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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: kaiserreich on Sat, 30 April 2011, 23:55:32

Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sat, 30 April 2011, 23:55:32
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150280684679899&set=a.277536374898.188753.186687294898&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150280684679899&set=a.277536374898.188753.186687294898&type=1&theater)

The above is the original Facebook page of a retailer in Malaysia showing a picture of a FILCO tenkeyless. Their reactions are golden however

(http://i.imgur.com/3dquI.png)
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sun, 01 May 2011, 00:02:09
Well, at least a few of them know what it is. I laugh at the guy who is recommending the logitech keyboard and mouse combo, as if they are excellent examples of things to use.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: jnsjr on Sun, 01 May 2011, 00:10:04
The clickiness of the cherry blue sucked many of my friends in immediately. My gf, not so much.  Favorite conversion moment was when my friend unknowingly started to use my unicomp spacesaver to search for something on google.  After about 10 seconds, he said "Wait a minute... Wait.. YOUR KEYBOARD ACTUALLY CLICKS!!!!"  It was like God descended from the heavesns right in front of him.  Needless to say, he has his own BS keyboard now.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: SuffixTreeMonkey on Sun, 01 May 2011, 03:57:43
Calling the people who are happy with a membrane keyboard "ignorant" is, well ... as hipster as this forum gets these days.

Jokes about this forum aside, I would be recommending something else as well for that price, especially in Malaysia. Waay too expensive, and I'm a rich European bon vivant.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sun, 01 May 2011, 04:14:48
I couldn't came with with another term and "ignorant" kinda stuck. Retrospectively, it might seem to harsh to have used this term. But ignorant kinda sums. Otherwise, how do you refer the people that "Does not know about Mechanical Keyboards" as a single term.

As to the price, the Browns and Blues are priced rather steep even for a Majestouch-2 but the price for the Red is almost about right where it is comparing it with the prices from Amazon, though the Taiwanese give a better price.

While I would recommend something else, I would not be recommending normal rubber domes. Many people in Malaysia are happily paying for their G15s and Razer Rubber Domes. Ignorance is bliss, but when it comes to their opinion normal rubber domes vs Mechanical Keyboards, the reaction gets a little funny and that was my aim in sharing it
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: What is X? on Sun, 01 May 2011, 04:21:55
Quote from: SuffixTreeMonkey;339778
Calling the people who are happy with a membrane keyboard "ignorant" is, well ... as hipster as this forum gets these days.

Jokes about this forum aside, I would be recommending something else as well for that price, especially in Malaysia. Waay too expensive, and I'm a rich European bon vivant.
rubber dome* not membrane.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 06:16:51
I really can't see where the problem is.

There are good and very good membrane keyboards out there and most of them are likely more reliable than a Filco, sometimes at 1/50 of the filco cost.

So you like Filco, we like mechs, it's a reasonable precedence, but forgot that you can call ignorant who has a different preference just because it has spent 5 dollars instead of 160.

Even in the hypotesys that a 5 dollars keyboard will broke 2 times per year (and we all know is not true) whit 160 $ you can buy 32 RD keyboard good for 16 years of usage.

So who is the one that makes the smarter move, who spend 160$ for a single keyboard or who spend 5$ for the cheapest one  ?

Mech keyboards are just a, respectable, personal preference.

Not necessarily a good move, not necessarily the best choice, and this will apply also speaking just about Filcos v.s. cheaper mech keyboards.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:20:14
Quote from: The Solutor;339791
I really can't see where the problem is.

There are good and very good membrane keyboards out there and most of them are likely more reliable than a Filco, sometimes at 1/50 of the filco cost.

So you like Filco, we like mechs, it's a reasonable precedence, but forgot that you can call ignorant who has a different preference just because it has spent 5 dollars instead of 160.

Even in the hypotesys that a 5 dollars keyboard will broke 2 times per year (and we all know is not true) whit 160 $ you can buy 32 RD keyboard good for 16 years of usage.

So who is the one that makes the smarter move, who spend 160$ for a single keyboard or who spend 5$ for the cheapest one  ?

Mech keyboards are just a, respectable, personal preference.

