too much until today when a fellow coworker got his Filco Brown Tenkeyless (inspired by my Leo) and, side by side, it just feels sooooo much better (the Filco).

If this isn't something that is easy to fix or at least tweak, I'm strongly considering grabbing a Linear R and selling this guy (ok probably still keeping it but that's what I'll tell the girlfriend). It's not HORRIBLE but it is clearly not as crisp as the Filco.

Thanks.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 16:32:23: Damn ok, thanks. Maybe they'll wear in a bit. Also hoping that after I toss the doubleshots on there maybe some of the squeaking will go away.

The difference between the single switch keys and the keys with stabilizers really is jarring. It's just "crisp crisp crisp crisp MUSH MUSH crisp" and my speed drops dramatically whenever I have to use shift, enter, or backspace.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: drsauced on Thu, 07 April 2011, 16:48:33: I've noticed this too on the Leopold, but it is actually better than the Deck Legend I have, so take comfort in knowing that the Leo is better than the average Cherry.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 16:53:30: Ouch. Yeah the worst part is that I'm a right shift user and that one is WAY worse than the left shift. Who knows, maybe because I'm using right shift so much more that's why it's worse. Blech.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 17:21:36: Quote from: kalrykh;326342
I used lithium grease on mine to stop the squeaking. Sounds and feels fine now.

Oh good advice! Just bought it on Amazon. My right wrist actually hurts from how squishy the right shift key is now. It's bad.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 07 April 2011, 17:26:03: Quote from: kalrykh;326342
I used lithium grease on mine to stop the squeaking. Sounds and feels fine now.

What part of the stablizer have you lubed?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: nvarsj on Thu, 07 April 2011, 17:36:12: Quote from: Chobopants;326327
Ouch. Yeah the worst part is that I'm a right shift user and that one is WAY worse than the left shift. Who knows, maybe because I'm using right shift so much more that's why it's worse. Blech.

I rarely use right shift (so didn't notice this at first), but it is noticeably mushier than the rest of the keys. Spacebar feels fine. But right shift is bad. I guess they didn't properly lube everything.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 18:11:08: Very happy to hear that it's hopefully just a lube problem. I really like the overall feel of the board minus these squishy keys. Hoping that it feels 95% as good as a Filco once I toss my otaku doubleshots on here (whenever that round 3 happens) and lube those keys instead of 80% like now.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: NeverDie on Thu, 07 April 2011, 18:24:03: I hope I don't get the problem as well, but it's nice to know that I can fix it at least if I run into it.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 07 April 2011, 18:34:17: Quote from: kalrykh;326381
20 minutes later it started squeaking again, so I put an assload more in :P It doesnt squeak anymore haha.

I HATE squeaky assloads!
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 07 April 2011, 19:02:37: Quote from: kalrykh;326399
im sorry. did you say otaku doubleshots? why would you have doubleshot blank keys.

Haha, I just mean the PBT group buy keys.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Lpb45 on Thu, 07 April 2011, 20:01:13: Quote from: keyboardlover;326396
I HATE squeaky assloads!

I think your a liar
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 07 April 2011, 21:09:58: Quote from: Lpb45;326425
I think your a liar

You are correct :(
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Fri, 08 April 2011, 01:24:21: Yeah, wrist started hurting BAD by the end of the day. Just tossed my Filco into my bag to bring to work until I can resolve this issue.

Might bring in some nickels too to RipO it out of curiosity.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Quest- on Fri, 08 April 2011, 01:31:55: (http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/7049031/My-backsace-squeaked-It-wont-be-doing-that-anymore.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Murder-Boy)
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: bytemeavaj on Fri, 08 April 2011, 05:35:00: Quote from: Quest-;326590
Show Image
(http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/7049031/My-backsace-squeaked-It-wont-be-doing-that-anymore.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Murder-Boy)

What the hell is a backsace?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Quest- on Fri, 08 April 2011, 06:02:09: Me trying not to bottom out, and overdoing it.

Tool.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: MrSneis on Sat, 09 April 2011, 16:24:01: Rats. My backspace key started getting squeaky... and how.

Removing the "back space" key reveals one brown switch and two black nubs on either side, seems the metal stabilizer bar is under these nubs. I ended up dabbing a big glob on white lithium grease ($2.99 at autozone) on the end of a needle and applying to the exposed metal parts, seems to have helped greatly.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: BababooeyHTJ on Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:33:00: Is this a common problem on the cherry style stabilizers? I don't remember this being an issue on my Ducky but maybe I just got lucky.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: BababooeyHTJ on Sun, 10 April 2011, 08:57:35: On the 9008? Care to point those out? Other than the crappy legs. I prefer a smaller keyboard so I went with a filco.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Sun, 10 April 2011, 13:42:01: Quote from: Chobopants;326292
Does anyone know if there's a way to make the stabilizers in this thing feel more like my Filco's? Not only are they squeaky, but also mushy. It wasn't bothering me too much until today when a fellow coworker got his Filco Brown Tenkeyless (inspired by my Leo) and, side by side, it just feels sooooo much better (the Filco).

If this isn't something that is easy to fix or at least tweak, I'm strongly considering grabbing a Linear R and selling this guy (ok probably still keeping it but that's what I'll tell the girlfriend). It's not HORRIBLE but it is clearly not as crisp as the Filco.
Thanks.

