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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: stupefaction on Sun, 10 April 2011, 00:38:14
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My first two computers were the original Macintosh and the original PowerBook, neither of which came with a numpad. When I switched to Linux and started to use PC keyboards, I still had no reason to use the numpad, except if I had to move diagonally in certain games. After I learned to touch-type, I really didn't need the numpad to enter digits any more. I imagine it's possible to use the numpad by touch, but I don't see how that would be any faster than using the top row.
My question to numpad users is this: why do you feel a need to use the numpad? Have you considered using the top row instead, and have you tried to do so for an extended period? Do you use the numpad by touch alone, or do you have to look at it while entering numbers? Do you touch-type in general?
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I use the numpad for work and use it constantly all day long as numbers are a huge part of my job (logistics) so I have to have one at work although lately I have been thinking about getting a seperate numpad and bringing in one of my tenkeyless's. All 3 of my home boards are tenkeyless's like you said no use at home.
I would say 98% of the people who use numpads use them only for work.
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I use it for garrys mod it is absolutely necessary
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the numpad is MUCH faster for entering numbers and arithmetic than the top row could ever be. That being said, i use it very rarely.
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Data entry necessitates the use of the number pad, as well as alt+3 for ♥ symbols in Starcraft 2.
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I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.
If you're an inveterate numpad user, let's say you woke up to a world in which numpads were abolished. Would you really suffer that much? It might take you a day or two to adapt, but wouldn't you end up using the top row at least as efficiently as the numpad? Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?
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I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.
If you're an inveterate numpad user, let's say you woke up to a world in which numpads were abolished. Would you really suffer that much? It might take you a day or two to adapt, but wouldn't you end up using the top row at least as efficiently as the numpad? Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?
the zero is large and right next to the thumb, the numpad is rectangular and better fits the hand, and the arithmetic operators are far more accessible and don't need the shift modifier to actuate.
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Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?
Exactly this is the problem. You "HAVE" to use the top row with both hands for it to be effective in any way. The numpad is easily operated with one hand only. Freeing up your other hand for other tasks.
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the zero is large and right next to the thumb, the numpad is rectangular and better fits the hand, and the arithmetic operators are far more accessible and don't need the shift modifier to actuate.
What this guy said. The number row is just too far above home row to be comfortable to use, unless you shift your entire hand up, but then the problem is things like +, - which need the shift button which is super uncomfortable to use if you're hands are up on the number keys as home row.
Also you'd be relying on you're weakest finger (the pinkys) to actuate the important keys you'd need in this set up like shift, plus, minus, equals sign. And then there's the issue of multiplication and division. Multiplication would either be x button all the way down there on the bottom row or the * button which is another shift modified button. Division probably would be the / button, another out of the way button especially if you're typing on the number row. It's just a bad, bad, bad, set up.
If you ever took a business class in high school where they taught you tenkey, you'd see just how much faster it is, espeically when dealing with mathematical/computational situations.
Lastly, tenkey is the set up for a lot of counter machines like cash registers. It's a standard already, part of it being that it saves space (can you imagine a long row of numbers at a cash register?). This is also why tenkey was standardized, as another poster said, so the other hand can do something which someone at a cash register needs to do often.
EDIT: Note this is coming from a guy who has a tenkeyless board lol. For home use I don't need it but what I pointing out here is the reasons for why it exists and as a purely numerical input device, it's better in a lot of situations if ALL you're gonna be putting in is numbers.
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I use the numpad for gaming, because i'm lefthanded and WASD with the right hand doesn't work for me very well.
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The top row is really wide. You need 2 hands to use it at any sufficient speed, and you need liberal use of shift in order to access + and *, and you need to reach down to hit /. That means you need a ton of hand motion to use the top row. Numpad on the other hand is easily used with one hand, with all the numbers placed in a nice grid that requires a lot less finger movement.
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I'm right handed so I find the numpad to be a bit more convenient than the numbers at the top. Thankfully I have space for it although the Rosewill isn't a "large" full sized keyboard.
