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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Plump on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:02:38

Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:02:38
Good morning GeekHack !

I'm new here, first post and everything, although I've been sailing the forum and wiki for a few weeks now. I think I get the main point of mechanical keyboards, but I still find it difficult to actually choose, so I guess it's time to ask for help, I heard there were a few passionate people around here... :rolleyes:

Here's my scenario : in a few months, I'll be purchasing a new computer. As the only PC I ever owned was the laptop I'm using right now, I need a keyboard to go with it, and I decided to go for a mechanical one. I can't remember how I first heard about it, but one thing is sure, I won't be able to buy a rubber dome one after such a discovery.
Main issue : the price. It's going to be my first mechanical keyboard (yes, I heard about those "drug addiction" things, but still...) and I don't intend to put 150 $/€ in it. That's just way above my budget. Luckily, there seems to be some keyboards which don't cost more than 80-90 $.

My question is : is it worth it ? Considering the fact that it is going to be the first one, that I never had any experience with one before, are those "low price" mechanical keyboards worth it ? It seems like they are not that well designed/manufactured... I'll be gaming with it, mainly, and I know that while gaming I tend to hammer down on the keys like there is no tomorrow. I don't want the keys to get jamed weeks after I start using them : a mechanical keyboard is also attractive because it's robust.

As many people seem to think so around here, I guess the key type is a question of taste. I think that what will best suit me is the Cherry MX blue type. As I hit hard on the keys, I think I won't have any double-clicking issue whatsoever. Cherry clear is cool, too, but pretty rare nowadays, I heard ?

Another main issue for me is the reseller. I'm not used to purchasing stuff online, so I don't really know if every reseller has abroad shipping... For example, will an american reseller ship a keyboard to France ? It must be as expensive as the keyboard itself.

Considering all of this, the only keyboard that fits is, apparently, the Razer Black Widow. Mechanical, Cherry blue, french resellers, 80€. And I can find it in "azerty", which is great.

Considering that it is Razer, that keyboards aren't really their specialty, that they tend to advertise around useless things such as "1000Hz Ultrapolling/1ms response time", is a 80€ Black Widow a good deal ? According to feedback I found here and there, it seems to have a good value for money : it IS a mechanical keyboard, at low price. What do you think ?

And if you think poorly of it, are there other keyboards which could meet my requirements ? What about the Rosewill RK-9000 ?

Thank you in advance for your answers, advice and feedback ! :smile:
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: noodles256 on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:03:51
wlcm 2 gh!

Blackwidow is a good first choice, it was my second board and I couldn't have been happier with it!
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:37:30
bonjour

Elite Keyboards sell to france, and The keyboard co too

Razer keyboards are quite good but if you want a cheaper one, you can find some Cherry keyboard on Materiel.net, and on German reseller (i bought my cherry clear from one of them cheaper but in QWERTZ layout).

You can test some ebay seller too for a buckling spring (a model m), it's a very nice keyboard and you can get azerty keycaps from US seller.
ON ebay you can find others Cherry style like compag MX11800, G80-3000/g80-1800 and you can get the raptor gaming K1, very nice for getting a nice keyboard and very nice double shots keycaps

Si tu veux il y a un forum en français sur deskthority qui se lance ou pas mal de gens qui fréquentent GH sont aussi présents http://deskthority.net/viewforum.php?f=21
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: BucklingSpring on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:39:51
Quote from: gilgam;349879
ON ebay you can find others Cherry style like compag MX11800, G80-3000/g80-1800 and you can get the raptor gaming K1, very nice for getting a nice keyboard and very nice double shots keycaps

 
+1 - Très bon conseil.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: mmmty on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:44:21
You might want a keyboard with Cherry Black. At 60g, it has more resistance to your pounding.

SteelSeries 6GV2
http://steelseries.com/products/keyboards/steelseries-6gv2
(http://cdn-web.steelseries.com/wp-content/uploads/productpage_6gv2_big.png)

Thermaltake Meka G1
http://usa.ttesports.com/products/product.aspx?s=18
(http://i.imgur.com/Pj7Gl.jpg)
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Sun, 22 May 2011, 13:45:06
Quote from: BucklingSpring;349881
+1 - Très bon conseil.
Merci :-)

I just saw one sold at 25 euros !! for azerty cherry double shot keycaps and keyboard it's a fantastic deal

http://cgi.ebay.fr/RAPTOR-GAMING-K1-Pro-Gamer-USB-Keyboard-French-Layout-/160579567914?pt=M%C3%A4use_Tastaturen&hash=item256349c12a
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: foliolio on Sun, 22 May 2011, 14:14:08
Quote from: gilgam;349885
Merci :-)

I just saw one sold at 25 euros !! for azerty cherry double shot keycaps and keyboard it's a fantastic deal

http://cgi.ebay.fr/RAPTOR-GAMING-K1-Pro-Gamer-USB-Keyboard-French-Layout-/160579567914?pt=M%C3%A4use_Tastaturen&hash=item256349c12a


Just won a new German layout one (QWERTZ) for 25,01 euros (+4,10€ shipping) from eBay.

