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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Obsidian on Mon, 23 May 2011, 04:28:46
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Hi guys
I am looking at purchasing a mechanical keyboard, and I'm struggling a bit to work out what the right thing to do is. I suffer from pain at the base of my index fingers when typing a lot, and I figure that a mechanical keyboard with a lighter feel might really help with this compared to what I currently use (a Microsoft Ergonomic 4000). I would be using the keyboard for typing and gaming (mostly RTS at the moment, though I dabble in all genres), and I am thinking that Cherry Brown switches would probably suit me the best, particularly due to their "lightness". Does that sound sensible? The big problem I am finding is that there is no way of trying out the boards in advance, as it is not the sort of thing that retailers keep in stock...
Also, I am based in the UK and this also seems to limit my choice. Is there an alternative to the Filco with Cherry Browns from Keyboard co that I can source in this country? It's a rather expensive board, and I would prefer something a little cheaper if possible.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me. This is a great little forum you have here :)
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STOP TYPING!(?) (http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~cscott/rsi.html) :P
Just kidding.
Besides KB, mouse is another causative factor of RSI.
Red switch is also a good choice. They both are worthwhile to your fingers.
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In fairness it hasn't actually been diagnosed as RSI, and I suspect it may be tendonitis. But I am striving to reduce some computer use, develop better habits and posture, as well as looking at my hardware. I am also using a graphics tablet instead of a mouse where possible.
I have looked at Reds, but since I will be doing a decent amount of typing (I have a thesis to finish) I think the feedback of Browns will be more pleasant to use. Hard to be certain without trying them out of course!
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Brown is fantastic to type, it is my daily driver as well. You won't go wrong with it.
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Brown is fantastic to type, it is my daily driver as well. You won't go wrong with it.
seconded.
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I also have pain associated with typing. For me, the best economical choice was Browns but the best in the West is Topre. I have them both and recommend either but if you can afford it, I'd go with the Topre(variable weight) everytime. I like a nice tactile, yet lighter switch, so either does it for me. I don't touch type and can't justify the cost of Reds. I like to bottom out and so, the choices I listed are it. They both deliver a nice light yet tactile feel that doesn't tire my hands/wrists.
I actually started out with a Unicomp Space Saver and loved it but it was too heavy for my achey wrists, so the lighter switches made sense and it didn't take me long to get used to them.
I have Blues and they're fine but better still are the Browns/Topre.
I like to write and could do a full page w/o complaint for the first time in my recent years of this RSI deal. Also, the rubber dome I had was killing me. My hands would literally lock up afte a few minutes of typing. I will never go back or recommend them. You did the right thing coming to the mechies. =)
My experience anyway.
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Another thing to look at is learning an alternate layout to QWERTY like Dvorak or Colemak. I'm actually trying to learn Colemak just recently, albeit very slowly. Even though I'm just learning, I can tell how much less finger movement there is compared to QWERTY. So much more words can be typed from home row. I chose Colemak over Dvorak because I'm left handed and find Dvorak to be very right hand centric.
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Pain at the base of your index fingers -- check your technique. Are you moving your fingers from side to side a lot? Are you reaching "across the aisle" and typing left-handed letters with your right index finger? Do you reach up for a lot of function keys? Did you learn formal typing technique or did you just evolve your own technique from early hunt-and-pecking?
I'm just guessing, but I wonder if you're overreaching and overworking your index fingers. Pressing wiggly worn-out rubber dome keys is hard enough, but actuating them at an angle because of reaching is even worse. Even if you just think about approximating "home row" technique and position as you're tying, you might find that you don't strain yourself as much.
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If the Filco is pushing the budget envelope, then I guess the Kinesis Contoured boards are going to be way too expensive, but if you're used to using a MS 4000 split and want Browns, they are worth a look.
UK Reseller from Kinesis site (http://www.ergonomics.co.uk/iqs/dbitemid.70/sfa.view/ergonomic_keyboards.html)
Might be awkward for gaming, though.
In general, though a good mechanical board certainly helps reduce typing strain, nothing helps more than making sure you take adequate breaks. It seems like such an obvious thing, but it really is easy to overlook when you're engrossed in whatever you're doing on the computer.
I recommend Workrave (http://www.workrave.org/) as a great free rest break reminder application.
I also keep a tin of stress putty (http://www.puttyworld.com/) on the desk to help loosen up / exercise my hands every now and then.
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If you're using a Microsoft Ergonomic 4k, I'd bet your finger pain is related to the key action. It's pretty heavy rubber dome, and you are probably bottoming out every time (which is basically impossible not to do with that keyboard). I have two of them and love the layout, but not the keyfeel.
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if you're moving from a microsoft ergo 4k to a mech keyboard to relieve stress... you might not find what you are looking for. I used the microsoft ergo 4k for 4/5 years, then decided to try mech, went with a crappy alps and i "got" the pain of rsi again within one week of usage, then i tried again with 2 ml4100's in a "split" fashion it didn't work well. I just had too much muscle memory with the microsoft 4k.
really, if you're used the microsoft 4k placement think about what you are giving up going to a mech keyboard, it might cause you more stress in the end, it did for me.