That was the only disspointment for me on the Leos.
I have that problem too with the "non-lettered" keys, like Shift/Ctrl/Back Space/Enter/ etc, being "mushy". I could'nt think of a better way to describe them except for that they feel like a whole other set of keys on the board. The "letter" keys are crisp/clean actuation, while the "other" keys mentioned, just kind of mush down w/no apparent actuation point but instead some resistance that feels a bit grainy/mushy. Is this a flaw or is this what the Leos are all about?
I want to note that I have both Browns and Blues Leos and the "secondary" keys, like Ctrl/Back Space/Enter,etc have the same weird feel, regardless of the switch type.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Sun, 10 April 2011, 15:30:03: So...I got impatient. I was stupid and bought Lithium Grease last week off of Amazon but trying to play Starcraft last night on my Realforce bothered me so much (nearly invisible key legends are bad for playing Starcraft at night) I walked to work, grabbed my Leo, then stopped at a hardware store and bought some Lithium Grease there (and for less than I paid at Amazon, going to see if I can return it).

First, some pictures, everyone loves pictures:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5028/5606878345_4f2f42eb58.jpg)
I removed the keys, following the advice on Ripster's key pulling guide (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12649).

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5607463290_a961497f94.jpg)
Using a toothpick I dabbed some of the grease in there as best I could.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5186/5607463242_ea0459e700.jpg)
After not being satisfied with the results, I took the key back off and SMOTHERED the entire stabilizer in grease.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5030/5607463328_9672901209.jpg)
All back together again. That's my red Filco key from EK, how's that for color accuracy. o_O

Anyway, results:

The squeaking is gone. Yay!
The mushiness, however, is not. Not at all. Boo.

I'm sad to say that, even with copious amounts of Lithium Grease ALL over the stabilizers, the backspace and right shift keys are still painfully mushy. My right ring finger tendon still aches a bit from the few days that I used this board a week ago and I'm afraid that the little difference that the grease made is not going to be enough.

It makes me very sad as all the normal keys are fun as hell to type on. So smooth and crisp. I'm typing this post on the Leo and every time I mis-type I fear hitting backspace, it's that bad. I think it's probably fine for most people but my right wrist is my bad one (guitar + rock climbing tendon injuries) and having those keys be the mushy ones is unacceptable for me. The worst part is the left shift is much better but I don't really use that one (though I can if I consciously focus on it).

So my plans right now are to keep this board at home for playing Starcraft (because I'm using the Filco at work) until the Linear R comes in and then decide if I even want to keep it. I'd probably let it go for $50 or something if anyone were interested. Less than 50 hours of use on it so far and it comes pre-lubed so the squeaking is gone.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: CephalicCarnage on Sun, 10 April 2011, 15:50:00: Thanks for the pics.

Sucks that you're having such a headache with those stabilizers.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Sun, 10 April 2011, 16:12:37: So after just typing a couple posts here on GH my tendon immediately started acting up again. I'm not sure that it's directly the amount of force required to actuate the key but the awkwardness.

Played through some challenges in SC2 to try it out in a game, have to say it performed VERY well. Blues ARE good for RTS games, just like I thought.

Anyway, this is where the board is going outside of SC2/HoN:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5607658756_f968656c24.jpg)
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: AgentHeavy on Sun, 10 April 2011, 16:22:41: Quote from: Chobopants;328104
So after just typing a couple posts here on GH my tendon immediately started acting up again. I'm not sure that it's directly the amount of force required to actuate the key but the awkwardness.

Played through some challenges in SC2 to try it out in a game, have to say it performed VERY well. Blues ARE good for RTS games, just like I thought.

Anyway, this is where the board is going outside of SC2/HoN:
Show Image
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5607658756_f968656c24.jpg)

It's wierd you don't have the same problem with the RF 103. The 55g all version is stiff !
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: NimbleRabit on Sun, 10 April 2011, 16:24:24: SC2 and HoN are pretty much the only games I play, what a coincidence! It's too bad you're having problems, I personally love my Leopold when gaming - it's nice to have such a crisp feeling to the keys and I find double tapping to be significantly easier (browns).
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Sun, 10 April 2011, 16:45:38: Quote from: AgentHeavy;328109
It's wierd you don't have the same problem with the RF 103. The 55g all version is stiff !

Yeah that's why I don't think its specifically the force, but the fact that I have to "mush" those keys down. If I want to quickly 3-4x tap backspace there's never any crisp actuation, just kinda goofy sludge.

Quote from: NimbleRabit
SC2 and HoN are pretty much the only games I play, what a coincidence! It's too bad you're having problems, I personally love my Leopold when gaming - it's nice to have such a crisp feeling to the keys and I find double tapping to be significantly easier (browns).

Yeah, I already have a Filco Brown that I bought specifically for gaming and it's pretty much perfect. I bought the Leo Blue to use at work. Ironically, now my Filco is at work and my Leo is here just for SC2/HoN. Meh.

I'm very curious as to what I end up doing with the Linear R.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyb_gr on Sun, 10 April 2011, 16:47:22: How do those Leopold stabilizers compare to Cherry ones?