(http://www.saunalahti.fi/leust/mikke_dwi.gif)

Got it for the purpose of studying the construction, with a tentative plan of purchasing a G80-1865 with red switches if I found the build-quality acceptable.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: baller1308 on Sun, 22 May 2011, 15:06:50
I haven't personally owned a Razer keyboard but I've read a few bad things about them.  So I would check some reviews and see if it's still worth buying.  I would honestly pay a little bit more and get a better reviewed product.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: jpz on Sun, 22 May 2011, 15:23:40
What type of gaming do you do and do you mind the keyboard clicking?  When you are gaming think about how many keys you are pressing down and where.  The blackwidow has a 3kro but that could be fine for you if you are doing a mmo or something like that.  The blues are click and are tactile where the blacks stated above are linear nonclicky.  If it is possible try finding a shop that will let you try out the keyboards and see what you like.

**edited thx noodles256
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: noodles256 on Sun, 22 May 2011, 15:40:45
you mean blacks?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Sun, 22 May 2011, 15:48:47
Quote from: foliolio;349904
Just won a new German layout one (QWERTZ) for 25,01 euros (+4,10€ shipping) from eBay.

Show Image
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/leust/mikke_dwi.gif)


Got it for the purpose of studying the construction, with a tentative plan of purchasing a G80-1865 with red switches if I found the build-quality acceptable.


I bid on that one, sorry to have made that one more expensive ...
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: foliolio on Sun, 22 May 2011, 15:53:06
Quote from: gilgam;349959
I bid on that one, sorry to have made that one more expensive ...

You didn't have to tell me that. :(

Oh well, guess it was still a fair deal.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Sun, 22 May 2011, 16:28:23
Quote from: foliolio;349904

Got it for the purpose of studying the construction, with a tentative plan of purchasing a G80-1865 with red switches if I found the build-quality acceptable.

It's pcb monted so you can convert it to a ghetto red switch, a nice and easy conversion IMHO.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Sun, 22 May 2011, 17:06:42
Thank you gilgam for the feedback on resellers, I'll keep an eye on them.

The thing is, I really want to try something other than Cherry Black. I feel like I won't enjoy a linear type as much as a tactile or a clicky one. The idea of feeling the mechanical device under the fingers is quite appealing... Sadly I won't be able to try keyboards in stores, so I rely on the reviews found here, and I chose to go for blues...

I don't play any fps, the two main things I will be doing with my computer are RTS and Diablo 3. I don't aim for master league in Starcraft 2, so I guess a 3KRO is okay, the day I need more I'll just change it. That's why in theory the Black Widow seemed pretty good. I did search for reviews and tests on this keyboard, and the main reported issues were the fact that the glossy effect gets dirty very quickly, and this 3KRO limitation.

Is it possible to replace any type of cherry switch with each other ? For example, finding a G80-3000 around 60€ and replacing the blacks with blues... Is it something easily done ?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Titmouse on Sun, 22 May 2011, 18:27:27
Have you considered the blue Duckys on PCHome (http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=store&func=style_show&SR_NO=DCAH22&tm=u)? They are about $75 + $20 shipped to Europe. I'm using a blue keyboard now. The tactile feel and the clicky noise make typing so, like others have said, fun. If you are thinking about the blues, I think you should definitely try it.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Zet on Sun, 22 May 2011, 23:23:27
Welcome to GeekHack,

I would suggest getting a Leopold but shipping might be pricey ... (from EliteKeyboards), you might also want to give Das Keyboard a check. They are basically similar on features to a Black Widow(not ultimate, so no back lighting either), no macro keys, but many more people found Das Keyboard better quality build than Razer BW. They both have glossy/scratchy top, but Das keyboard doesn't have problems with the keycaps, and also you could get a ultimate layout and have the keycaps without any lettering on it (which would be nice if you use different layouts and know them well)

About your switch choice, I noted you wanted blues, but depending on how hard you hit your keys you really might want to consider Blacks... although the sound and feel of blues must be something really nice (haven't tried them myself yet), also note, depending where you play/type since although you love the clicky sound, others may get pissed off ;)
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 23 May 2011, 07:19:29
You know, if you want tactile+clicky, and you want stiff... why is the Model M not in play, here?

1391402 is one of the AZERTY part numbers.

Or, it's $79 plus shipping for a Unicomp SpaceSaver 105... not sure how much shipping is, though.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Mon, 23 May 2011, 08:22:09
47 dollars, plus taxes and charges so it gives a 130 dollars ...
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Mon, 23 May 2011, 08:56:39
Quote from: Plump;349991
Thank you gilgam for the feedback on resellers, I'll keep an eye on them.

