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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Carter on Wed, 27 April 2011, 13:23:08

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Carter on Wed, 27 April 2011, 13:23:08

Hello,

I am new to the Forums and work for a computer components company. Anyway, we have a keyboard coming out with cherry blues and 12-key rollover achieved through USB. Has this been done by anyone else to date? I have not seen another keyboard boasting this spec with out PS2.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: RiGS on Wed, 27 April 2011, 13:36:12

I have never heard about 12KRO over USB keyboard with cherry blues.
However the Ducky G2/Noppoo are full NKRO over USB, but they aren't compatible with Mac.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Ascaii on Wed, 27 April 2011, 13:36:26

Yes and no...there was a guy over at OTD that managed to write code to make a USB keyboard full KNRO and made it public. That was then "borrowed" by an Asian Manufacturer and sold.
Has this been done in Europe...I don't think so.

Also, if you are looking to get this board reviewed by the best, check out deskthority.net and get in touch with sixty and webwit. They have been reviewing boards for a while now, and have them up on that forum.
And please do give me more info, i would be very interested.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: hcry4 on Wed, 27 April 2011, 13:45:10

Quote from: RiGS;338153

I have never heard about 12KRO over USB keyboard with cherry blues.
However the Ducky G2/Noppoo are full NKRO over USB, but they don't compatible with Mac.

 
I believe Das had 12KRO over USB in a previous version.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Carter on Wed, 27 April 2011, 14:01:24

I saw the DAS but later I think they changed their marketing of the product and only found reviews of it achieving 6KRO

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Wed, 27 April 2011, 14:18:48

Quote from: Carter;338141

Hello,

I am new to the Forums and work for a computer components company. Anyway, we have a keyboard coming out with cherry blues and 12-key rollover achieved through USB. Has this been done by anyone else to date? I have not seen another keyboard boasting this spec with out PS2.

Bro, go google for ''Thermaltake Meka''

BTW, the expected pricing for it? Hope those extra features like USB 12KRO or so on does not jack up the price till unreasonable.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Carter on Wed, 27 April 2011, 15:05:14

Meka is not full size which this one will be.

In comparison:

Meka G1 is USB and 8KRO

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 27 April 2011, 15:25:10

Well, there is the sidewinder x4 which is 26KRO by USB. The reason the Noppoo doesn't work with macs is that it looks like more than one keyboard to the OS. The sidewinder x4 by microsoft did something new, they said they would license the tech used though.

That said, nothing mechanical that I know of does it what I would call correctly.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 27 April 2011, 15:52:11

Quote from: Carter;338185

Meka is not full size which this one will be.

 
What do you mean ?

The layout seem pretty standard, and it's wide 43 cm v.s. 44 cm of my xarmor or filco majestuck, so i presume just differences in bezel size...

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Carter on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:03:09

Not full as in lacking the Numpad + spaced out arrow keys.

There full set KB, the Meka G1 only achieves 8KRO.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:13:31

I don't really see the point of more than 6KRO other than being a marketing gimmick.

I would go with the standard NKRO PS/2 + 6KRO USB to save the time developing something not as on par with say Sidewinder or Choc mini or what have you. Average users will be satisfied with 6KRO (and notice no difference), hardcore ones can go with PS/2 for the port is still widely supported. This way u can still claim it being a gaming keyboard and save the trouble figuring out alternatives.

If your product is to please geekboarders like us, focus more on build quality and keycap quality.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: BucklingSpring on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:32:03

Quote from: pitashen;338310

I don't really see the point of more than 6KRO other than being a marketing gimmick.

LoL Would you prefer the trusted quality of a known manufacturer performing 6KRO or a unknown board performing 12KRO?

Anyhow... Until the complete extinction of the PS2 port, NKRO over PS2 will still be available for hardcore gamers who think KRO means something.
Thus a 12KRO is kind of a moot point for those guys.

Who are you guys?

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:33:50

Quote from: BucklingSpring;338318

Anyhow... Until the complete extinction of the PS2 port, NKRO over PS2 will still be available for hardcore gamers who think KRO means something.
Thus a 12KRO is kind of a moot point for those guys.

Who are you guys?