With the Cherry ones, the mushiness is so far beyond the tactile point that it doesn't bother me at all.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Sun, 10 April 2011, 17:13:12: Chobopants,
Have you considered contacting EK support?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: RiGS on Sun, 10 April 2011, 17:50:30: I suggest you guys to buy a Powerball (http://www.powerballs.com/), and move your wrists time to time(every hour).
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Sun, 10 April 2011, 19:07:20: Quote from: ripster;328163
Hmmm... a bit overkill on the grease. At some point the viscous effects start kicking in.

Lubing, assloads, and packing it in - ewwww.....
Show Image
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5186/5607463242_ea0459e700.jpg)

I'm pretty sure they are standard Cherry Corp supplied stabilizers like the ones on Duckys. G99-XXXX "Leveling Mechanism Kits". Not much EK can say other than putting a toothpick dab of grease on them.

Yeah, I realize that how much I put on there is overkill and basically pointless but I tried it with a sane amount first and it didn't do what I wanted.

Basically, I need all of my keys to have a similar feel. On both my Filco and Realforce all the keys have a very similar action. On this Leopold it's like I have 5/6 really nice keys and 1/6 sloppy mush that I don't want.

I thought about contacting EK support but don't think there's much I can do about it. Seeing the mechanism and how simple it is I really don't think there's anything else that can be done. I'm just really picky and these keys feel like they come from a lower quality board than the rest. I spend this much on keyboards to have a top of the line, consistent experience. I'm not getting that here.

Honestly, if it wasn't causing my tendons to act up I'd suck it up and just use the thing but it causes pain that lasts me days.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: MrSneis on Sun, 10 April 2011, 20:31:53: Wow I didn't put near that much loob ><

BTW I might offer to pick up that leo if you decide to sell :)
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 10 April 2011, 21:19:36: For some reason this thread reminds me of that redditt "Help I spooged in my wife's keyboard" thread.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Nautilus on Tue, 12 April 2011, 16:38:17: I just received my Leopold Tenkeyless with Blues and the stabilizers feel fine to me.

Now to return this Lithium Grease...
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Tue, 12 April 2011, 16:43:55: I agree. I have no problems with noise/slow reset/shakiness/heaviness of the stabilizers. I'm wondering if I should pick up some lithium grease, just to have around.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Nautilus on Tue, 12 April 2011, 16:47:15: Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;329518
I agree. I have no problems with noise/slow reset/shakiness/heaviness of the stabilizers. I'm wondering if I should pick up some lithium grease, just to have around.

Yeah, I might as well just keep the stuff. Glad you like the Leo, too. ^_~
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Reaif on Tue, 12 April 2011, 17:04:48: My stabilizers feel great so far. I haven't done an awful lot of typing on it yet, mostly just some irc stuff and casual browsing. I hope they don't change. The reason that the stabilized keys feel any different on mine is because of the little pads they put on the plate underneath.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: drsauced on Wed, 13 April 2011, 13:21:50: So... anybody heard the latest come-on in a gay bar?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Fri, 15 April 2011, 20:06:15: Chobo,
I wrote EK Support an email on the "stabilizer" issue. I too have mushy/grainy stabilizers and here's Brian's reply:

Hi ***,

Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear in my position. The fact is, these are
Cherry stablizers, and in all testing Leopold has done (and I've also done
in evaluating these products), they meet expectations for a Cherry part.
I do think they would benefit from some grease, but it is not necessary,
and probably will break-in some overtime as the plastic loosens and
wears a bit.

That all said, do they have have the same lightness and compliment the
tactility of Cherry MX switches that FILCO stablizers have? No, I don't
think they do, but they do have other advantages in terms of durability
and user servicability (cleaning, replacement, etc.). So in my mind it
is a fair tradeoff.

If you'd like me to send you a small syringe with some silicon grease,
I'd be more than happy to. Just let me know.

Best Regards,
Brian
http://elitekeyboards.com

I've since taken my Brown and Blue Leos back out of their boxes for re-evalution with Brian's reply in mind:
MX Blue Stabilizers:
I do hear the "click" and feel the "bump" through the mush in the stabilizers and more so if I press them slowly. They still have that sort of grainy mush mixed with the click/bump.
I think the blue switch helps things, as they're more animated and can over power the overall effect somewhat.
Ok, now I'm on the MX Brown:
Again, the same mushy/grainy feel, mixed in with the Brown bump. I suppose that in part, the Brown switch could be a little more docile than the Blue and have a little less stand out effect, despite the mush.
I mean you feel some tactility in the form of a little bump going through some grain.
It feels like someone shaved off the rough edges and smoothed out the bump or something.
Overall on both keyboards?
It's like pushing the keys through rice. You'll feel the bump in the Browns and Blues and hear the clack in the Blues too but again, through the rice.
I'm not sure but I think the stabilizers may be looseing as I use them even now. Not sure. Could be the same and I'm just getting used to them, as I've also looked for and now noticing more the bump and not just concentrating on the mush. Don't know.
All in all, I think that this may pass and the stabilizers may in fact loosen up as Brian suggested but time will tell.
If I didnt' think the rest of the keys on both boards weren't dynamite, and the stabilizers very close behind, then I'd get rid of them.
I'm going to be getting a Filco from Bruce though to compare and if those stabilizers blow the Leos away, then I'll likely sell them and just keep Filcos. Again, time will tell.
Whewww!
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: RiGS on Fri, 15 April 2011, 20:23:46: I'm surprised that he didn't offer a refund.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Fri, 15 April 2011, 20:35:08: Well, the more I think on it, the more I think I may be dealing with the trure Leo and it's really a matter of prefs/subjectivety. I was initially comparing to my Topre, which of course has very solid stabilizers but I think we're talking about apples and oranges and more than twice the price.
I'm actually getting more used to these stabilizers but I'm also curious if anyone out there has a Leo Blue or Brown that has the stabilizers that are exactly the same as the rest of the keys or if that's even possible?
Also, I've never tried a Filco but just the same, were talking about two different stabilizers anyway, which is also why I'm going to judge Leos by Leos and nothing more. I don't know if a refund is actually warranted.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: RiGS on Fri, 15 April 2011, 20:38:39: Steelseries also uses cherry stabilizers, and the stabilized keys feel different than the others.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: RiGS on Fri, 15 April 2011, 20:43:04: I can live with that.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Fri, 15 April 2011, 20:44:10: Ripster,
Do you think I'm thinking right here in just working with this vs screaming for a refund?
I think there's something to what Brian said on this really, and I think that a fair trial is in order. I have more to learn before assuming anything yet.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: BaconKnight on Fri, 15 April 2011, 21:48:58: The stabilizer thing is definitely there. I can feel it and I'm not a mech keyboard expert or anything. How big an issue this is I think is gonna be a personal thing though.

