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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: killy on Sat, 09 April 2011, 15:55:22
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I recently received the Topre Esc Key as part of Mr.Interface's worldwide sinklist. My reference is the cherry blue switch from a Noppoo keyboard as well as a lifetime's worth of keytronic experience. However, there's really not much to say about the switch itself.
Essentially it behaves just like a rubber dome. In a blue cherry, no matter how fast or slow you hit the key there is a well defined point at which it clicks. After this, there is still a few mm to travel before bottoming out. This is the greatest difference between cherries and rubber domes that I have come to appreciate.
Rubber domes, on the other hand, behave differently. If you push the key fast you get a bump (which is more spread out and not as sharp as a mechanical) and almost afterwards you bottom out. This is unavoidable as that is how the rubber dome collapses. If you push it gently, slowly, the dome will gradually deform and there is no bump. So there is no way to 'float on the clicks' like with cherry blues, e.g. type only by clicks without bottoming out. You have to bottom out with a Topre.
What makes the Topre better than other membranes? It has a deep travel distance. Other regular height rubber domes still have a short travel distance, and the keys will often rattle at the top. The key in a topre is always in contact with the rubber and throughout the entire key press you are always in contact with something giving you force feedback. I would like to try a full keyboard with these switches.
However, full height keytronic rubber domes behave almost exactly the same.
As for whether they are better or not than clicky switches, it's hard to say. Some people may appreciate a more smoothed out bump, while others may prefer a sharp, well defined point. I can see why people who game or type a lot would like the keyboard, as the keys probably help you when you are typing fast since they are softer.
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You have to bottom out with a Topre.
No, you don't have to, but you can't know this from the keychain itself. The capacitive sensing triggers (actuates) somewhere in the middle, and there was 2011 RF model announced which has user-selectable actuation point. Still, you'll most likely bottom out.
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Topres, like Alps, have tactile points high in the travel, this means you concentrate all the force at the start of travel and after the tactile point it just goes away. Cherry switches are quite ideal for not bottoming out because the actuation point is right in the middle.
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TBH, I don't feel any tactility on a Topre - just like the other rubber domes.
There is a really measly initial amount of free travel, practically impossible to feel except in very synthetic way of testing. Compare that to the initial free travel of MX blues for example.
Basically, with Topre you have a great resistance since the very beginning, and then you go with the collapsing dome. You don't really have any feedback to avoid bottoming out. Worse yet, the initial force required has to additionally compensate the static friction. On the 45g Topres, I find the initial force that needs to be applied bit of tiring.
There are only two things that I see as enhancements in Topre over the regular rubber dome - the capacitive sensing, which allows for midway signal trigger, and the softened bottom out. The lack of tactility is killing - I can't feel whether I actuated a key or not, so I have to keep track on the screen for errors.
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I think the activation point in the Topre is well defined and very consistent.
I can easily feel the exact point where I can tell I actuated it.
It actuates right in the middle of the bump, and the bump is a lot smoother than on a regular rubber dome.
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2011 RF model announced which has user-selectable actuation point. Still, you'll most likely bottom out.
this sounds like an interesting idea, can someone point me towards more info? I'm searching the forum & wiki, but haven't found anything yet. Thanks.
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I think the activation point in the Topre is well defined and very consistent.
I can easily feel the exact point where I can tell I actuated it.
It actuates right in the middle of the bump, and the bump is a lot smoother than on a regular rubber dome.
I think the issue lies with the backspace being a 30gram key...maybe the keychain itself has the 30g rubber instead of the 45.
I hear the tactile point in the 30 is unnoticeable, in the 45g it is there (like browns) and on the 55g keys it's very obvious.
Could be wrong, I have never used a topre :p (though I am typing on an MX Red - it's a middle class topre)
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can someone point me towards more info?
Here you go:
(http://i.imgur.com/JOtNB.png)
One of the threads - here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=267336#post267336).
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I think the issue lies with the backspace being a 30gram key...maybe the keychain itself has the 30g rubber instead of the 45.
I hear the tactile point in the 30 is unnoticeable, in the 45g it is there (like browns) and on the 55g keys it's very obvious.
Could be wrong, I have never used a topre :p (though I am typing on an MX Red - it's a middle class topre)
You are right. On 45g the bump is here. The tactile point on 35g keys is really soft, almost linear.
45g is the sweet spot. 35g is too light imo.
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The backspace has a resistance of 45cN on the variable.
The 105U has 35g pinkies, and the tactile point is unnoticeable indeed. However the 35g domes collapse at the half way of the stroke, and easy to tell when they are activated.
I don't have the linear-r, but the blacks feel entirely different than the topre.
Topres, like Alps, have tactile points high in the travel, this means you concentrate all the force at the start of travel and after the tactile point it just goes away. Cherry switches are quite ideal for not bottoming out because the actuation point is right in the middle.
ch_123 definitely made a very good point with that, but I think that Cherry switches are quite ideal for not bottoming out, because the spring resistance gets heavier and heavier.
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I have an all 55g so I can't speak for the other keys but mine have a VERY distinct bump. I get just as much if not more feedback on my Realforce than my Cherry Brown. Makes me even happier that I went for 55g instead of variable.
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Here you go:
One of the threads - here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=267336#post267336).
Thanks very much :) It's a pity the related thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13542) went in the direction it did.
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Hamblet has an anger management problem.
That's a polite way of saying it.
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Hamblet has an anger management problem.
To be fair, when someone posts something serious and you come in with your bull**** code of honor (intentional typo) it can cause some of those with shorter tempers to get angry quite quick ;)
Not everyone is as aloof as us, good sir!
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Woot looks like I am next for the topre keychain! CHOO CHOO!
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I had wanted to mention that initially the Topre ESC almost felt linear, but then I realized it was probably a lighter weighted dome.
However, I still think that because it is a rubber dome, you have to commit to a bottom out. Trying to lightly hit rubber domes results in a complete mushy linear response.
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Can you put some coins on the keycap and tell us what's the weight needed to depress it ?
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Hm, sure. Does anyone have the weights for canadian coins?
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According to the Royal Canadian Mint, a 2000+ Canadian nickel has a mass of 3.95 grams (http://www.mint.ca/store/mint/learn/5-cents-5300006). Due to the market price of nickel ore, in 2000 the Mint switched to a steel base material for all standard currency coins. 1982-1999 nickels are 4.6 grams.
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8 x 3.95 g, 2 x 4.6 g.