*edit*
until i made my own board that is.
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I both my browns and my reds. I'd equally recommend each one for RSI. I have tendon issues in both of my hands from rock climbing and vastly prefer lighter switches to alleviate any pain caused from typing. They're both just as light for my hands, just have a different feel. Entirely depends on your preference at that point.
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(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1045/rsibook.jpg)
(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6895/rsiclaims.jpg)
This book may be helpful to you:
Complete Guide to Repetitive Strain Injury, Emil Pascarelli, PhD
http://www.mediafire.com/?kgnxwv8kpnghg48
Some excerpts
Computer keyboards
No other piece of computer equipment has had more design research and gone through more style changes than the computer keyboard. Research has focused on key placement, size, adjustability, touch, key pressure, and technical design. Still, the keyboard that suits everyone has not yet appeared.
What kind of keyboard should you buy? Choosing a keyboard can be confusing, as there are so many available at a wide range of prices. When you buy a new computer, it comes with a standard keyboard, and if it is not comfortable or is causing you pain, you will want to get one that suits your needs better. As mentioned in chapter 2, the elbow carrying angle, which varies from person to person, will affect the way you place your handsas you hit the keys. The greater your carrying angle, the greater the likelihood that you will need a split keyboard. In any case, I believe a split keyboard is generally a good choice for everyone.
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/1844/ergokbd1.jpg)
Virtually all keyboards now on the market have the cheaper-to-manufacture membrane cushioning for keys, rather than the more desirable individual spring loading for each key, which is best for good touch feedback. Basically, three types of keyboards are available: traditional, fixed split, and adjustable split.
The traditional keyboard is supplied with most home computers and is usually what you will find at your workstation. Some are available with a number pad on the right side, while others are alphanumeric or have a separate number keyboard.
The fixed split keyboard has a split at an angle of about twenty-four degrees and a slight downward taper on each end, which takes the hand slightly out of the palms-down position. The number pad, on the right side, is flat. The palm apron along the front edge of these keyboards is not ergonomically sound—don’t rely on it to support your palms. Small legs that prop up the far end of the keyboard should not be used, since they encourage extending your wrist, as when pushing a door open, a harmful posture. If you purchase this type of keyboard, make sure you have the right size of pullout tray.
There are several varieties of adjustable keyboards. These keyboards can be placed in the traditional position, angled, and even tented so the hands are no longer in the palms-down position but are held somewhere between palms up and palms down.
(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8260/ergokbd2a.jpg)
According to Dr. Alan Hedge, an ergonomics researcher at Cornell University, keying with the palms in a vertical position, as in playing an accordion, allows the forearm tendons, which move the fingers, to work more easily. Since you cannot see the keys in this position, it is difficult or impossible for a nontouch typist to use one, so vertical mirrors are installed on each side.
Many of the people who feel uncomfortable in the palms-down position at the keyboard have tight forearm pronator and supinator muscles, which need to be stretched. By placing the adjustable keyboard at a tented angle of approximately thirty degrees they might feel more comfortable during their retraining. See chapter 6 for details on exercises.
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I would advice to get a used brown or reds switch keyboard if the budget can't be that high. I noted the TKC price is high compared to others on the rest of the world, but at least they have high variety of keyboard layouts. I'm still dreaming of getting a 105 layout filco with red switches someday ... someday...
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Since you are in the UK, have you considered a Maltron?
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Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone, lots of good advice here. Thanks for all being so friendly and helpful!
I didn't know anything about Maltrons, I will have a look into those.
Problem is, split mechanicals are very expensive. I am tempted to try a standard layout one first and see how that is, since I am unsure as to how much the split is helping with my particular pain. I guess I can sell it on easily enough if it doesn't help. I've not been able to find anything with Cherry Browns significantly cheaper than a Filco in the UK, so I think I will be ordering one of those. It's stretching the budget for now, but it seems like a sensible first step at least.
redpill: When I started to research this, it really occurred to me how uncomfortable the key action on the Ergo 4000 is. That's really what is making me want to try a mech out.
DesktopJinx: You may be onto something there. My technique is not totally standard. It approximates home row touch typing, but now that you mention it my left hand is farther left than it should be (my little finger is permanently on left shift), and it does stretch to "T" a little. I should perhaps work on my technique.
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I'd go for the Blue switches, as in my Chicony from previous century (unfortunately it's not tenkeyless). Clickity-Click rulez :). (I've ordered a PLU ML-87 Mechanical Tenkeyless Cherry MX Blue to be able to have the mouse closer to the body.)
But, i had problems with my wrist too, a few years ago. Since i got a lower desk at my work (so the mouse and keyboard are lower too), i hardly have any wrist problem anymore. I think MANY desks are too high for the mouse and keyboard. Except for exchanging the MS rubber dome keyboard for a clicky keyboard, i think the mouse might be often a big(ger) problem (too). I had this expensive http://www.patentparade.nl/alle-uitvindingen/nl1029350-computermuis-het-paard.html mouse, but that didn't help: no doubleclick possible with the wheelbutton. Oh yeah, i think setting the wheel button of your mouse to double click will help combatting RSI too, if you use Windows and need to double click a lot.