Looks like there's a few people in this thread that can't stand it. For someone like me, it doesn't really bother me at all. Again, it's not that I don't notice it. I do. It's just not something that impacts me in any negative way.

Also I think EK's customer support reply to one of the posters is true in that, true, a Filco may have a more desirable stabilizer but there are advantages to the Leopold. I know this might be super minor to some people but the fact it's a detachable usb cord to the keyboard for example is huge for me cuz I like to move around my keyboard from computer to computer a lot. Also when I decide to get another keyboard, if I can find another detachable usb keyboard type (probably another Leopold), I can easily and quickly switch out boards instead of having to reach behind my computer all the time. To me that tradeoff is worth it. For others, might not be.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Fri, 15 April 2011, 21:55:02: For the record, I wasn't feeling inclined to "scream for a refund". I was merely testing my own reasoning with continuing to trial them.
I was just wondering what you thought of this, since I'm just learning this stuff and you know stabilizers.
Based on what I do know, which is little, I am willing to test what Maj said and see if they "break in". It sounds reasonable but as I've said too, "time will tell". I do find it curious that two out of two Leos I have, have this "stabilizer" issue. So, maybe it's "normal".
I'll also pick up a Filco from The Keyboard Co as soon as they restock blues/browns and compare to the Leos. Maybe I'll get a crappy Filco or a great one or some of the same.
This will decide if I "sell" the Leos or not. I mean, the stabilizers are not terrible, just not what I expected.
The switches are great and I think I can live with the rest if nothing better comes along.
But honostly, I am the adaptive type. I am only concerned if this is "NOT" a Leo norm and I in fact have a piece of crap and am testing my reasoning with the facts I'm trying to gather before judging this.
The end.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Fri, 15 April 2011, 22:20:30: At all,
By the way. Brian warned about using "lithium" grease and recommended using "silicon" grease instead, as "lithium" grease can "damage plastic". Just want to FYI you guys that.
I'm not even going to concern myself with grease. Not the problem.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: manfaux on Sat, 16 April 2011, 00:11:52: any recommendations of silicon grease I can buy conveniently online? my local hardware store doesn't seem to have them.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: MrSneis on Sat, 16 April 2011, 00:37:06: FWIW I've just gotta say that based on my experiences today that some of you guys who are new (me included) that Filco isn't necessarily the be-all-end-all if you find little niggling issues with your Leos. The stabilizers may feel more even on a Filco but who is to say something else won't bug the hell out of you.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Sat, 16 April 2011, 01:05:00: How are your Filco's stabilizers?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: manfaux on Sat, 16 April 2011, 01:21:20: Quote from: harrison;331988
This (http://www.amazon.com/3--10041-Silicone-Lubricant-Aerosol/dp/B000BBYCUC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1302932033&sr=8-5)is what I've used for similar projects/items in the past. Dry silicone spray specifically would be best (which this is).

looks good, gonna order 1, hope it's safe!
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Evil_Spork on Sat, 16 April 2011, 01:42:41: After using the Leo with browns next to the Noppoo with browns the difference is startling.
The Noppoo feels virtually identical on all keys, and every key is smooth and easy to press.
This was most certainly not the case on the Leo though. The regular keys are a bit harder to press and not as smooth(not sure how this is possible.. my theory is it's the keycaps) and the stabilized keys are extremely mushy. Nearly to the point of a rubber dome stabilized key.

A good way I found to describe the difference from the Noppoo to the Leo was with car doors: the Leo feels like a brand new cheap American car. You close the door and it sounds solid but it's just a cheap plastic door stuffed with padding so it doesn't rattle and make it sound solid. On a good quality late 90's car the door truly is solid and sounds and feels like it. You can feel that it's solid and not flimsy plastic trying to sound solid.

I gave the Leo a week at work, and while I did get used to it, I am still not completely happy with it. I may be swapping the alpha keys from the Noppoo to the Leo to see how that changes the feel, but I think the Leo will be put up for sale very soon and I will be getting a Filco.