Not necessarily a good move, not necessarily the best choice, and this will apply also speaking just about Filcos v.s. cheaper mech keyboards.

It seems my incorrect usage of terms made it sounded rather harsh and that it has sparked some feelings.

In the context of 5 Dollars vs 160 Dollars keyboard, there is nothing to really compare about. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the case that if someone chose to spend 5 dollars for a keyboard instead of 160 on a FILCO. People want them cheap, and 5 Dollars is about as cheap as you get them, new. In this sense, it seems perfectly fine that one does not choose to spend too much money on their keyboard, which is their choice.

I admit that I am mistaken to have choosed a FILCO vs a Rubber Dome to do a comparison since even I myself thinks that the price for a FILCO in my country is overpriced. I guess I was not thinking much into the the price tag of that FILCO when writing the original post. My original aim was to show the reaction of ordinary folks who get showed a Mechanical Keyboard when in all their life, they only know that their 'Gaming' Keyboards are the best in the whole wide world.

Then I point it to you the 'problem' that you mentioned:
The type of people who thinks their Rubber Dome 'Gaming' Keyboard is the best in the world. This would become a Mech Keyboards vs Rubber Dome Keyboards thing, so it's pretty pointless to say that a Mech Keyboard is better than a 'Gaming' Keyboard in cases where they have the same price range, in GH of all places. So just skip reading this if you want to since I would figure that most people here thinks this way too.

The price of their 'Gaming' Keyboards aren't too far off for a decent/half decent mechanical keyboard. I don't know if you see it in this light, but the people commenting on that facebook page are people like this. I know I'm just making stereotypical conclusions based on my gut feeling, but more often than not, this is the case. And these people, since they do not know of the existence of Mechanical Keyboards, would be, for a lack of a better term, ignorant. As like most cases, there are exceptions, where in some cases, some people use their LCD of the G15 to do their OCing monitor since running programs on extra LCDs affect their Frame Rates for benchmarking. I'll take their word for it, since they are the expert in their field, but as exceptions goes, they are not the kind of people I am referring to.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: Alex on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:31:37
Quote from: kaiserreich;339803
It seems my incorrect usage of terms made it sounded rather harsh and that it has sparked some feelings.

In the context of 5 Dollars vs 160 Dollars keyboard, there is nothing to really compare about. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the case that if someone chose to spend 5 dollars for a keyboard instead of 160 on a FILCO. People want them cheap, and 5 Dollars is about as cheap as you get them, new. In this sense, it seems perfectly fine that one does not choose to spend too much money on their keyboard, which is their choice.

I admit that I am mistaken to have choosed a FILCO vs a Rubber Dome to do a comparison since even I myself thinks that the price for a FILCO in my country is overpriced. I guess I was not thinking much into the the price tag of that FILCO when writing the original post. My original aim was to show the reaction of ordinary folks who get showed a Mechanical Keyboard when in all their life, they only know that their 'Gaming' Keyboards are the best in the whole wide world.

Then I point it to you the 'problem' that you mentioned:
The type of people who thinks their Rubber Dome 'Gaming' Keyboard is the best in the world. This would become a Mech Keyboards vs Rubber Dome Keyboards discussion that most of us know off. So just skip reading this if you want to since I would figure that you would think this way too, in cases where the price of the 'Gaming' keyboard and a Mech Keyboard having the same price range.

The price of their 'Gaming' Keyboards aren't too far off for a decent/half decent mechanical keyboard. I don't know if you see it in this light, but the people commenting on that facebook page are people like this. I know I'm just making stereotypical conclusions based on my gut feeling, but more often than not, this is the case. And these people, since they do not know of the existence of Mechanical Keyboards, would be, for a lack of a better term, ignorant. As like most cases, there are exceptions, where in some cases, some people use their LCD of the G15 to do their OCing monitor since running programs on extra LCDs affect their Frame Rates for benchmarking. I'll take their word for it, since they are the expert in their field, but as exceptions goes, they are not the kind of people I am referring to.