Thanks for reinforcing my point :P  i thought i was being a bit too harsh.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: BucklingSpring on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:39:45

Quote from: ripster;338321

Microsoft Sidewinder X4 under Win7 SP1 is full NKRO under USB.

Top that.

I thought Mechanical was topping Rubber Dome regardless of the KRO...

 :-)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:47:00

Quote from: ripster;338324

That often happens with Asian companies that don't do the research.

Nor do they care about the niche market of mac.

Ducky is willing to swap out controller for mac users though for those who request. But then its only worth the trouble if one lives in Taiwan.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 27 April 2011, 18:47:02

Quote from: Carter;338304

Not full as in lacking the Numpad + spaced out arrow keys.

There full set KB, the Meka G1 only achieves 8KRO.

 

Are we speaking about the same board ? still looks standard to me....

(http://www.overclockersclub.com/vimages/thermaltake_meka_g1/15.jpg)

(http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FKB104MEB_01.jpg)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Wed, 27 April 2011, 19:03:41

Quote from: ripster;338330

So they HAVE been able to fix it.  Thanks for posting that.

So are newly shipping Noppoos now OSX compatible?  I can stop ragging on them if that is true.

I don't know about Nooppooo boards.

I made a complaint on Ducky's facebook regarding the mac compatibility of their G2 line. They said they are willing to custom install the regular NKRO chip if one requests. I wonder if extra charge applies, I didn't bother asking more. Locally Ducky has been having some pretty good reputations regarding to their customer services. Overseas I doubt they can do much.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Wed, 27 April 2011, 19:11:47

Here I dug out their reply to my mac compatibility complaint: "目前要在MAC上使用，可以跟我們說一下，我們免費幫各位更換晶片組。這邊先跟各位說聲抱歉，不過我們現在已經在做解決方案了。"
so the chink characters says "So far, if you would like to use the keyboard (G2 line) on Mac, we will swap out the chip free of charge upon request. We apologize for the inconvenience. We are currently looking for solutions to get it working on Mac (aka USB NKRO)."

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 27 April 2011, 19:52:23

So they aren't licensing it anymore?

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Wed, 27 April 2011, 22:23:05

Quote from: The Solutor;338327

Are we speaking about the same board ? still looks standard to me....

Show Image

(http://www.overclockersclub.com/vimages/thermaltake_meka_g1/15.jpg)

Show Image

(http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FKB104MEB_01.jpg)

 
No, we are not in the same ship i think...
(http://www.gamerxpot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Thermaltake-Tt-eSPORTS-MEKA-first-G1-mechanical-gaming-keyboard-GamerXpot-1.jpg)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 27 April 2011, 22:52:34

Quote from: Human;338466

No, we are not in the same ship i think...

Show Image

(http://www.gamerxpot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Thermaltake-Tt-eSPORTS-MEKA-first-G1-mechanical-gaming-keyboard-GamerXpot-1.jpg)

 

Ah ok, now its clear.

BTW nice keyboard, not nice as the Filco Mini but nice

(http://www.diatec.co.jp/image_prod/FKB100MNB_02.jpg)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 27 April 2011, 23:48:51

Welcome to Geekhack!

Do you have any pictures?

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Thu, 28 April 2011, 00:21:29

Quote from: The Solutor;338482

Ah ok, now its clear.

BTW nice keyboard, not nice as the Filco Mini but nice

Show Image

(http://www.diatec.co.jp/image_prod/FKB100MNB_02.jpg)

Built quality wise, FILCO should be the winner as the price of the Thermaltake i posted is only about 100USD, i sure FILCO will cost more.

If layout wise, i prefer the one on Thermaltake. I prefer such BIGASS ENTER than the one on FILCO.

Somemore, BIGASS LEFT CTRL also something rare and not often seen(and thus, will face some problem to get replacement keycaps...).

Apart from that, there is also other 2 famous tenkeyless(with numpad) model on TAOBAO that is one from PLUM(less than 50USD) and another from IROCK(about 80+USD).

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Thu, 28 April 2011, 02:18:02

Donald Trump is just doing it for the word of mouth and to increase his business. I don't think he actually wants to run.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 April 2011, 03:56:34

Quote

Built quality wise, FILCO should be the winner as the price of the Thermaltake i posted is only about 100USD, i sure FILCO will cost more.