I think there is a lot to be said about where on the stabilized key you press as well. When you press them dead center over the switch it is a bit smoother.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: MrSneis on Sat, 16 April 2011, 02:58:38: Quote from: Engine;331997
How are your Filco's stabilizers?

The stabilizers are even like the other keys. I agree the feel is way different on the Leo but for some reason it didn't brother me as much and certainly never strained my fingers. The squeaking is a bummer but easily fixed in my exp as well.

I ordered two filcos from amazon; a red and a brown. The brown has a very slight bend in the chassis, just enough so that on a flat surface the feet aren't even, two keycaps also had some minor imperfections. The red doesn't have the chassis issue but it does have some wear marks from the plastic cover rubbing against the sides of the body during transit.

This is what I mean by if it's not the stabilizers of the Leo then it may be something else on a Filco that could drive you nuts, maybe I'm just unlucky and super OCD!

I don't even know anymore, I kinda lost the edge after today.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: mtl on Sat, 16 April 2011, 07:40:54: Quote from: MrSneis;332019
This is what I mean by if it's not the stabilizers of the Leo then it may be something else on a Filco that could drive you nuts, maybe I'm just unlucky and super OCD!
With the Filco people complained that the LEDs are too bright, the logo too blingy, and the key caps get shiny. People here are always picky about the details!
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 16 April 2011, 08:20:19: Quote from: MrSneis;332019
I ordered two filcos from amazon; a red and a brown. The brown has a very slight bend in the chassis, just enough so that on a flat surface the feet aren't even, two keycaps also had some minor imperfections. The red doesn't have the chassis issue but it does have some wear marks from the plastic cover rubbing against the sides of the body during transit.

I received my Filco tenkeyless w/ browns from Amazon a few days ago. It's flawless and I would recommend getting Amazon to send you a new one due to the chassis warp.

Quote from: mtl;332059
With the Filco people complained that the LEDs are too bright, the logo too blingy, and the key caps get shiny. People here are always picky about the details!

The LEDs are damned bright, but extremely directional and I'm not staring straight down at my KB. The logo is only slightly annoying in that it's a tactile distraction for my thumb when I'm using the inverted T. *All* keycaps get shiny.

That said I thought I had a bum keyboard, it was sending keys randomly. Then my mouse started to act up too. Turns out the USB hub I was using was about to melt down. The plastic casing was ~105° F. Swapped out for another and all my problems went away :)

Now to get another Filco for work... this Dell rubber crap is downright painful now.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Sat, 16 April 2011, 10:42:28: Quote from: Evil_Spork;332003
After using the Leo with browns next to the Noppoo with browns the difference is startling.
I gave the Leo a week at work, and while I did get used to it, I am still not completely happy with it. I may be swapping the alpha keys from the Noppoo to the Leo to see how that changes the feel, but I think the Leo will be put up for sale very soon and I will be getting a Filco.

On mine, the stabilizers are "ok" but not to my liking and I too will be looking for Filco to compare. I don't understand why these boards are the way they are but I see others not like that and in the end, I will not keep with what I don't like.
I don't know if I'll get rid of them or not but I don't think I'll be investing in any more Leos anytime soon.
Some here say they have a great board and others say they don't mind the weird stabilizers. That's good.
I don't really like them but I have no other Cherry boards to compare with but for that reason, I'll give Filco a try.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 16 April 2011, 10:45:55: From what I can tell, the cherry stabilizers seem to be mounted in a weird way on Leopolds (I guess because of the plate). These stabilizers are actually really nice on cherry corp keyboards.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Sat, 16 April 2011, 10:54:21: How's your Filco KL?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 16 April 2011, 10:56:22: I like it overall. I don't love the stabilizers and unfortunately they don't play "nicely" with some Cherry Corp doubleshots, especially shift and enter. I took them off today actually and I'm planning to put the doubleshot set from the group buy on instead.

It's definitely a solid keyboard though, and cherry blues are nice. Still, my KL Kustom boards are my favorite, because ERGO clears are my favorite switch.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Engine on Sat, 16 April 2011, 10:56:41: Quote from: mtl;332059
With the Filco people complained that the LEDs are too bright, the logo too blingy, and the key caps get shiny. People here are always picky about the details!

Cosmetics have nothing to do with "stabilizers", which is what this thread is about.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 16 April 2011, 11:12:39: They are mounted completely differently:

Plate-mounted:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5607463290_a961497f94.jpg)

PCB-mounted: (Taken from KL Kustom 1)
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=754)

Edit: Just noticed that the stabilizers LOOK a lot different overall too!
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: oddsratio on Tue, 21 June 2011, 02:41:36: Starting up the discussion over stabilizers again:

So, the KBC Poker Brown came in the mail a couple days ago and it uses cherry-style stabilizers, which I haven't tried before. Like what's been said about the leopold, they do feel a little mushier than the filco stabilizer keys. It doesn't bother me too much, though I'm wondering if any of the available mods, like the o-rings, (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18886-Ringing-Filco-Majestouch-2-Plus-Expanding-Polyurethane-Foam&p=362511&viewfull=1#post362511) recommended here will bring back some of the bounce or crispness back to those keys. Right now they are very light and there is very little feedback on actuation.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: wompwomp on Tue, 21 June 2011, 03:08:00: sorry not trying to jack you thread but I was wondering does anyone know if DAS stabilizers are decent?

btw I'm typing this with paintball gloves on and it's hella hard rofl.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: RickyJ on Tue, 21 June 2011, 16:09:43: Das Model S stabilizers are the same as Filcos.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: nesiax on Fri, 15 July 2011, 16:30:21: Hi Guys, could you please tell me which reference are the stabilizers on this photo:

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5028/5606878345_4f2f42eb58.jpg)

I need 4 pairs of them for a pcb mount.