I don't play any fps, the two main things I will be doing with my computer are RTS and Diablo 3. I don't aim for master league in Starcraft 2, so I guess a 3KRO is okay, the day I need more I'll just change it. That's why in theory the Black Widow seemed pretty good. I did search for reviews and tests on this keyboard, and the main reported issues were the fact that the glossy effect gets dirty very quickly, and this 3KRO limitation.

Is it possible to replace any type of cherry switch with each other ? For example, finding a G80-3000 around 60€ and replacing the blacks with blues... Is it something easily done ?

yes, with two boards ne blue one black i made a ghetto red (black stem and blue spring) and another one with bvlack spriongs and blue stem (a clicky quite stiff but maybe nice) it takes one minute per switch to do that with the good easy to find tools.

There is the IBM buckling spring, i touched my first one few days ago and it's very fine,
3KRO i don't know ...
Are you near paris ?
you can try some keyboards if you want to ...
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Son of Gnome on Tue, 24 May 2011, 06:38:28
Quote from: mmmty;349884
You might want a keyboard with Cherry Black. At 60g, it has more resistance to your pounding.

SteelSeries 6GV2
http://steelseries.com/products/keyboards/steelseries-6gv2
Show Image
(http://cdn-web.steelseries.com/wp-content/uploads/productpage_6gv2_big.png)


Thermaltake Meka G1
http://usa.ttesports.com/products/product.aspx?s=18
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Pj7Gl.jpg)

 
ahh the good old bike lock keyboard :)
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: mmmty on Tue, 24 May 2011, 08:59:34
That's extra feature among other things it can be used for.
It's a pretty good keyboard but the cable...
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Zet on Tue, 24 May 2011, 09:56:50
I never knew the Meka G1 cable was like that, I'm really liking the looks of it :)
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Tony on Tue, 24 May 2011, 10:03:51
Yes, the cable of the Thermaltake G1 is so big that it can easily discourage cats, dogs and mice alike.

My first mech keyboard is an old Compaq MX 11800 brown keyboard with price under 20usd. If you are lucky enough to get it in your city, then it's the best bang for the bucks you pay.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: daerid on Tue, 24 May 2011, 10:30:20
After going the whole "all in one approach" with the Lycosa, I honestly would prefer a keyboard that's just a keyboard. I already have usb ports and audio on the front of my keyboard.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Tue, 24 May 2011, 11:07:22
Quote
Are you near paris ?
you can try some keyboards if you want to...

Alas... I'm near Besançon, maybe I'll try and look for a good store, but I doubt any will have mech keyboards.

Quote
yes, with two boards ne blue one black i made a ghetto red (black stem and blue spring) and another one with bvlack spriongs and blue stem (a clicky quite stiff but maybe nice) it takes one minute per switch to do that with the good easy to find tools.

That's very interesting, since many here think I should go for black switches, if I can get tactile/clicky blacks, that may be perfect... Is it possible to purchase keys only, or do I have to find another keyboard to dismantle ?


After reading the different answers, I looked more thoroughly into the wiki reviews, and I'm now pretty sure I don't want to go for a Razer anymore... ^^ The way key caps wear out is bugging me.

The Rosewill RK-9000 looks pretty awesome, both quality and cheap. I know it is sold out in retail stores, but anyway, is there a way to get one shipped to europe ? Neither Elite Keyboards nor The Keyboard Company sell them, I'm still looking for other retailers...

Other than that, thank you Titmouse for the PCHouse tip, this may be a good way to find cheaper keyboards, since a 20$ shipping is almost given.

On PCHome, there are mainly Duckys. I see they are cheaper, but since they are so cheap, wouldn't it be preferable to go for a Das ? As Zet said, they are sturdier and via PCHome I could get one for roughly the same price as a Razer in France...
Can anyone confirm that this one : http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAD80-A46200927&SR_NO=DCAH22&ROWNO=15&tm=u (http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAD80-A46200927&SR_NO=DCAH22&ROWNO=15&tm=u) is a Das "S" ?

Other than that : concerning the IBM model M, for such a price I'd rather go for a new keyboard, less bad surprises... And that Meka G1 give me the same feeling as Razer : same kind of marketing (1000 Hz polling, seriously...), except its price is much higher...

And last question : a 3190 NT$ keyboard, plus 20 US$ shipping, that's about 92€, right ?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Titmouse on Tue, 24 May 2011, 13:29:09
The text says it has the blue switch. So it does look like the Das S, except it has extra Chinese characters on the keys. Your exchange rate math seems right, as well, according to google.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: daerid on Wed, 25 May 2011, 11:52:46
Tactile/Clicky blacks? What about using a black spring with a blue stem? anybody tried that? Or would those just essentially be MX Greens?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Thu, 26 May 2011, 06:25:51
Quote from: ripster;350812
Can't you get Cherry G80-3000's for Cheap in France?