It's likely. Filco mini seem discontinued but is still available via taobao for something like 70 euro, shipping and import fees excluded, so yes it will cost more.

Quote

If layout wise, i prefer the one on Thermaltake. I prefer such BIGASS ENTER than the one on FILCO.

I prefer by far the correctly shaped enter on the Filco, but the bigass one is not against my religion like the ANSI one.

I like also a lot the latin layout of the japanese keyboards, e.g. is ince to have the @ character not in the "far west" and in first function.

Quote

Apart from that, there is also other 2 famous tenkeyless(with numpad) model on TAOBAO that is one from PLUM(less than 50USD) and another from IROCK(about 80+USD).

I saw both when I searched for filco mini, not very impressed by their design.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 28 April 2011, 05:55:10

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;338193

The reason the Noppoo doesn't work with macs is that it looks like more than one keyboard to the OS.

Weird. Plugging in multiple keyboards on Mac did work when I tried it.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Fri, 29 April 2011, 11:50:03

Just some update on the 80/90% keyboard i stated yesterday.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8323561246
According to the seller's description, that keyboard is able to achieve USB NKRO(not shocked as it is also made in China/Taiwan what...). The strange part is the seller stated that it having ''NKRO'' mode and ''6KRO'' mode(both under USB connection). That's should mean that it is like an Noppoo Choc Mini + normalised mode(6KRO).
From seller:''还有值得一提的是开启n-key Roller后，Scroll Lock按键会不停的闪烁，而关闭n-key Roller，则就不亮。''
human translate ''another point worth talk about is after activate the n-key Roller, Scroll Lock key(i think he should mean ''Light'')will keep blinking/flashing, and after deactivate the n-key Roller, it wont light upp.''
(http://img.article.pchome.net/00/48/67/48/HL050110.JPG)
(http://img.article.pchome.net/00/48/67/48/HL050115.JPG)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Fri, 29 April 2011, 11:54:53

Also, here is another even stranger layout 80% QWERTY keyboard.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8042078700
(http://img2.zol.com.cn/product/28/355/cePciprjwgVw.jpg)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 29 April 2011, 12:05:47

The filco mini is also available trough taobao, altough with a price (750 yuan) which is higher than its original price in japan (8000 Yen)

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7431926867

(http://www.kbfly.com/kbfly/keyboard/filco/images/FKB100MNB_02.jpg)

NKRO or not, sooner or later I'll buy one of them.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 29 April 2011, 14:13:56

Sorry but clone of what ?

They are just keyboards, and they are made with the original switch.

Where's the cloning process ?

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 29 April 2011, 19:33:12

Similar to name brand, but not. So it doesn't matter if they use same switches. In that particular picture that he posted, its layout is almost identical to the minitouch.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Fri, 29 April 2011, 23:47:53

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;339335

Similar to name brand, but not. So it doesn't matter if they use same switches. In that particular picture that he posted, its layout is almost identical to the minitouch.

At least their are having different bigass ENTER. The i-Rock also having bigass Left Ctrl and those Scroll Lock/Cap Lock indicator directly under the key itself(as i suspect, it probably having same OEM as Choc Mini and Ducky 900XG2). That will explain why it also having the USB NKRO thing.

Also, i think it will be hard to find a compatible spacebar for the Majestouch Mini, even harder than finding one for this.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17793&d=1304139122)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sat, 30 April 2011, 01:35:14

That thing is freaking hilarious. Every single function key is bigger than the spacebar

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 30 April 2011, 05:17:39

Quote from: Human;339403

At least their are having different bigass ENTER. The i-Rock also having bigass Left Ctrl and those Scroll Lock/Cap Lock indicator directly under the key itself(as i suspect, it probably having same OEM as Choc Mini and Ducky 900XG2). That will explain why it also having the USB NKRO thing.

Also, i think it will be hard to find a compatible spacebar for the Majestouch Mini, even harder than finding one for this.