Thank you all.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: SecrtAgentMan on Fri, 15 July 2011, 16:32:27: The stabilizers are the black looking switches to the left and right of the blue switch.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: nesiax on Fri, 15 July 2011, 16:38:53: Hi, i know they are the black looking switches, but i want to know the reference sku, also if i want to put some of them in a column i am not sure if the holes will overlap each other, i though i need exactly this reference:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5181&stc=1&d=1255710334)

So i want to know what is the reference of this keyboard stabilizer for a pcb mount.

Thank you all.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 15 July 2011, 16:52:16: You measure the distance between the center of the 2 stabilizer stems and you go here (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm) and figure it out. I can't tell you from a picture of something I've never owned.

However, most likely it is the 0.94 size and you will need G99-0224 for plate mounted or G99-0742 for PCB mounted.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: spolia optima on Fri, 15 July 2011, 17:01:48: Cherry corp stabilizers ftw. Haters gonna hate.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: nesiax on Fri, 15 July 2011, 17:49:26: well it seems that cherry stabilizers dont work because the holes will overlap with each other in a column configuration, so any other recommendation for stabilizers

look:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20984[/ATTACH]

?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 15 July 2011, 18:20:05: What size key are you using? What's the spacing between the stabilizer stem holes ?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: nesiax on Fri, 15 July 2011, 19:00:13: Hi, standard cherry mx blue, and according to cherry website the holes will overlap, look at the symmetric staggered board:

(http://i55.tinypic.com/de1hfs.jpg)

Look at the numeric keypad. i am not sure which stabilizer use ripster on the kinesis numpad, they don't have the same holes, probably they are the w/frame stabilizers ?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 15 July 2011, 19:02:08: The Symmetric Staggered is a *multiple configuration* PCB. The different configs overlap. If you have a single configuration for the key positions there will be no overlapping.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: silverphoenix on Thu, 28 July 2011, 13:39:55: Quote from: keyboardlover;332154
They are mounted completely differently:

Plate-mounted:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5607463290_a961497f94.jpg

PCB-mounted: (Taken from KL Kustom 1)
http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=114&pictureid=754

Edit: Just noticed that the stabilizers LOOK a lot different overall too!

I've been pouring over alot of posts in making my decision over these 2 kb's and for the mushy feeling with these pictures maybe this is the reason why. Excuse the drawing I did it on my lunch break at work and I only have access to paint here.

Notice how the plate mounted stabilizers like on the Leo's have the extra 4 guides (circled in red) but the other board mounted doesn't have those, just the dummy stem. My theory is that when you press down on a large key you cannot put completely even force on the entire key and it does skew a tiny bit.

now again bear with my drawing but when it skews there is very very little tolerance, especially if you consider the fact that the keycaps stem is round and the stabilizers are square I'd assume you'd have a bit of friction where I circled in blue.

Maybe the solution could be as simple as filing these extra guide bits down.

Again I don't own a filco nor a Leo (I have a meka G1 for 2 months now) but I'm looking into buying a brown after I try my friends ducky when he gets them. I'm no expert but so far the discussion has mostly been about how it feels and the possibility of greasing it helping, but maybe this could be the root of the problem?

any thoughts?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22611[/ATTACH]
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 28 July 2011, 15:15:34: Funny that this topic should come back. Earlier this week I put the round 3 SP blanks on my cherry blues. After a few hours of typing....oh no! my stabilized keys are kind of sloppy feeling! Took off the keys, put on a conservative amount of lithium grease and then golden town, keys feel good again. They actually don't feel quite as good as they did before I put the SP keys on but it's good enough. Could be the stems being too loose for the stabilizers or the lightness of the keys, not sure.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Supergleep on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:16:14: Quote from: Chobopants;388906
Funny that this topic should come back. Earlier this week I put the round 3 SP blanks on my cherry blues. After a few hours of typing....oh no! my stabilized keys are kind of sloppy feeling! Took off the keys, put on a conservative amount of lithium grease and then golden town, keys feel good again. They actually don't feel quite as good as they did before I put the SP keys on but it's good enough. Could be the stems being too loose for the stabilizers or the lightness of the keys, not sure.

Quick tip for fixing the loose stabilizers in the SP doubleshots, that is fast, easy, and most importantly, reversable: Cut up a plastic bag (sandwich bag, etc) into a 1/8" wide strip, and then cut that strip into 1/4" - 3/8" lengths. One piece for each stabilizer stem. Now put that piece of plastic flat over the key-stem, and use the stabilizer to push it in. It significantly firms up the stabilizer, makes no mess (like tape), and it isn't permanent (like glue). The thickness of the plastic bag piece is just enough to take up all the 'looseness' of the stabilizer stems when they're inserted into the key stems.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Chobopants on Thu, 28 July 2011, 23:40:35: Thanks! I'll do that tomorrow.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: noodles256 on Mon, 15 August 2011, 15:50:11: i like the leopold stabilizers better than the filcos.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 15 August 2011, 16:18:44: What is the t ball generation? Is that another way of saying you're old and cranky?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 27 November 2011, 20:36:24: I have never had a Cherry Blue keyboard.