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Maltron in the UK rents keyboards as well. You can rent one and see if you like it.
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And consider to change the keyboard layout. Qwerty is not optimal, and Colemak or Dvorak layout makes your finger move less, which certainly helps to ease your RSI pain.
Here the Colemak layout
(http://www.upl.co/uploads//Colemak2.jpg)
As you see, this keyboard layout put all the most used English keys (etrsioandh) into the home row, which makes typing a lot easier. It keeps 10 qwzxcvbmha keys intact, so your shortcut copy-paste-cut-select all are still working. You only have to learn the remaining 17 keys.
For more information, visit Colemak website (http://colemak.com) and my convert experience to Colemak (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970).
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Have you seen a doctor yet?
Type less. Take a look at phrase express or texter.
I've found that change works. I don't believe that holding any one position all day is good. I'm lucky that I can sit or stand at my desk.
As mentioned earlier the Maltron is worth an audition. It'll cost around £40 to hire for a month. If you like it but can't afford it the kinesis advantage is similar. Mechanical keyboards have a long life -price per day is real small.
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The Keyboard Company still has Filco with red switches on the 104 US layout and tenkeyless US layout, which is one key less and such, but if you make a little efford, you would get used to it. And yeah, like someone else mentioned here, you might be doing yourself a big favor by changing your layout to dvorak or colemak (my personal advice is try dvorak, since it's better, but colemak is easier to learn)
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I'd really recommend "some" type of ergo mechanical, i cannot go back to standard 104 (or regular layout, be it 10keyless or whatever) I can barely type on a laptop keyboard for long periods of time.
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I had pain when typing for long periods; changing typing habits (hovering instead of putting wrists on rest) helped some, moving to MX browns stopped all of my typing pain. Your mileage may vary.
Ergo mechanicals are pretty expensive and mech boards retain their value well. I'd try a standard layout MX Brown mechanical and move on if that doesn't help enough.
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I'd go for the Blue switches, as in my Chicony from previous century (unfortunately it's not tenkeyless). Clickity-Click rulez :). (I've ordered a PLU ML-87 Mechanical Tenkeyless Cherry MX Blue to be able to have the mouse closer to the keyboard.)
But, i had problems with my wrist too, a few years ago. Since i got a lower desk at my work (so the mouse and keyboard are lower too), i hardly have any wrist problem anymore. I think MANY desks are too high for the mouse and keyboard. Except for exchanging the MS rubber dome keyboard for a clicky keyboard, i think the mouse might be often a big(ger) problem (too). I had this expensive http://www.patentparade.nl/alle-uitvindingen/nl1029350-computermuis-het-paard.html mouse, but that didn't help: no doubleclick possible with the wheelbutton. Oh yeah, i think setting the wheel button of your mouse to double click will help combatting RSI too, if you use Windows and need to double click a lot.
I think you are right about the desk height being a problem. Personally I am planning on getting a foot rest so I can raise my chair higher.
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Two other things suggested in this thread:
1. Low force linear switches
2. Ergo mechanical
Which points to one and only keyboard :-)
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18200-Kinesis-Advantage-LF-(Linear-Feel-Cherry-MX-Red-switches)-shipped&p=349155&viewfull=1#post349155
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Two other things suggested in this thread:
1. Low force linear switches
2. Ergo mechanical
Which points to one and only keyboard :-)
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18200-Kinesis-Advantage-LF-(Linear-Feel-Cherry-MX-Red-switches)-shipped&p=349155&viewfull=1#post349155
kinesis anything is pretty expensive, never even got an "estimate" of how much could be spent? (didn't see it) but yea mechanical ergo mech, kinesis is the only keyboard to recommend. (why maltron? idk guess it's a euro thing)
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Well, the budget is not strictly defined, but if I am going much over £100 it certainly needs to be well justified. The Filco is really about as high as I can go to be honest. That pretty much rules out ergonomic mechanicals for the time being as far as I can see.
edit: Also, is there a reason people are suggesting low force linear switches over low force tactile? I was under the impression tactiles were generally felt to be "nicer" to type on.
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One bad part of the feel of Microsoft "Natural" keyboards is that there can be a lot of friction on off-centre key presses, such as when keys have been pressed at an angle or at the very edge. I suspect that that could have been a factor that has given you problems.
Another factor that you should look at is what kind of mouse you have. Myself, I have had pain from clicking hard mouse buttons with the index finger on my right hand. With a change of mouse, my pain was relieved.
There have been other rubber dome keyboards by other makers than Microsoft that have had the same layout as the "Natural" series, but with better key feel. These could probably be had for a more reasonable amount of money than many others. I would have my eyes open for one of those and try it out before I buy.