I could live without the numpad if I had to but it's a nice convenience to have for me.
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I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.
If you're an inveterate numpad user, let's say you woke up to a world in which numpads were abolished. Would you really suffer that much? It might take you a day or two to adapt, but wouldn't you end up using the top row at least as efficiently as the numpad? Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?
You don't know any accountants, do you?
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I want to have sex with my CPA. He made sure I paid less taxes than General Electric!
Hell, there's no skill involved in that.
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I have no basis on which to judge your skill at gay sex except to say that I can't imagine you being as good at it as MW.
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We need to stop picking on the poor guy. He's become like a meme.
Maybe we should replace him with The Solutor for a while?
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He doesn't even POST here anymore!
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He doesn't even POST here anymore!
Too worn out after all the gay sex.
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Welly doesn't post here anymore either.
MW: obvious troll
Welly: political troll
Hamblet: HILARIOUS troll. Best ever. Wish he still posted.
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I imagine it's possible to use the numpad by touch, but I don't see how that would be any faster than using the top row.
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My question to numpad users is this: why do you feel a need to use the numpad? Have you considered using the top row instead, and have you tried to do so for an extended period? Do you use the numpad by touch alone, or do you have to look at it while entering numbers? Do you touch-type in general?
I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.
Have you ever tried to enter a very long list of numbers using one hand, while using your other hand to hold a ruler as you go through the list of numbers to enter to make sure you enter the numbers correctly? Try doing this on the number row and see how effective and efficient you can be.
Also sometimes, some applications require that you type a number then press on Enter, then enter another number, then press on Enter, etc. The Enter key is too far from the number row for that kind of application.
Nothing against you, but this is the question that makes laugh all the time. Just because I don't need a numpad does not mean that no one does. Thinking this way is similar to a horse wearing blinkers.
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I want to have sex with my CPA. He made sure I paid less taxes than General Electric!
Is not GE the smart company who uses taxpayers' money to not pay taxes?
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Yea...one of the **** companies that we unfortunately bailed out.
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Yea...one of the **** companies that we unfortunately bailed out.
It is sad, but there will always be companies looking to work the system.
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Just smart enough to job the system to avoid taxes.
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Hell, there's no skill involved in that.
Really? You do know they got like $1.2 billion in tax 'relief' ? Meaning the idiot fed's not only didn't take any money from them, but gave that much to GE.
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The one-handed argument makes sense to me. I can see that an accountant would want to enter numbers with one hand while using the other to pet his dog or stir his coffee, or even to move a ruler down a list of numbers that he's copying.
I'm still not sure that justifies the expense to manufacturers of building a numpad into keyboards by default, and the expense to discerning consumers of buying a numpadless keyboard. The way I see it, keyboards should be tenkeyless by default, and it's the accountants who should pay extra for a numpad. The world is upside down!
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Who needs a tenkey numpad when we can all learn to type numbers like this guy?
I can touch type numbers on the number row but I still prefer the comfort of the tenkey layout for heavy numeric entry.
Speaking of... I've got a Goldtouch GTC-0077 in the mail!
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Lol, he is Russian.
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Russians are always experts at stuff that doesn't matter. Like chess, and handball.
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The one-handed argument makes sense to me. I can see that an accountant would want to enter numbers with one hand while using the other to pet his dog or stir his coffee, or even to move a ruler down a list of numbers that he's copying.
I'm still not sure that justifies the expense to manufacturers of building a numpad into keyboards by default, and the expense to discerning consumers of buying a numpadless keyboard. The way I see it, keyboards should be tenkeyless by default, and it's the accountants who should pay extra for a numpad. The world is upside down!
I think it would be a mistake to think that the cost of having a numpad on a keyboard is significantly more than not having it. I would not be surprised if the manufacturing cost of a keyboard is under $10. In my opinion, the whole point of having a numpad offered by default is due to one thing: consumers demand.
Let's see why it makes sense for keyboard manufacturers to offer numpad by default.