So after reading a plethora of posts, over quite some time, I ordered a Leopold full-size (I don't know about you guys, but I use the number pad A LOT) from elitekeyboards.

I sprang for the soft landing pads and a tube of goo.

Clicky and light is how I want it, quiet is a bonus to help the family sleep.

This thread leaves me scratching my head as to whether I made the best choice for the money (I spent all I could).

On many of my multiple IBM Model M/Fs I have gone to the non-wire stabilizers on the big keys, and I think I like them better. If they fit well, there seem to be no downsides.

My report will come in a week or 2.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 27 November 2011, 23:35:27: Quote from: dante;459874
This is going to be a stupid ass question: On the Leo (or others) has anyone run a 1x1 key on those larger keys just to eliminate the issue entirely? Super easy/fast to remove keys - no mushy; I thought about this when thinking of my dream space saver: everything 1x1...

I actually had a GEEK HACK key as the Enter for a while on my Poker. It did look terrible but wasn't very hard to get used to.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: laffindude on Tue, 29 November 2011, 17:45:07: He lacks the noodles? ;o
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 29 November 2011, 18:03:37: So I have a tangential but similar underlying question, that I asked earlier.

I ordered a Leopold blue in preference to a Rosewill, based on reading many threads here, as well as the fact that I thought that the Rosewill logo looked hideous, but did I make the best decision at that price point?

I like to take things apart and tweak (break) them, so the Leopold got high marks for serviceability.

Strength and durability are huge criteria for me.

Am I going to regret the feel of those large keys?

thanks
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: pitashen on Tue, 29 November 2011, 18:11:14: Quote from: fohat.digs;460966
So I have a tangential but similar underlying question, that I asked earlier.

I ordered a Leopold blue in preference to a Rosewill, based on reading many threads here, as well as the fact that I thought that the Rosewill logo looked hideous, but did I make the best decision at that price point?

I like to take things apart and tweak (break) them, so the Leopold got high marks for serviceability.

Strength and durability are huge criteria for me.

Am I going to regret the feel of those large keys?

thanks

How is rosewill any less serviceable and less durable than leopold? I hate the logo and I wouldn't get one because it but I am puzzled by your statement.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: pitashen on Tue, 29 November 2011, 18:12:52: Quote from: fohat.digs;460966
So I have a tangential but similar underlying question, that I asked earlier.

I ordered a Leopold blue in preference to a Rosewill, based on reading many threads here, as well as the fact that I thought that the Rosewill logo looked hideous, but did I make the best decision at that price point?

I like to take things apart and tweak (break) them, so the Leopold got high marks for serviceability.

Strength and durability are huge criteria for me.

Am I going to regret the feel of those large keys?

thanks

How is rosewill any less serviceable and less durable than leopold? I hate the logo and I wouldn't get one because it but I am puzzled by your statements.

I am a cherry stabilizer users for the past 2 years. I don't really have anything to complain about it. It sure alters a bit of typing feel, but it SHOULDN'T be something to be regreted over with.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Zamorph on Tue, 29 November 2011, 19:02:39: Quote from: pitashen;460971
I don't really have anything to complain about it. It sure alters a bit of typing feel, but it SHOULDN'T be something to be regreted over with.

Agreed.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 November 2011, 19:09:18: Quote from: Chobopants;326310
The difference between the single switch keys and the keys with stabilizers really is jarring. It's just "crisp crisp crisp crisp MUSH MUSH crisp" and my speed drops dramatically whenever I have to use shift, enter, or backspace.

Yes, that's exactly the feeling I was getting from my Poker which has cherry-style stabilizers. My solution was to add o-rings to all keys except the stabilized ones, and now the feeling is surprisingly uniform across all keys.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 29 November 2011, 19:29:27: I ordered the soft landing pads from elitekeyboards, along with the keyboard itself, for noise and comfort reasons.

I am searching for a good combination of feel, sound, and speed.

What is the real difference in feel between the pads and the o-rings?

Reducing the subjective difference between the long keys and the singles is less important to me, but I need a nice feel overall with tactile click and minimal noise.

Maybe o-rings are a better solution than pads.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 November 2011, 20:26:16: Quote from: fohat.digs;461002
What is the real difference in feel between the pads and the o-rings?