The space bar in the photo human posted looks like it's the "standard" 6.25 key widths spacebar found on filco and others. The majestouch mini looks like 4.5 keywidths and those are available from SP (http://keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf) at least.

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;339414

That thing is freaking hilarious. Every single function key is bigger than the spacebar

Actually as big I think would be correct. Probably a very task specific keyboard too, relying heavily on the function keys.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: isp on Sat, 30 April 2011, 05:24:30

Is this relevant to your interests?
[video=youtube;jMjczjhelWM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMjczjhelWM[/video]

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sat, 30 April 2011, 15:27:26

Compare the black function key to the spacebar. It is at least slightly bigger.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 30 April 2011, 15:36:31

Optical illusion at best.  All you need to do is recognize that the bulk of the keys are square.  Two keys wide is the same as two keys high.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Carter on Mon, 02 May 2011, 18:15:19

I cant give you all too many details on who we are because its all still NDA... but we are a very well known computer components company who is just getting into the gaming field similar to Thermaltake. But how does a 12kro - USB / full backlit / Cherry blue & black models / 119.99 USD sound? Built on a Costar board not the iOne cheap crap from Razer

Also looking in to red for the future.... my ultimate goal is to find the feel of the blue with a quiet sound. I am kind of new in the keyboard line, and more familiar with gaming mice / sensors but trying to catch up as fast as I can. Geekhack has been a wonderful place thus far!

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 02 May 2011, 19:08:29

Quote from: Carter;340644

Built on a Costar board not the iOne cheap crap from Razer

 
Razer is cheap but I have high doubts that there is any commonality between razer and iOne, other than the keycaps, do you have any sure source that BW are built by iOne, or it's just the usual urban legend ?

Quote

my ultimate goal is to find the feel of the blue with a quiet sound.

Just ask Cherry to build some cherry beige  (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17357-U9BL-Beige-edition-(clear-switches-brown-springs))for you, it's the only way to have something like a silent cherry blue.

Take a look also here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:17248) and here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards).

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Soarer on Mon, 02 May 2011, 19:09:30

Well... this >6KRO is a dangerous game.

Get it right, and you may sell more units, but people will not pay more for it.

Get it wrong, and at worst your sales will plummet. At best, you lose a selling point, have wasted time developing the feature, and have egg on your face.

12KRO sounds like it would pretend to be 2 keyboards - that method hasn't proven successful. Besides, if you're going to send 16 bytes at a time, why not use a bitmap, and make it NKRO?

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Mon, 02 May 2011, 20:17:18

Leopolds are all tenkeyless though right? Is this full size? If it is, then that might be okay if it's better quality than the razer blackwidow ultimate.

I was going to suggest also clears. If you can get them to do that custom beige that was mentioned it might be good too. Personally I would like blues fine.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: Human on Mon, 02 May 2011, 21:59:56

Quote from: Carter;340644

I cant give you all too many details on who we are because its all still NDA... but we are a very well known computer components company who is just getting into the gaming field similar to Thermaltake. But how does a 12kro - USB / full backlit / Cherry blue & black models / 119.99 USD sound? Built on a Costar board not the iOne cheap crap from Razer

Also looking in to red for the future.... my ultimate goal is to find the feel of the blue with a quiet sound. I am kind of new in the keyboard line, and more familiar with gaming mice / sensors but trying to catch up as fast as I can. Geekhack has been a wonderful place thus far!

Marketed as gaming keyboard huh? Where is the so called ''1000hz'' polling rate and macro keys?
Put it at 100USD(put brown/red/white and i am willing to pay more, if black and blue there is too common in market already and those switch are also well-known for being cheaper) and worldwide availability and I will instantly grab one from you.
BTW, Y U NO CHERRY BROWN OPTION!?!?!??!
Oh wait, you haven tell us what is the keycaps make of. If it is using the same way BW/Xarmor do then i suggest you better release a blank transparent key option. At least there is nothing to be wear off...

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Tue, 03 May 2011, 00:43:36

Quote from: Carter;340644

But how does a 12kro - USB / full backlit / Cherry blue & black models / 119.99 USD sound? Built on a Costar board not the iOne cheap crap from Razer

You'll probably want to do such survey in a more gamer oriented forum for best result.  