If you are lucky, you could find a really really cheap one at a flea market or in a thrift store. All keyboards degrade with use in one way or another: rubber domes tend to become softer.
Don't be afraid of a little grime. All keyboards (except for Apple's flat ones) can be taken apart and cleaned. Just be careful of the membrane in the middle.
Then there are a few boards that have adjustable pivot or is in two pieces.
I like the Goldtouch, but it does not have lower force than Microsoft's.
I have only heard bad things about the Kinesis Maxim (Rebranded Fujitsu-Siemens keyboard).
The Kinesis Freestyle has had quite good reviews, and has low force, but it is quite expensive for being a rubber dome keyboard.
Also, is there a reason people are suggesting low force linear switches over low force tactile? I was under the impression tactiles were generally felt to be "nicer" to type on.
If you are looking for low force, the linear ones are the ones with the lowest force. The tactile switches are all a little bit heavier.
Also... in "buying advice" threads such as this one, there are always a bunch of posters who tout their own preferences, regardless whether it is what the thread starter asked for or not. ;-)
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Right, well it seems the general consensus is... there is no general consensus! It seems that just trying some boards out is all I can do, while working on my typing technique as well. So I have ordered a Filco Cherry Brown, and I'll see how I go with it. As people have said, I won't be losing out on much if I find it isn't for me and I resell it. I'll update with my experiences when I've received it!
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(http://666kb.com/i/btsc3zq4857bbrbff.jpg)
That is a wise decision. We human are degrading so much through office work daily.
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Right, well it seems the general consensus is... there is no general consensus! It seems that just trying some boards out is all I can do, while working on my typing technique as well. So I have ordered a Filco Cherry Brown, and I'll see how I go with it. As people have said, I won't be losing out on much if I find it isn't for me and I resell it. I'll update with my experiences when I've received it!
right now your just finding a "switch" which is really different than finding a keyboard you can work with, especially if you're used to split ergo and you have rsi issues, just keep that in mind.
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Lots of good advice given here already.
Let me stress the importance of sitting height vs. keyboard height again. When I found an increase in chair height gave me blood circulation problems, I got a wedge-shaped cushion for my chair as this does not have a corresponding tilt adjustment. The result has been working out quite well.
I also found a front "lip" on keyboards quite useful for resting my thumbs (many older constructions have this, including Cherry G80s). If that is not present, a wrist rest should also do the job.
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Yes, high wrist wrests are good... as well as a negative tilt. Notice how my ergo keyboard has the keys much lower than the palm rest area to take care of this issue. I've also put the near edge of the keyboard on my tray's palm rest to increase the negative tilt and avoid bent wrists. I also keep the tray as low as possible.
This is the Kinesis Advantage LF with soft linear (cherry MX red) switches. Another feature is the slight "tenting", the 2 halves of the keyboard are rotated outward, to reduce pronation of the hand. I have RSI issues and this keyboard is the best thing ever. Note I exchanged some of the keycaps with those of an older white Kinesis for fun :-)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18596[/ATTACH]
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I have RSI due to an underlying medical condition. My hands became too stiff to comfortably type on my standard work keyboard and I switched to a Goldtouch - this actually made it worse as it's still rubber-dome with a poor action and I had to stretch more to use the keys. With pain at the base of the fingers it seems that the up-down motion of keypresses is wearing out your metacarpophalangeal joints - you really want to save them if you can, I've now had six reconstructed and it's no fun at all! As far as I'm concerned all mechanical keyswitches suffer from constantly requiring exactly the same motion, hence the repetitive strain.
I ended up convincing work to get me a Datahand and it was a revelation - seems like a very drastic and costly solution but trust me, your hands will thank you! I found the variation of finger movements helped with the fatigue and my hand pain was dramatically reduced. My typing speed also went up and now I can type without looking at the keys I can freak out my colleagues by finishing my sentence while holding down a conversation :happy: Don't be afraid to go with something different!
Stone
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Just to add to the non-consensus, I have CTS and buckling springs work for me, even though they're not one of the lighter switches. On the other hand, brown Cherry switches cause me pain nearly instantly. As others mentioned, mouse buttons are a big issue for me as well, many of them are too stiff. Some of the old Microsoft mice, like the original Explorer (which I believe is still made) have the softest buttons. As a general rule, all the new mice that don't actually have separate buttons but have them as just part of the plastic top I find to be the worst. I also find a large trackball like the Kensington to be helpful.
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Strange, why would lighter switches cause you pain? Have you tried linear switches, like cherry MX blacks or reds ?
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Folks, be careful about the wrist rest recommendations. Saying you have RSI is like saying you have back pain. It's a lot of different conditions all lumped together into one term and different things will aggravate the pain for different people. A wrist rest is a complete no-no for some forms of RSI.
I have pretty serious wrist tendinitis from time to time and wrist rests are a non-starter for me. Just the act of resting your wrist on something causes tension in your tendons. I don't even have to type. I just set my hand on the wrist rest while I'm reading and the pain will start.