I looked around quite a bit, either I'm not searching in the right place, either those cheap G80s are hiding. Best bargain I found was a $110 MX Black, shipping not included. I don't know if this is cheap...

I'd love to try this ghetto green customization, but first I must get a keyboard. Is it possible to find keys alone, without the keyboard/case ?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: daerid on Thu, 26 May 2011, 14:19:11
Quote from: Plump;350732
Can anyone confirm that this one : http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAD80-A46200927&SR_NO=DCAH22&ROWNO=15&tm=u (http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAD80-A46200927&SR_NO=DCAH22&ROWNO=15&tm=u) is a Das "S" ?

 
Yeah, that's a Das Keyboard, but I'm pretty sure it's not the most recent model. The latest run of Das Keyboards don't have the media keys on the Function keys
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: mmmty on Thu, 26 May 2011, 14:25:36
(http://ec1img.pchome.com.tw/pic/v1/data/item/201009/D/C/A/D/8/0/DCAD80-A46200927000_4ca4565761e6f)

That looks like the combination of these 2:

(http://www.daskeyboard.com/images/products/2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Pj7Gl.jpg)
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Thu, 26 May 2011, 14:26:33
Quote from: daerid;351738
Yeah, that's a Das Keyboard, but I'm pretty sure it's not the most recent model. The latest run of Das Keyboards don't have the media keys on the Function keys

Does that mean it could be the "not fixed" version of the keyboard, as according to this review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8300) ?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: gilgam on Thu, 26 May 2011, 16:16:25
you can get some g80-3000 at materiel.net in blues or black, and with german layout in blue, black and clears on german websites (universal computer or something like that)
For about 45 ro 80 euros.

I have a nearly complete ghetto green keyboard on the way (from a mix to get some ghetto red)
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Thu, 26 May 2011, 18:34:23
Quote from: gilgam;351786
you can get some g80-3000 at materiel.net in blues or black, and with german layout in blue, black and clears on german websites (universal computer or something like that)

I couldn't find any blue switches keyboard on materiel.net, except for the Black Widow. And the German website you are mentioning must be computeruniverse.net, I found those g80 all right, thank you.
I think I'll go for the Das found on PCHome, my final concern being the reliability of the website : if something goes wrong, I don't feel too confident in speaking chinese...
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: daerid on Thu, 26 May 2011, 18:40:17
Quote from: Plump;351746
Does that mean it could be the "not fixed" version of the keyboard, as according to this review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8300) ?

I believe that is correct.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Thu, 26 May 2011, 18:54:40
Taking into account the fact that this review is more than a year old, the chances for it to be a faulty board are pretty low... or not ?
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: daerid on Thu, 26 May 2011, 20:12:02
I ordered my Das Keyboard direct from Metadot last December, and it's been rock solid. Construction is top notch. Couldn't comment on the specific one you linked, but if it was manufactured within the last year, it's a safe bet that it's a good one.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: foliolio on Fri, 27 May 2011, 11:31:01
Quote from: foliolio;349904
Just won a new German layout one (QWERTZ) for 25,01 euros (+4,10€ shipping) from eBay.

Show Image
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/leust/mikke_dwi.gif)


Got it for the purpose of studying the construction, with a tentative plan of purchasing a G80-1865 with red switches if I found the build-quality acceptable.


Just received my Raptor, some quick observations:

- the 'board feels somewhat light but very sturdy
- it's the german layout one - with lasered keys :( (was hoping for doubleshots)
- after 10 minutes, I'm liking it immensely better than SS 6Gv2; thicker keycaps and better overall "smoothness"

For 29,11€, I don't think I could have done a whole lot better, these babies are worth keeping an eye on on the eBay.
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Plump on Fri, 27 May 2011, 14:49:21
@ foliolio :

Yet again I'm pretty sure the Raptor features MX Blacks, doesn't it ? I'll wait to get enough experience with blues to try something else. If I ever do. Ghetto green. :cool:


Quote from: ripster;351859
They're still using the same pic on Amazon so I think it's unlikely the pic is right.


Quote from: daerid;351868
I ordered my Das Keyboard direct from Metadot last December, and it's been rock solid. Construction is top notch. Couldn't comment on the specific one you linked, but if it was manufactured within the last year, it's a safe bet that it's a good one.

 
The last two nails on the coffin, I'm sold. I'll get it in a few weeks. Thanks all for your time and advice ! :redface:
Title: Newbie incoming, in need of some advice
Post by: Titmouse on Fri, 27 May 2011, 15:20:36
Cool! Let us know how you like the Das. The blue switch is addictive.