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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Engine on Thu, 07 April 2011, 21:09:35
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I'm actually finding my self "curious" about Cherry Reds. I mean I'm curious enough to try them but for the price tag, I'm not sure about pulling the trigger.
I favor the heavier switches but I'm forced to go lighter for my wrists.
I am extremely happy with my Topre(variable) for this and just because anyway.
I'm also looking forward to my new Leo Browns to show up tomorrow for this reason too, as I've read here in the Wiki/various posts, that they're "ergonomic". I guess by force, I'm getting into the lighter switches.
What I'm wondering now is, should I also give "linear" a go now? How will this experience be? I like the subtle bump/thock of the Topre but by all reading, I'm expecting the Reds to be more or less "dead"? No feel/sound. I do expect some, as I've seen youtube vids on this but what can I expect? I don't want to bottom out for fear of "rubber dome" syndrome. Just one minute on a rubber dome and my wrists really give it to me!
From what I've read, Reds are 45g weight, just as the Browns and my topre are.
For that reason, despite being different animals, I'm wondering on them as a nice addition to my wrist-friendly boards?
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Your wrist pain has nothing to do with the switch force. You apply the pressure with your fingers, not your wrist.
The cause of your pain is the excessive amount of ulnar deviation of the wrist during typing.
You should definitely start some kind of wrist conditioning, but before that consult a professional.
Linear switches have NO bump at all, and you will likely buttom out the red switch causing a constant impact on your fingers.
I don't recommend buying new keyboards just for the lulz, especially if you are happy with your variable Topre.
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Typing has everything to do with your wrist! Your fingers are connected to tendons which begin at the wrist! Of course you can have wrist pain from typing!
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http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/wristhanddigits/flexordigitorumsup/tutorial.html (http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/wristhanddigits/flexordigitorumsup/tutorial.html)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16723&stc=1&d=1302265130)
As you can see the FLEXOR DIGITORUM SUPERFICIALIS muscle, which flexes the fingers doesn't connect to the wrist.
Typing has everything to do with your wrist!
I have never said otherwise.
My point is that the switch force doesn't effect the wrist joint,
Usually the source of the pain is the repeatedly occurring ulnar deviated position of the wrist during typing.
Just ask any physical therapist!
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When using low-force key switches of any kind (including cherry brown, red, and even the weighted keytronic), I can type comfortably for hours with little fatigue.
But I lose accuracy if i use browns or reds in the morning. Kind of like how in the morning your handwriting can be sloppy.
This is my method: When I wake up, I use higher-force buckling spring switches for warm-up time. They give my tendons a work out. By this time, my fingers are nimble enough for more delicate switches like blues, browns, or reds-, which I use for the remainder of the day.
I have been on this "system" for a few years now and I could not be happier.
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I don't know how that applies to ergonomics. Ergonomics is a science I know nothing about. All I can give is my subjective personal experience.
Also, I don't like the hard landing of plate-mounted MX switches. When you bottom out on a PCB mounted Cherry switch, the PCB and plastic absorb some of the impact. Not-so with plate mounted switches. The so-called "flimsy" construction of Cherry keyboards actually makes them, in my opinion, MORE ergonomic.
*dons flame suit*
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When using low-force key switches of any kind (including cherry brown, red, and even the weighted keytronic), I can type comfortably for hours with little fatigue.
But I lose accuracy if i use browns or reds in the morning. Kind of like how in the morning your handwriting can be sloppy.
This is my method: When I wake up, I use higher-force buckling spring switches for warm-up time. They give my tendons a work out. By this time, my fingers are nimble enough for more delicate switches like blues, browns, or reds-, which I use for the remainder of the day.
I have been on this "system" for a few years now and I could not be happier.
I don't have this kind of problems if I am using blue/brown Cherries and Topre switches. However, I do find that there are times when my AEK II does not feel comfortable. The same goes for my IBM Model M. Interestingly, when the AEK II does not feel right, I will hook up my Model M and it will feel so soothing.
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I don't have this kind of problems if I am using blue/brown Cherries and Topre switches. However, I do find that there are times when my AEK II does not feel comfortable. The same goes for my IBM Model M. Interestingly, when the AEK II does not feel right, I will hook up my Model M and it will feel so soothing.
Same here, I do that all the time. Lotta times it comes down to how much energy I've got. Give me a pot of strong coffee and I'm all about the Model M.
Side note: Even if you don't like the board itself, the AEK and AEKII sound amazing. Just the perfect tone and resonance. Almost musical. This seriously influences my overall opinion of the Extended series. I could listen to someone typing on an Apple Extended for hours.
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Side note: Even if you don't like the board itself, the AEK and AEKII sound amazing. Just the perfect tone and resonance. Almost musical. This seriously influences my overall opinion of the Extended series. I could listen to someone typing on an Apple Extended for hours.
I would not say that I don't like them, although after I clean my AEK I may end up liking it more than the AEK II. When I hit the sweet spot in terms of how much force to use, the keyboard feel amazing. Others may disagree, but there is a right balance of force where it feels like a knife going into butter and the keyboard feels so nice.
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I think that linear switches and ergonomics should not stay in the same sentence.
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I would not say that I don't like them, although after I clean my AEK I may end up liking it more than the AEK II. When I hit the sweet spot in terms of how much force to use, the keyboard feel amazing. Others may disagree, but there is a right balance of force where it feels like a knife going into butter and the keyboard feels so nice.
Complicated ALPS switches are so fickle :(
New and clean, they are boob-cloud city.
Throw in a little dirt or a ton of heavy use and they start to get grainy and stiff, and then it's time for either a serious tune-up or a new board.