Ideally, you want to be able to get by without devices that correct your form like a wrist rest because it's a crutch that when overused, will become part of your problem. Having said that, I'm not going to tell anyone to toss out their wrist rests because even though it's technically bad for you in the long run, it might be preventing you from other habits that are far worse for your hands, neck, or back than having a wrist rest that keeps your hands in a good neutral typing position.
All the ergonomic guidelines in the world can't compensate for the fact that a lot of people have to spend way too much time at a keyboard every day. If you're logging a regular 12+ at your computer all the time and you have the endurance to keep perfect posture and typing mechanics, you belong in Cirque du Soleil.
Anyway, back to the original topic about switches... I can only type on Cherry Browns or Topres for any extended period of time without pain. The most I can last on any other type of switch is a few days of heavy use before my bad wrist starts to ache. Usually I don't make it much farther than a few hours.
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Strange, why would lighter switches cause you pain?
Typing speed and typing mechanics can be a major contributing factors to CTS. It could be that you type faster on light switches or you have a heavy touch that causes you to bottom out constantly very hard on light switches. Given that stiff mouse buttons is causing Qwertyuiop pain, my guess would be with the bottoming out hard hypothesis. Also, the way you're unconsciously striking the keys could be different depending on the heaviness of the switch too. Slight changes in hand angles and the difference in a few mm of key travel can add up to a lot of extra wear and tear.
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I agree with hyperlinked. You'll have to try different things to see what works for you. Whatever you do, frequent breaks from the computer is always helpful. I downloaded Scirocco's Take a Break (http://download.cnet.com/Scirocco-Take-a-Break/3000-2350_4-10333152.html) software, and set it up to remind me to take a break every 45 minutes. During the breaks I walk around in the office, stretch my body, and do some shadowboxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowboxing) to get the blood flowing. On days I don't override the reminders and actually take the breaks, I work more efficiently and is less fatigued at the end of the day.
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Strange, why would lighter switches cause you pain? Have you tried linear switches, like cherry MX blacks or reds ?
I don't think that's it, necessarily. For instance, if there was a lighter buckling spring that might be ok. I think it's something else about the browns. As someone else mentioned, bottoming is likely part of it, as I can easily type on BS without bottoming.
I have tried Cherry blacks, that's the worst of all of anything I've tried. They feel too stiff, and the progressive resistance makes them uncomfortable. I found them like typing on cheap rubber domes but worse. I had always suspected the sort of "reverse linear" aspect of buckling springs was part of why they work for me and after trying the blacks I'm more convinced of that. I know reverse linear isn't an accurate description, but what I mean is that the force after the spring buckles is lower and I think it's why I don't bottom them hard.
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I would be interested to learn what your experience will be typing on reds (light linears)
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I don't think that's it, necessarily. For instance, if there was a lighter buckling spring that might be ok.
You might want to try a RealForce Topre board. It sounds like activation force is indeed an issue for you even though buckling springs are (curiously enough) your most comfortable option. I find them to be the best of both worlds. It's the light touch of Cherry Browns, but with just enough of the snap you get with buckling springs. If you're used to buckling springs, you probably won't feel the snap at first, but after a while it's really noticeable. When I got really used to Cherry Browns, I could definitely feel the tactile bump in those too, but if I were to try it right now, I wouldn't be able to feel any bump.
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sordna: If I had access to reds without buying a keyboard I'd try that. Unfortunately I don't, and I believe I need a tactile bump, so I don't think they'll work for me, though I expect they'd be better than the blacks.
hyperlinked: I've been curious about Topre. Probably just a mental thing with me, but I wanted one with all keys the same trigger force. EK is unfortunately out of the all-55g version, but I was looking at Topre's website, and, at least for Japanese layout keyboards, they now have a number of all *30g* keyboards. I'm really curious about those though I also wonder it that may take some getting used to as being perhaps almost too light? The Japanese layout isn't a problem for me as I actually need one keyboard like that.
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hyperlinked: I've been curious about Topre. Probably just a mental thing with me, but I wanted one with all keys the same trigger force. EK is unfortunately out of the all-55g version, but I was looking at Topre's website, and, at least for Japanese layout keyboards, they now have a number of all *30g* keyboards. I'm really curious about those though I also wonder it that may take some getting used to as being perhaps almost too light? The Japanese layout isn't a problem for me as I actually need one keyboard like that.
I really think the variable weighting thing with the RealForce boards is someone trying to be just a little too clever. Pinky fatigue or pain isn't something you hear about too often from typists.
The variable weighting isn't a problem when you're typing, but if you stop and you're staring at the screen, it's really easy to accidentally lean too hard on the 35g keys. There are only a few of them so it's only a minor nit, but a nit nonetheless.
Where did you see the all 30g Topres? I've been away for a while so I'm out of the loop as to what's new in the past year. I'd be interested in trying those out though I too am wondering if they'd be just too light. I've learned to touch type on my iPad's touch screen so I guess nothing could be lighter than that. I've actually found that I'm very comfortable touch typing on a touch screen so for me the discomfort probably isn't so much from the actual motions, but the actual work done when my fingers hit the keys. Of course, I type half my normal speed on a touch screen so maybe that's it.