First. People know that keyboards are available with numpads. Most people are good at using calculators. They would not want to invest the time to learn using the number row when a numpad is available.
Second, most people don't care much for what keyboard they are using, if it's mechanical or not. All they care about is being able to type and enter numbers. These people don't see a tenkeyless keyboard as getting a lot for their money. And since keyboards are not like a newly developed drug, keyboard manufacturers don't want to risk losing sales. This makes sense. Why do you think a tenkeyless Filco cost more than a standard size Filco? It's because those who want tenkeyless keyboards are significantly outnumbered by those who want standard size keyboards. The demand for tenkeyless keyboards is lower and therefore, manufacturers have to charge more to compensate. Moreover, most users don't want to spend too much money a keyboard. In fact, most of them want to spend the least amount possible, that's why they don't replace the keyboard which comes with their computer. Buying a seperate numpad means spending more money in their case.
If I were to start my own keyboard brand for sale, I would go for standard size. It will be hard for me to convince the majority of users than a tenkeyless keyboard is better for them, that it brings the mouse closer to them.
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Russians are always experts at stuff that doesn't matter. Like chess, and handball.
I would not call chess and handball things that don't matter :-)
Does not playing chess force you to think a lot, and therefore helps your brain developing more neurons? What I learned in Psychology is that giving one's brain a workout regularly is a good way to protect oneself agianst alzheimer. Handball is a sport, and therefore is a way of keeping in shape.
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Joke. Killed.
Ugh.
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Is there some mathematical explanation for why tenkeyless keyboards, which are produced in small numbers, cost more than the abundant tenkeyful keyboards? I only wish there were some graphical device that one could use to illustrate and generalize this curious phenomenon.
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Dammit, man.
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excel
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Joke. Killed.
Ugh.
Sorry...LOL.
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Is there some mathematical explanation for why tenkeyless keyboards, which are produced in small numbers, cost more than the abundant tenkeyful keyboards? I only wish there were some graphical device that one could use to illustrate and generalize this curious phenomenon.
Umm....
Take a number of X which is cost of developing, desigining and making master tools and parts for keyboard.
Take a number X which is same, minus savings from tenkeyless.
Now
You sell 1000 normal keyboars. Price Y + X/1000
You sell 100 tenkeyless boards Price 0.9Y + X/100
Savings in material cost, don't realy overcome the volume.
BTW, ISO is superior for number entry on numrow ;D Enter is in better place...
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Slimmer is more expensive usually. Laptops? Girls?
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Umm....
BTW, ISO is superior for number entry on numrow ;D Enter is in better place...
The . is also farther from the number row than it is from the numbers on the numpad. Of course, some people can say that the period can be remapped, but most people don't even know that they can remap the keys. Moreover, I have been typing in both English and French for years, and I am so used to having my ~ key where it is that moving it to somewhere else will only cause frustration.
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Slimmer is more expensive usually. Laptops? Girls?
baaaaahaha nice
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I think we should make calculators that mimic the top row keys, they would me more efficient because I could use 2 hands to type on them . . .
O wait that's why I learned to use a slide rule.
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i use one to input poker calculations
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I prefer using the tenkey than the top row. I usually have to use the tenkey at work, but I still catch myself using it at home every now and then - enough that I'd prefer to have a tenkey around somewhere. Usually it ends up being used for seeing how our budget is (we're living on a tight budget right now, so I have to pay attention to it...). Oh, I also use it for certain apps - sometimes the enter on the numpad has a slightly different result than the normal enter key (photoshop is one example) and that can be darn useful.
As others have said - it's far easier to use the numpad =-\
-Tallon
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If you watched someone who uses numbers a lot, like an accountant, you will see that they use an adding machine like most people use a keyboard to touch type. They don't look at their hands, they just rapidly punch in the numbers. The keyboard number pad is set up the exact same was as an adding machine, so anyone who is familiar with touch typing on an adding machine can touch type on a keyboard's number pad.