The pads (even the firm ones) are noticeably softer than the o-rings, so they give a mushy feel with great shock absorption and sound dampening. The o-rings provide a more bouncy feeling (moderate shock absorption) when you bottom out, so they don't alter the mechanical keyboard feel as much as the pads do. What's better for you is a matter of preference really.
For more info check the o-ring wiki and discussion (you can find it in my sig) so we don't derail this thread.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: bokan on Sat, 17 December 2011, 23:44:48: hello, sorry to necro this a bit but I have an fc200rt with the same problem as the OP- specifically, the spacebar and left shift key are really bad- bad as in ridiculously mushy and slow to return as opposed to slightly different. Are there any solutions to this? I want to just get rid of the crappy stabilizers entirely and glue in some non-functioning switches in their place- has this been done? The one thing that I did try is greasing the stabilizers with the elitekeyboards grease, but this somehow seemed to make it much worse (I may have overdone it, but I took most of the grease back out and it still seems terrible). I'm going to try the o-ring thing next and see if that helps. Does anyone have any other ideas?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: pitashen on Sun, 18 December 2011, 00:07:11: Quote from: bokan;473064
hello, sorry to necro this a bit but I have an fc200rt with the same problem as the OP- specifically, the spacebar and left shift key are really bad- bad as in ridiculously mushy and slow to return as opposed to slightly different. Are there any solutions to this? I want to just get rid of the crappy stabilizers entirely and glue in some non-functioning switches in their place- has this been done? The one thing that I did try is greasing the stabilizers with the elitekeyboards grease, but this somehow seemed to make it much worse (I may have overdone it, but I took most of the grease back out and it still seems terrible). I'm going to try the o-ring thing next and see if that helps. Does anyone have any other ideas?

how bad is it? a video of it would help.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: pitashen on Sun, 18 December 2011, 00:34:44: Clone or not, the stabilizers work quite well and smooth on my Leopold.
The Taiwan OEM making the leopold boards probably needs a better QA standard.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: bokan on Sun, 18 December 2011, 13:01:30: Here's a fairly non-informative video (can't actually post the link, sorry):

/watch?v=Y5n1pUggw2s&context=C37e86f9ADOEgsToPDskKktP8t-DHxBEY7L3Q6uFa2

So I basically took most of the goop out (incidentally, it's better to take the board apart and come in from the bottom than it is to goop from the top when it comes to actually getting the right part of the stabilizer), and it's mostly back to how it was before. What I find bizarre is that the razer blackwidow stabilized keys feel amazing (tried it in a store), but these high class imports (I'm coming from a cheapo logitech) all seem to be messed up to some extent. It just seems kind of inappropriate. I might end up trying to sell this guy if I can't get it the way I want it; if so I'll make a post.

I absolutely love the feel of the browns- do you guys think a filco with costars would serve me better?
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: Human on Sun, 18 December 2011, 13:25:04: Quote from: bokan;473263
Here's a fairly non-informative video (can't actually post the link, sorry):

/watch?v=Y5n1pUggw2s&context=C37e86f9ADOEgsToPDskKktP8t-DHxBEY7L3Q6uFa2

So I basically took most of the goop out (incidentally, it's better to take the board apart and come in from the bottom than it is to goop from the top when it comes to actually getting the right part of the stabilizer), and it's mostly back to how it was before. What I find bizarre is that the razer blackwidow stabilized keys feel amazing (tried it in a store), but these high class imports (I'm coming from a cheapo logitech) all seem to be messed up to some extent. It just seems kind of inappropriate. I might end up trying to sell this guy if I can't get it the way I want it; if so I'll make a post.

I absolutely love the feel of the browns- do you guys think a filco with costars would serve me better?
Bro, you sure you liked it?
[video=youtube;Gl3qgBoW3F4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3qgBoW3F4[/video]
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: bokan on Sun, 18 December 2011, 13:47:04: Quote from: Human;473270
Bro, you sure you liked it?

Ya bro. Lol. I think the moral of this story is that build quality varies, and the designs of lots of these boards are such that small flaws can cause serious usability problems.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: bokan on Sun, 18 December 2011, 15:44:25: So, a bit of a happy ending to this one. I went to the hardware store and picked up some 11/32x7/32/1/15 inch o rings, and placed two on the center rods of the left shift and spacebar keys. It made both a whole lot more responsive. It's still not the same as the regular keys, but it's close enough. I still think that there is something systematically wrong with these boards, and that some people just have a higher tolerance for it than others, but this is a pretty good fix.
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: pitashen on Sun, 18 December 2011, 22:37:53: Quote from: bokan;473331
So, a bit of a happy ending to this one. I went to the hardware store and picked up some 11/32x7/32/1/15 inch o rings, and placed two on the center rods of the left shift and spacebar keys. It made both a whole lot more responsive. It's still not the same as the regular keys, but it's close enough. I still think that there is something systematically wrong with these boards, and that some people just have a higher tolerance for it than others, but this is a pretty good fix.

I wouldn't call it a "systematic" fault. Cherry Corp stabilizers are known for changing the typing feel of the switch and it is just how the stabilizer works for as long as Cherry designed (long time ago) and used it. Your sticking/mushy "issue" could be caused by the bad QA on the OEM part or something rather more of a personal preference. OR MAYBE like ripster mentioned... it could be a Clone... if that matters...
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: pitashen on Sun, 18 December 2011, 22:47:36: Quote from: ripster;473378
At least your controller works. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?25075-Leopold-Controller-Problems)

I REALLY have to try playing around with Cherry G99 stabilizers sometime.

And can somebody check Sixty's wacko Stabilizer Clone theory? I think the molding mark is a tad different but really doubt it's a Chinese Clone.

I dun see as many ppl here using ducky complaining about the stabilizer. What do ppl at ocn say about their duckies? Quack*
Title: "Fixing" the Leopold stabilizers
Post by: bokan on Mon, 19 December 2011, 02:17:43: you know, judging by how some of the stabilized keys are just fine, it might just be bad QA. bummer eh?