I think it'd be really hard to go from buckling springs to a 30g Topre though. It's less of a jump from where I'm already at.
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I haven't read all of the responses in this thread, but a number of them.
To the OP: because you state 1/ it's not diagnosed 2/ it's not in your wrist I would not feel that you "must" get some kind of specifically designed ergonomic device. It seems that 90% of the ergo stuff out there assumes that everyone has carpal tunnel issues in their wrists and that's all they design for. I had index finger joint pain coming and going in my mousing hand a couple of years ago (sounds exactly like what you're describing) and wanted to switch to a pointer device that eliminated the index finger from left clicking. Pretty much the ONLY thing I could find was the Kensington ExpertMouse. Nearly every other trackball still had the three main buttons on the same fingers and "ergo" mice were all about keeping the wrist relaxed and vertical while continuing to destroy my knuckle joint. This same narrow view of ergonomic design seems to permeate keyboards as well.
I've used MS Natural keyboards for 13 years and the 4000 is the worst piece of junk MS has ever slapped the "Natural" label on. This is on top of the fact that, as someone else points out, Naturals seem to be known for key binding if pressed off center (even before they were junk). I wasn't using Naturals to ease carpal tunnel, I just kind of liked them. I stopped using my last Natural about 6 months ago, went mechanical, and haven't looked back.
The absolute best keyboard I have ever used for frictionless action even at extreme angles is Topre. If herky-jerky sticky key action and bottoming out are aggravating your condition then a Realforce may be an excellent option. I had a 55g (only sold last week) and I found it a little heavy to get really comfortable and fast (personal preference). Given that you're trying to solve a problem I would definitely shop for variable "ergo" weighting to keep the key effort down. A downside for Realforce (other than cost) is narrower key caps leading to a feeling of increased key spacing while typing. Filco/Leopold/Ducky seem to all use key profiles that are larger on top which may contribute to the key-to-key glide that I observe with my Filco.
Beyond that, Cherry browns do have a nice slick flow from key to key as you type and I consider them pretty light. Red would be the lightest of all but lack any tactile feedback at all. Reds also seem to be commanding a price premium as a hot new offering - you may have trouble finding them. Switching to anything mechanical which does not bind and does not need to be bottomed out to register should change your muscle memory over the course of a couple of weeks. You will probably start to type differently and hopefully relieve some of your pain.
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I found the 30g Topres on their Japanese website and at Amazon Japan; they're only 108-key Japanese layout. Checking now the wiki here lists them as well. Pages are in Japanese but:
http://www.topre.co.jp/products/comp/index.html
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%9D%B1%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC-Realforce108UDK-%E9%9D%99%E9%9B%BB%E5%AE%B9%E9%87%8F%E7%84%A1%E6%8E%A5%E7%82%B9USB%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89-%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E108%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%81%8B%E3%81%AA%E3%81%AA%E3%81%97-SJ38C0/dp/B003H04YIO/
There's also a all-45g "gaming" keyboard they make for G-Tune:
http://www.g-tune.jp/products/solution/1010_masterpiece_keyboard/
I'd like the US-layout all 55g one, but it doesn't seem to still be available. Searching by its part number I can't find it anywhere. Should've ordered on when EK had them but I put it off due to price and not knowing if I'd like it and not really being able to afford it at the time.
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There's also a all-45g "gaming" keyboard they make for G-Tune:
http://www.g-tune.jp/products/solution/1010_masterpiece_keyboard/
I can't read any of the text, but I like the look of that G-Tune. Tenkeyless in an ANSI layout, that would be awesome!
EDIT: I'm upgrading this to "DO WANT" status (if I found ANSI layout). All 45g, black-on-black with keys you can read, oh boy!
(http://www.g-tune.jp/images/products/solution/1010_masterpiece_keyboard/photo_01.jpg)
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Hi again everyone. I received my Filco, and I absolutely love it. Having used it at home for a while now, I am sure it is lessening the pain in my fingers.
To the OP: because you state 1/ it's not diagnosed 2/ it's not in your wrist I would not feel that you "must" get some kind of specifically designed ergonomic device. It seems that 90% of the ergo stuff out there assumes that everyone has carpal tunnel issues in their wrists and that's all they design for.
I am quoting this, because it is definitely my experience. The ergonomic devices I have tried don't really help with finger pain. My setup at home is now the Filco and a Razer Diamondback (which has buttons which require very little force). I am able to play sessions of Starcraft 2 now with no noticeable pain at all, and typing on the Filco is a joy. It seems to be that the light actions on these devices are what do the trick, and nothing to do with the Ergonomics at all.