I agree with you about the mechanical keyboards against Logitech gaming keyboards. I have about 5 used G15 and G11 keyboards, they kept breaking on me, and i didn't handle them THAT bad. They survived about one year in average. I grew tired of spending that much money and got myself a SteelSeries 6Gv2 for the same price, hoping it will survive much longer ;)

But cheap rubber domes and laptop scissors keyboards aren't that bad for casual typing and web browsing.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:35:11
@kaiserreich

Ok, ok.

My message was not meant to criticize yours.

Was more meant to look @ the point.

The point should be "to have the best combination of price, durability, typing pleasure, and features"

Then every single person gives a different weight to the points above.

Who is all about price goes for 5/20$ KB

Who is all about durability goes for a model M

Who is about features goes to illuminated KB keyboards, with hubs, media keys volume knobs and so on

No one of the above is right or wrong, simply gives different weights to different features.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:35:35
I think the top of the range Graphic cards are overpriced. But the sweet spot $250-300 ones have a good price for performance ratio that justifies what I spend for them.
Then again, this is what I think last time. I don't game that much these days. Even integrated graphics are good enough for 90% of what I do on my computer.

@Solutor
Your analysis seems more fair and well thought out are reconsideration
I am thinking that if I keep my ways, I'll behave like those i***s in no time. Gotta remind myself to put on their shoes sometimes
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:40:18
Quote from: ripster;339806
I think graphics cards are overpriced.  However everybody at OCN disagrees with me.


Indeed they are

At least the higher end cards are overpriced ,as anything in its sector when  considered top of the line.


A rolex is durable, but how many swatches you can buy with 14k$ ?
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:41:35
Topres/HHKBs are top of the line. Do people think they are overpriced?
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:43:53
Personally I think that the topre's price is completely out of mind, but this was already discussed in another thread.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sun, 01 May 2011, 07:56:20
How much, in ballpark figure, does keyboard collection cost you anyway?

I am thinking that collecting keyboards is a cheaper hobby, compared to maybe....DSLR + an assortment of lenses?
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: woody on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:01:51
Quote from: SuffixTreeMonkey;339778
Calling the people who are happy with a membrane keyboard "ignorant" is, well ... as hipster as this forum gets these days.

The BS Model M is membrane.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: woody on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:03:21
Quote from: kaiserreich;339814
Topres/HHKBs are top of the line.

Based on?
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:04:29
They beat any Cherry keyboard on quality. Typing quality is also pretty high.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: woody on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:07:53
This forum is like fortune cookies.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:08:44
Where's the cookie monster?
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: SuffixTreeMonkey on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:33:46
Quote from: ripster;339819
I buy Topre because I can.

 
From ripster to hipster -- one letter. :o)

Quote from: ch_123
They beat any Cherry keyboard on quality. Typing quality is also pretty high.


On quality? How do you define that? Longevity of board? Price of product?

I wish I had a pot of gold to get the Topre and make the comparison myself. But I think there are high-quality rubber domes (some Cherrys I used were great) and high quality Cherry switch keyboards and high quality capacitative ones and you can't simply dismiss one approach to switches as "low quality".

Typing quality -- same thing. How do you compare it? Typing speed? Comfort? I think the second is rather subjective to compare and the first line becomes blurry at higher speeds.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 01 May 2011, 08:48:21
By build quality (construction quality of keyboard, quality of keycaps, quality of keycaps printing), and the durability of the switching design (I've yet to see or hear of a Topre switch being disabled by a hair).

I'd say they'd withstand water damage better, but I'm not quite willing to carry out that experiment :P

Typing quality? Certainly smoother, and doesn't bottom out as hard. Cherry switches have the advantage of not bottoming out as easily though.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: drsauced on Sun, 01 May 2011, 10:00:07
I've let my coworkers try out every one of my keyboards, mostly because I have them shipped there.  Lots of folks know about the 'old-school' Model M, but many of them were most impressed with the Leopold with MX Blues.  One person really, really liked the Filco with MX Browns, which in a fit of pity I gave to him to replace the Logitech he had been using.  Well, long, sad story he went back to the Logitech, "the Filco was a little bit too small for my desk."  Ah, well, no detail too small for the budding interior decorator.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: igro on Sun, 01 May 2011, 10:25:49
Quote from: kaiserreich;339779
...Otherwise, how do you refer the people that "Does not know about Mechanical Keyboards" as a single term.
...