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I use my numpad for first-person shooters! The keys are very conveniently placed and far less cramped than using a WASD layout. (Not to mention it keeps my keyboard hand far, far away from the dreaded Windows key :D) I'm left-handed, so getting rid of the numpad wouldn't bring my trackball closer to me anyway. Plus the numpad is perfectly located for my right hand, which is the keyboard hand for gaming.
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Hmm... Roguelikes, Adobe Creative Suite, as Tallon mentioned, number input when using a ruler to check data or to pass through pages with my left hand. I also have seen me forced to access to /*-+ through the numpad, since I've happened to swap my layouts many times (not because I wanted to though).
But I guess Roguelikes is an important reason, I just can't enjoy them without aligned keys.
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I work in accountancy and the numpad is a godsend.
I had been using my NoFaeces for a month or so at work and trying to use the top row/staggered FN numpad was slowing me down immensely.
Now have the new membrane board that I chucked aside for the Noppoo, and it's that much quicker just because it has a numpad.
Lucky I have a Goldtouch coming from the U.S. very soon to compliment the Poker and M570 trackball...
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I crush columns of numbers with a numpad, speed and accuracy are miles above trying to use the number row.
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Garry's Mod and GTA IV trainers. That's about it.
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A lot of games use numpad for movements to all directions, with 5-numpad as waiting.
Example: Deadly Rooms of Death (http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewsitepage.php?id=90294) (dungeon puzzle game)
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Excel spreadsheet data for lab reports, and I'm changing my major to accounting, so I'm pretty sure I have to use a number pad there.
It's also nice and convenient to have at transcription work when they mention phone numbers and account numbers. I don't use for the number pad for dollar amounts and percentages.
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Garrys Mod is my only reason.
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flyin' dem choppers in gta iv
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My first computer, an IBM PCjr, did not come with a numpad. It also did not come with a mouse. It was already a pretty old computer when my family got it. I noticed other computers I'd seen came with a mouse and their keyboards had more keys and didn't need batteries because they used a cord. I was really, really jealous of people who had computers with such luxuries.
Our next computer, a 386 Packard Bell, oh joy, DID come with a mouse and a full 101-key wired keyboard. Ever since the Packard Bell I used the number pad exclusively for numbers.
Actually, not until my first laptop, a Dell Latitude LX, did I start to use the other number keys. It wasn't until many years of laptop use later that I became proficient.
I am still way, way, way faster at 10-key on the numpad. This was only reinforced when data entry became a daily part of my job for a few years. Entering ten digit invoice IDs an hour a day will do that.
I like having the numpad when I need it. I can really fly on it when the job calls for it.
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the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of having the number pad on the left side of the kb. i'm sure adjusting to entering numbers with my left hand wouldn't be all that bad. It's just because i find my self having to lift my right hand off the keypad to get to the mouse a lot. if i can keep my left hand on the num pad and right hand on the mouse, it would speed things along. maybe it's time i started looking for a leftie kb. Or tenkeyless + external num pad. hmm...
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the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of having the number pad on the left side of the kb.
I think it is on the right because the numpad was originally for data entry and business applications, and pre-date the mouse. Remember those old printing calculators? I think the numpad was supposed to be for people who were used to those.
Of course now that the mouse is the predominate input method today it might make more sense to put the numpad on the left. Then you could mouse around your spreadsheet with your right and change values with your left, never lifting a hand.
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The only game I've used numpad on are MMO's to quickly mark targets. Other than that I use it to input CC's quicker.
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I've had a laptop as my main computer both at work and at home for years and have always had a separate number pad for mainly spreadsheet work. Just so much easier and faster. Up until is year I typed on the laptop keyboard and really didn't know what I'd been missing until I discovered this website. Then I kind of became sucked in and addicted to purchase after purchase to find the best keyboard for me. Although I do have a full sized keyboard at work with the built in number pad, I swap back and forth between two different tenkeyless boards with separate number pads at home. That set up actually gives me the best of both worlds - more centered main keyboard and number pad available when I'm working on spreadsheets.