Unfortunately my work environment is a different story. I have taken my old Ergonomic 4000 for use there temporarily, along with an Evoluent vertical mouse I am borrowing. The mouse is OK, not sure it is helping a lot, but the buttons on it are reasonably light. It doesn't seem to be inflaming my right hand at all. The Ergo 4000 on the other hand is proving a nightmare for the amount of typing I do at work. My left index finger is developing considerable pain. I am thinking therefore, that a mechanical keyboard at work is going to have to be the next step. The issue is going to be convincing my employer to spend circa £100 on a keyboard for me, especially after he mocked me for my purchase of the Filco! I could perhaps bring the Filco with me temporarily, but I don't really want to have to carry it around.
I have also been to see my GP about the pain. She was not a lot of help. She suggested trying splints and took a blood test for arthritis (which came back normal, unsurprisingly), but was not able to offer much beyond that. I am considering returning and asking for a referral for physiotherapy, at least to get some exercises to try.
I increasingly suspect that the pain is a form of tendonitis, so I am trying some of the advice from this site too http://www.tendonitisexpert.com/Trigger-Finger.html
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The ergonomic devices I have tried don't really help with finger pain. My setup at home is now the Filco and a Razer Diamondback (which has buttons which require very little force). I am able to play sessions of Starcraft 2 now with no noticeable pain at all, and typing on the Filco is a joy. It seems to be that the light actions on these devices are what do the trick, and nothing to do with the Ergonomics at all.
If you're playing Starcraft, I'm going to assume you spend a lot of your time with your left hand on the keyboard and your right hand on the mouse, correct? You use your left hand for a lot of shortcuts and macros with your left hand? If so, the the ergo layout might have indeed been part of the problem because your typing posture may not necessarily be the same as your gaming/surfing posture.
Your mileage may vary, but I found for myself that the carrying angle of my elbows felt pretty comfortable while typing on an ergo keyboard, but I kept developing more pain. What I realized was that I changed my posture while working in Photoshop and other things that required heavy shortcutting with the left hand. This meant that I was now actually reaching FARTHER to hit keys on the ergo layout. I fixed it temporarily by moving the angle of the ergo keyboard so that the left side was no longer angled (like a normal keyboard), but that brought the problem that the right side was now extremely angled and inconvenient to use for a few quick keystrokes.
You might be surprised to learn that the switches in the Diamondbacks aren't actually any lower in activation force than a lot of other mice that you may have used. I made the same mistake. The switches in the Diamondbacks are the same as in a lot of other mice, but the Diamondback is a very different shape than most other mice. In this case it's actually the ergonomics and not the activation force.
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You might be surprised to learn that the switches in the Diamondbacks aren't actually any lower in activation force than a lot of other mice that you may have used. I made the same mistake. The switches in the Diamondbacks are the same as in a lot of other mice, but the Diamondback is a very different shape than most other mice. In this case it's actually the ergonomics and not the activation force.
That is surprising, they certainly feel easier to press than many. Is it possible the length of the buttons gives a good lever (they are longer than on many mice), perhaps reducing the activation force? Regardless, I find it very comfortable to use, even if it is only due to the ergonomics. Certainly it compares favourably with my old intellimouse, but then that has buttons which are build into the body and bend, so that would add activation force I am sure.
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Unfortunately my work environment is a different story. I have taken my old Ergonomic 4000 for use there temporarily, along with an Evoluent vertical mouse I am borrowing. The mouse is OK, not sure it is helping a lot, but the buttons on it are reasonably light. It doesn't seem to be inflaming my right hand at all. The Ergo 4000 on the other hand is proving a nightmare for the amount of typing I do at work. My left index finger is developing considerable pain. I am thinking therefore, that a mechanical keyboard at work is going to have to be the next step. The issue is going to be convincing my employer to spend circa £100 on a keyboard for me, especially after he mocked me for my purchase of the Filco! I could perhaps bring the Filco with me temporarily, but I don't really want to have to carry it around.
Yeah, the 4000 isn't going to help you one little bit, that's for sure. You could try a couple of things:
1/ try a Kensington ExpertMouse. This will move left clicking to your thumb instead of your index finger. This is the only thing that would allow my condition to clear up. I didn't end up needing to switch to it permanently, but long enough to things to calm down and heal on their own. It's been a couple of years now and I'm using regular mice and keyboards as heavy as Model M without an issue again.
2/ If you want a better keyboard on the cheap, look for a Keytronic E03600-series keyboard with "ergo" weighting. This has key weighting distribution kind of like a variable weighted Realforce. It has a soft-ish landing, good tactile pop, variable weighting and it's cheap. There's a zillion versions of Keytronic boards with ergo weighting, the 3600 has the regular enter key and double-backspace. The 3601 has L-shaped enter and narrow backspace. There's black options, USB options, etc...etc... It's not specifically "light", but the keys for lesser fingers are lighter and it'll jam a lot less than the 4000 (in my personal observation).
Glad to hear that you're making some progress. Mine was just a little bothersome until I whacked that knuckle good while wrenching on the car. That seemed to be the little push it needed to become a serious problem and I had to start changing devices. Even right now I can feel just a little hint of the issue in my right index knuckle.