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I think that linear switches and ergonomics should not stay in the same sentence.
Someone explain this to me please.
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Someone explain this to me please.
I just think that the tactile feedback is an important part of ergonomics.
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I think that linear switches and ergonomics should not stay in the same sentence.
I don't get this argument either. Please explain. For many people the brown Cherries are almost linear because the tactile bump is so subtle especially when typing at high speed.
EDIT:
I just think that the tactile feedback is an important part of ergonomics.
Fair enough. But like I said above, some people don't notice the tactile bump of brown Cherries. I would have said the same thing as you a year or two ago. Today, I am not so sure.
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For many people the brown Cherries are almost linear
Many people included me.
I'm just waiting the delivery of a bunch of cherry white to swap my browns with them.
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I don't want to bottom out for fear of "rubber dome" syndrome. Just one minute on a rubber dome and my wrists really give it to me!
From what I've read, Reds are 45g weight, just as the Browns and my topre are.
For that reason, despite being different animals, I'm wondering on them as a nice addition to my wrist-friendly boards?
Here's my personal opinion, others may disagree.
I don't have any experience with Cherry Red, but I have used Cherry Brown and Cherry Blue. While Cherry blue is my favourite switch, I find Cherry Brown to be the most comfortable switch. I can type longer and feel less fatigue on Cherry Brown. Over time you get use to the lightness and start to change your typing style.
I like to compare the use of a Cherry brown keyboard to driving. When I my Filco with Cherry brown, I usually try to enjoy the experience and am more worried about keeping a nice smooth and consistent rhythm rather than trying to beat the world typing record. This will also help your wrist pain I think.
I would assume that you can develop the same type of typing style with Cherry Red.
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My point is that the switch force doesn't effect the wrist joint,
Usually the source of the pain is the repeatedly occurring ulnar deviated position of the wrist during typing.
Just ask any physical therapist!
The legitimate question is about ergonomics.
Maybe your patient is not as proficient as you are in anatomy. We cannot all be brain surgeon like you are ;-). Let's focus on ergonomy and pain (where ever it comes from).
I never tried any MX Red. But I can tell you the Black (linear) were the most painful. Only for a while… Once I got used to them (few weeks), I couldn't see/feel an ergonomic difference.
Some folks here can glide on any switches. Some others, like me, almost always bottom out on all. I suspect bottoming it out is less ergonomic then "gliding". If my assumption is right, a switch easy to glide on would be more "ergonomic". I have no science or brain surgeon to quote… Just an impression from experience.
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In terms of tendons/ligaments in hands:
As a rock climber I can tell you 100% that there are tendons that go from your fingers basically all the way down to your elbow. They may not be directly connected to your wrist but they definitely go through it. I've pulled tendons from pulling on single fingers and felt it pop in my forearm, and then I have to let it heal for 6-8 months. Fun!
In terms for ergonomics -
For the switches that I own right now in terms of long term comfort:
Brown ~ Topre > Blue
In terms of Brown vs Topre it really depends on what's going on. The Topre kind of forces me to type a little slower and it gives me a soft landing if I'm bottoming out. The Browns give close to no resistance and kind of feel like typing through silk. If I'm slamming the plate the Browns will get a little jarring after a while but if I focus on boob clouding it feels wonderful.
This is why I purchased the Linear R.
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Most tendons in the hand are directly connected to the wrist, except the one that flexes the fingers.
Higher activation force may cause you sore forearms, but definitely not the reason of your pain.
Probably the reason of your pain is an inflammed wrist tendon.
Also note that the avarage typer produces force well above that requires (45cN) to activate the switch.
You may think that a stiffer switch will make you tired, but it is easier to not buttom out on them.
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focus on boob clouding it feels wonderful.
Boob clouding is the mother of all ergonomics.
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At Geekhack we obey the laws of thermoboobnamics!
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Ya XL came up with it. I'm hoping to get the verb form "boob clouding" to mean typing with minimal bottoming out on a light linear/tactile switch. :)
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IMHO keyboard ergonomics (standard layout, don't wanna further complicate things) come down to 2 things:
1. Force required. You want low-force. This is how much physical work you put into actuating a switch. Less force, less strain = more ergonomic.
2. The bottom-out. You want a soft landing. This is easier on the nerves in your fingertips, which, trust me, hurt really really bad after long typing sessions.
Thus, in my mind, the most ergonomic standard keyboard would be something akin to a brown or red MX, PCB mounted, with a layer of foam or w/e to soften the last half millimetre of the keystroke.
This way, because it's mechanical and the activation point is high, you don't have to bottom out. If you do bottom out, it's dampened and won't hurt your fingertips.
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i count three euphemisms there. nice
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we can argue about what is and not deemed ergonomic, but i can never classify a linear switch as ergonomic. You need that physical tactility to stop you from bottoming out, I think of bottoming out much like marathon runners. Eventually all that shock of running thousand of miles just breaks their knees and joints form all that impact. Same thing if you bottom out.
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I think it's more on "how" you type because I found day and night difference once I started using my Unicomp, as opposed to my old rubber dome. That despite the heavier switch.
On that note, I found even more relief using the Topre. On both counts, I was concientious of "how" I was typing and trying to type lighter and it worked. I was purposely paying attention to the tactility, so as to know when to release the key.
Again, that, along with typing with a lighter touch, allowed me to enjoy for the first time in my life, cramp free typing(or at least longer typing sessions w/o cramping up).
That said, it sounds like maybe, at least for me, Reds may be unwise after all.
Thanks for your helping me think this through!