Uninformed
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: drsauced on Sun, 01 May 2011, 10:34:47
The Great Unwashed.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: theferenc on Sun, 01 May 2011, 11:00:05
Actually, ignorant is quite accurate.

ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.

It's sad that it is seen as a negative word, when it really just means you haven't been exposed to an idea or topic. Lack of knowledge is not a bad thing. Willful ignorance is.

Most people are simply unaware that better options exist, especially in newly produced models. Or, they are perfectly happy with the option they have, and so choose not to look further. Nothing wrong with that, but that does leave them, definitionally, ignorant. In most cases, it is simply lack of curiosity more than anything else.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 11:02:13
Quote
Typing quality? Certainly smoother, and doesn't bottom out as hard


Basically you like topre because feels like a rubber dome :happy:
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 11:06:41
Quote from: theferenc;339871
Actually, ignorant is quite accurate.

ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.

It's sad that it is seen as a negative word, when it really just means you haven't been exposed to an idea or topic. Lack of knowledge is not a bad thing. Willful ignorance is.

Most people are simply unaware that better options exist, especially in newly produced models. Or, they are perfectly happy with the option they have, and so choose not to look further. Nothing wrong with that, but that does leave them, definitionally, ignorant. In most cases, it is simply lack of curiosity more than anything else.

 

Yes works exactly as in Italian language.

The term is absolutely neutral, but often (if not almost always) is used as negative term.

If used as is originally meant the term ignorant, here fits perfectly.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 01 May 2011, 11:37:53
Quote from: The Solutor;339872
Basically you like topre because feels like a rubber dome :happy:

 
Let's see, rubber domes...

Smooth? No.
Soft botttoming out? No.

God, someone needs to make up some new Topre trolls, the current ones are getting stale.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 12:06:18
Quote from: ch_123;339877
Let's see, rubber domes...

Smooth? No.

 

It depends on the shape of the dome.

You can get almost any response from a rubber dome.

So there are rubber domes that are smooth, stiff, soft, tactile, almost linear, silent and so on

Quote
Soft botttoming out? No


Yes, it's the main advantage of any rubber dome (topre included) over the microswitch keyboards.

Quote
God, someone needs to make up some new Topre trolls, the current ones are getting stale.


I think that someone has to speak about it's personal preferences, as personal preferences and not as constitutional laws.

Treat topre as they are: good rubber dome keyboards, built with good plastics and strict tolerances, based on a sensor instead of an electrical contact.

That's all.

Someone likes them, someone dislikes them as any other kind of keyboard.

Surely the price has no relation with they quality and even less to the productive method.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 01 May 2011, 12:18:59
Quote from: The Solutor;339889
Yes, it's the main advantage of any rubber dome (topre included) over the microswitch keyboards.


Have you ever typed on a keyboard before? I'm starting to have my doubts at this stage.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 01 May 2011, 12:26:53
Quote
Have you ever typed on a keyboard before? I'm starting to have my doubts at this stage.


I think since 1973, was a QZERTY Olivetti Lettera 32.

(http://www.pu-casagrande.it/olivetti_lettera32.jpg)

BTW *discussion* forums are made to share opinions.

So sarcasm is really unneeded here.


So if you have any info I missed to share, I'm all ears.

If you want just to spread a bit of topre fanboism I'm not in your boat anymore.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sun, 01 May 2011, 14:26:47
Thank you, theferenc. The rest of the first page I was quite annoyed with people decrying the use of the term, then saying that people who make the choice to use those don't deserve to be called ignorant. It is clear that almost all of the negative comments about it and its price on the facebook thing are from people who have no idea that keyboards like these exist. That is nowhere close to the same thing as having made a choice.

To even make a conscious decision about rubber domes vs mechanical, I think someone has to use a mechanical for a month or two and then have it taken away. Then a choice will be made. Just telling them about it or showing them one for 5 seconds isn't enough time with it to really make an informed choice.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: HaveANiceDay on Sun, 01 May 2011, 15:01:52
In this thread: Different opinions. Readers beware!
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: gilgam on Sun, 01 May 2011, 15:24:24
better be an ignorant than an *******  (an old french proverb):bump2:
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: pitashen on Sun, 01 May 2011, 15:35:49
Why bother being bothered?