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I am quoting this, because it is definitely my experience. The ergonomic devices I have tried don't really help with finger pain. My setup at home is now the Filco and a Razer Diamondback (which has buttons which require very little force). I am able to play sessions of Starcraft 2 now with no noticeable pain at all
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I have also been to see my GP about the pain. She was not a lot of help. She suggested trying splints and took a blood test for arthritis (which came back normal, unsurprisingly), but was not able to offer much beyond that. I am considering returning and asking for a referral for physiotherapy, at least to get some exercises to try.
I increasingly suspect that the pain is a form of tendonitis, so I am trying some of the advice from this site too http://www.tendonitisexpert.com/Trigger-Finger.html
Dude, if you are having such problems, best thing you can do is give up video gaming. Seriously. Save your fingers for work purposes, and pick up some sport or something for fun/hobby purposes! It's not worth risking any bit of your health for video games. Take the Filco to work, and leave it there!
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I was having some wrist pain, so I switched keyboards a few times. Didn't help. Switched mice/trackballs/pointer hands a few times. Didn't help. Got a steelcase leap, and configured it correctly -- No more main.
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Dude, if you are having such problems, best thing you can do is give up video gaming. Seriously. Save your fingers for work purposes, and pick up some sport or something for fun/hobby purposes!
I completely second this... or find some other way to play games. I found that I'm able to play some FPS style games again now that I have an iPad. It just doesn't stress my hands out the way the keyboard does. The FPS style games on the iPad are still pretty primitive in comparison, but they're not bad and are getting better.
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+1 on the giving up games. First thing I did when I started having problems. Don't bother asking work for a flash keyboard, just get another board (compaq mx11800 has cherry browns and can be had on the cheap from ebay) - I have 7 or 8 of mine there (I like change and it helps on the storage situ. at home).
You could remap the left click. I've got a script somewhere that uses the capslock for it. I've been using workrave for a few years now and I keep a spreadsheet of typing stats. Average mouse clicks per day is around 3000. Or you could use the other hand...
You can really cut down on typing by thinking first. If you find yourself undoing and redoing all the time then you really need to knock it on the head.
I don't know what line of work you're in, but I've set up a ton of macros and wizards to effectively multiply my keypresses. No-one really cares how you do your work - you don't have to type all of it. Just remember that you're supposed to 'add value' to your company, not tap keys (unless of course, you are there to tap keys).
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I take the point about giving up games, and if that's what it comes to then of course health comes first. However, I want to emphasise that I am experiencing no pain whatsoever when using the Filco. Last night when I came in from work I gave computer use a break for a few hours, and my hands were feeling fine. Then I played a couple of hours of Starcraft before bed, which is extremely taxing on the left hand (with a lot of key presses and stretching) and I felt no discomfort at all. This is compared to even 30 mins of normal use on the Ergo 4000 becoming very uncomfortable indeed. In other words, if my current lifestyle is sustainable with better equipment, that is of course what I would prefer. I am begininng to suspect that the problem has been caused by years of using MS keyboards with horrible key action (before the Ergo 4000 I used an MS internet keyboard, which from memory had a very similar feel to the keys).
Those asking what I do for a living, I am a researcher and computer programmer, so keyboard use will always be a huge part of my life. If I can get this right now, hopefully I will be set up to use computers pain free for the forseeable future. If it doesn't work out then I will certainly make the appropriate changes to my lifestyle.
hoggy, a cheap cherry brown board like the mx11800 sounds like a great idea. I can only see one on ebay though, and shipping to the UK is expensive. If I can find something like that for a reasonable price I would give it a go, otherwise I might just get another Filco, whether my employer is prepared to pay for it or not.
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if the filco works, then why aren't you carrying it to work everyday? honestly lugging around a keyboard to work to SAVE your joints and hands pales in comparison to the horror stories of ppl who end up with full blown RSI pain.
Or just say, screw it and buy the cheapest brown keyboard you can get and leave it there. Or buy another filco, have a group meeting with everyone in your office, take out your keyboard and pee on it. Then say, "ok who wants to steal this keyboard now?"
honestly a few hundred dollars to avert getting full blown RSI is nothing compared to the years of pain.
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I've been using a Maltron since 1986, and as a court reporter (since 1990) I'm having to type at the speed of speech (150+wpm) for hours on end. I've got absolutely no problems at all with my hands. (However latterly I've moved more into speech recognition.)
You may wish to read some of the academic papers that Stephen Hobday and Lilian Malt have produced since 1977.
http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers.html
You may gain some insight into computer related injuries.
If you DO decide to go down the Maltron road, you should make a firm decision to use the Malt layout, and not keep going with the QWERTY. It may take longer initially to reach a high level, but in the long run it will pay for itself many times over in increased productivity and reduced downtime from injury.
Joe
PS As for mousing, I found this to be pretty good.
http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/mice-pointers/trackballs/devices/4786
It can be reassigned to either hand quickly, and doesn't involve any picking up or moving.
(http://www.logitech.com/assets/21737/21737.png)
J