But it sounds like a viable choice for average consumers who are interested in getting a cool looking "progamer" mech keyboard.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 03 May 2011, 01:11:54

Quote from: pitashen;340802

You'll probably want to do such survey in a more gamer oriented forum for best result.  

But it sounds like a viable choice for average consumers who are interested in getting a cool looking "progamer" mech keyboard.

Wut? Gaming is talked about all the time here. Just because I like boards that aren't terrible doesn't mean I don't play games. It also doesn't mean I need more than 2KRO. With crouch and jump on the mouse, nothing else needs to be simultaneous. So this is a fine forum to post on. Unless you think he should be somewhere like OCN, where half the people there will question why it's so expensive.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Tue, 03 May 2011, 02:52:23

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;340811

Wut? Gaming is talked about all the time here. Just because I like boards that aren't terrible doesn't mean I don't play games. It also doesn't mean I need more than 2KRO. With crouch and jump on the mouse, nothing else needs to be simultaneous. So this is a fine forum to post on. Unless you think he should be somewhere like OCN, where half the people there will question why it's so expensive.

Ya, to me boards like steelseries or razer black widow are more for people on OCN, hardforum or progaming forum like TeamLiquid,. Places when mech gaming keyboard is mentioned those are the first few brands that pop into their minds.

I could be wrong and biased, but that's just my impression.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: xenonrider on Tue, 03 May 2011, 21:01:59

Quote from: Carter;340644

I cant give you all too many details on who we are because its all still NDA... but we are a very well known computer components company who is just getting into the gaming field similar to Thermaltake. But how does a 12kro - USB / full backlit / Cherry blue & black models / 119.99 USD sound? Built on a Costar board not the iOne cheap crap from Razer

Also looking in to red for the future.... my ultimate goal is to find the feel of the blue with a quiet sound. I am kind of new in the keyboard line, and more familiar with gaming mice / sensors but trying to catch up as fast as I can. Geekhack has been a wonderful place thus far!

 
I think you're missing an opportunity to differentiate yourself in the market.  Why build something that your competitors are making?  It's not like you're going to create something better than what Leopold offers.  

So, here's your opportunity to break away from the pack and make a name for yourself.  What I'm proposing is something that it either going to make your company a leader in the field or file for bankruptcy.  Imagine a keyboard that has Blue, Brown, Red and Black switches on a single board.  Think about that for a second.  Let it sink in.  Make the function keys Cherry Blue's, the numeric pad will be Cherry Reds, the Alpha Numeric keys will be Cherry Browns and the directional, control, alt and other special keys will be Cherry Black.  This would cause an tsunami in the mechanical keyboard world.

Anyway, PM me and let's get to work on this.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 03 May 2011, 21:57:13

Unfortunately that's far too custom. I think that's what you would want.

Personally I want to never have anything to do with linear keys. Especially on the arrow keys. Some games, like RTS' use those instead of WASD, and different switches on the two would be terribly odd.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: The Solutor on Tue, 03 May 2011, 22:15:10

BTW A multiple switches keyboard is not a novelty, other than topre, some one else (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=628) has already managed to try this approach (better approach at least for typing)

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Tue, 03 May 2011, 22:56:53

Quote from: The Solutor;341332

BTW A multiple switches keyboard is not a novelty, other than topre, some one else (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=628) has already managed to try this approach (better approach at least for typing)

ya, Ducky has been selling boards with different combo of 2 type of switches for some time now.

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: pitashen on Wed, 04 May 2011, 02:46:52

Quote from: ripster;341394

Clone the HHKB please.  Put real arrow keys on it while you're at it.

I knew this suggestion would come up at some point :D

Title: 12 - key roll over - USB
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 04 May 2011, 04:08:13

Quote from: The Solutor;341332

BTW A multiple switches keyboard is not a novelty, other than topre, some one else (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=628) has already managed to try this approach (better approach at least for typing)

 
That is an example of literally a person creating a custom board. That is far more custom than what the other guy was suggesting.

Since I don't always hit keys with the same fingers, nor the ones that you're supposed to use, variable weighting like that would just be a giant problem rather than any kind of help. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't do it 100% like you're supposed to.