Some are happy with integrated sound card, coz as long as the computer makes noises, they are at peace.
Some are happy with integrated GPU, coz as long as the computer output images, they are at peace.
Some are happy with 100dpi mouse, coz as long as the cursor moves, they are at peace.
Some are happy with 5 bucks crapboard, coz as long as they could input letters, they are at peace.

Its hard for them to look further when they are already satisfied with what they already have without experiencing the better.

Leave them alone.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: Culinia on Sun, 01 May 2011, 17:40:01
Quote from: ripster;339897
This is where Vbulletin 4.0 Hulu support comes into it's own..

"We're sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed within the United States. For more information on Hulu's international availability, click here."

That's discrimination.
 
discrimination

Pronunciation:/dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
noun
[mass noun]
1 the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race , age, or sex:
victims of racial discrimination
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sun, 01 May 2011, 18:47:47
Actually, that's just advertising. It's how they get funded. What advertising company in their right mind would want to pay to show ads to people who can't buy their product? Nobody.

It's also media rights. They wouldn't have them in each and every country, it's even possible even more local stuff than that is a problem.

They have to try hard to get the rights they have just in the US, they'd have to line that and local advertisers up for each and every area. So that's a giant headache, not discrimination.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: brkim1324 on Sun, 01 May 2011, 22:24:40
lol that was funny. It's like watching kindergardens XD
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Mon, 02 May 2011, 03:13:01
Wrong? The people at Hulu don't work for free. They don't get rights to anything for free. They have to pay someone for them, and hopefully also make enough to keep the site running.

I am talking from the frame of reference of how the site exists today. So my statement is very much correct. Things like Hulu Plus are only in addition to that. The entire site is based on one target market. If they showed the videos, and thereby the ads, to anywhere else it would be a waste of those advertisers dollars. So yes, it very much would be them paying to show people ads that are irrelevant to them.

Heck, the only reason they have enough rights to what they already show is because they were created by two TV networks. Of course they have rights to their own stuff. Anything past that is complicated to do.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: dracaXL on Mon, 02 May 2011, 09:01:57
Quote from: The Solutor;339902
I think since 1973, was a QZERTY Olivetti Lettera 32.

Show Image
(http://www.pu-casagrande.it/olivetti_lettera32.jpg)


BTW *discussion* forums are made to share opinions.

So sarcasm is really unneeded here.


So if you have any info I missed to share, I'm all ears.

If you want just to spread a bit of topre fanboism I'm not in your boat anymore.

 
Blam!
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: pitashen on Mon, 02 May 2011, 11:08:54
We people are simply spoiled by the internet.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: Evil_Spork on Tue, 03 May 2011, 02:35:09
Quote from: kaiserreich;339814
Topres/HHKBs are top of the line. Do people think they are overpriced?

 
Yes.
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: captain on Mon, 23 April 2012, 08:16:25
Quote from: gilgam;339974
better be an ignorant than an *******  (an old french proverb):bump2:

I think you meant "then" not "than".  ;-P



Quote from: The Solutor;339902
I think since 1973, was a QZERTY Olivetti Lettera 32.

Show Image
(http://www.pu-casagrande.it/olivetti_lettera32.jpg)




Wow!  That is a nice looking typewriter.  Do you have any sample text from it?


Is it naptime?
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 23 April 2012, 08:36:19
Quote
The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant

(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/maxwell_smart__confused.gif)
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: kaiserreich on Mon, 23 April 2012, 08:50:23
Quote from: keyboardlover;579650
Show Image
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/maxwell_smart__confused.gif)

:behindsofa:
Title: The reaction you get when you show a FILCO to the ignorant
Post by: Nates13 on Mon, 23 April 2012, 10:04:53
most people I show mech boards to come back with "well yeah I feel it but.......well I don't get it", or some variant of that.  they're usually much more impressed if it has some sort of backlighting.