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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Reason on Sat, 28 May 2011, 00:23:36
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Hi everyone
After few weeks of lurking around the forum, I decided to finally join the community! :D
I've had a filco majestouch 2 blue switch for a while but I don't have it anymore because
I sold it due to some financial problems
but I just couldn't go back to the rubber dome and I'm trying to buy another mechanical keyboard
However, since I don't have that much money atm and because I want to try different
keyboards, I decided to purchase a IBM Model M on ebay
I have few questions before I make the purchase though
1) I know that IBM Model Ms uses buckling spring switch... how does it compare to the Cherry MX Blue switch?? I type a lot of stuff everyday because I write novels and I play starcraft 2 mainly
2) Is buckling switch comfortable when playing rts games like starcraft 2? is it suitable for mass spamming and repeated clicking? can it register the commands fast enough and does it pop back up fast lol?
3) I'm looking to buy this one Ebay - http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-CLICKY-VINTAGE-KEYBOARD-Model-M-1391401-AUG-93-PS-2-/260777901472?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3cb792fda0#ht_6039wt_1139 (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-CLICKY-VINTAGE-KEYBOARD-Model-M-1391401-AUG-93-PS-2-/260777901472?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3cb792fda0#ht_6039wt_1139)
Do you think this is a good Model M to buy? or can you recommend me any other better ones?
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wlcm 2 gh
its all preference imo. however, for gaming, BS seems a little much. who knows though? you might like it
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Model M is tougher, heavier and harder to type than MX blue. I don't recommend it for gaming.
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hrm what about the link I posted
There are tons of sellers selling used model ms on ebay
and the prices vary so much
do you think this one is genuine? and is the pricing correct on that one?
Does seller refurbished mean that the model m might be tampered?
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BS are a lot heavier feeling than mx blues. It's not stiff or anything, in fact it's a rather pleasant feeling imo. But it is definately different. Typing on blues feels like typing on air in comparison. BS have a spongy feeling to em. Again, not necessarily a bad feeling. I will say I do feel I type faster on blues, but it's not a huge difference.
For gaming, specifically SC gaming, I do think blues are better. The heavier feeling of BS sorta gets in the way in a game where you're often spamming single keys. Keep in mind though, it's not like it's impossible or even unpleasant to play on a BS. It's just that a mx blue will be better.
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oh i see hmmmm
Can you guys recommend a good cherry blue keyboard that is reasonably priced??
I'm currently thinking of Das ultimate because I can get the 20% student discount
but I've heard some bad things about Das being shiny and wearing out quick....
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Define "reasonably priced". If they had them in stock, I'd say go with the Leopold Blue from EliteKeyboards.
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$50 ~ $110 with shipping included is reasonable for me
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The blue Leos at EK then are just at the top end of that range, if not just a tad over. Probably your best bet if you're in the US is the Razer Blackwidow (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823114011&cm_re=Razer_Blackwidow-_-23-114-011-_-Product). Well regarded as a solid board for the price, and it's got Cherry Blues.
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The keyboard price and seller are good; it's just the shipping which isn't so cool. I'm guessing you're in Europe/UK?
Buckling springs are really very different from Cherry blues. They require more force to actuate and in me experience, some boards have a really annoying "ping" sound when you release the key. Furthermore, while both boards are clicky, the model m is much louder. I would see if you could find a model m a little cheaper just in case you don't like them. I tried for a month to get used to one and I just couldn't do it.
If you are short on money right now the Dell AT102W is a great alternative. It uses black ALPS which are tactile and clicky; closer to cherry blue and they are generally cheap in every country.
>>>Alternative<<< (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Dell-AT102W-Clicky-PS2-Keyboard-NICE-/120727337303?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item1c1be8f957)
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I play RTS games including Starcraft on buckling spring keyboards all the time with no issues. For RTS games, it's nice to have that affirmative action.
The buckling springs are more tactile than the Blue Cherries, and lack many of the Blue Cherry's problems, like the pronounced hysteresis gap (i.e. the double-tap issue) and general fragility. On the whole, I think they're a definite step up.
The seller you linked is someone I've bought stuff from before, I recommend him.
Buckling springs are really very different from Cherry blues. They require more force to actuate and in me experience, some boards have a really annoying "ping" sound when you release the key. Furthermore, while both boards are clicky, the model m is much louder. I would see if you could find a model m a little cheaper just in case you don't like them. I tried for a month to get used to one and I just couldn't do it.
The ping is a sign of popped rivets, which can be rectified. They are somewhat louder than Blue Cherries, but the sound is less distracting IMHO.
If you are short on money right now the Dell AT102W is a great alternative. It uses black ALPS which are tactile and clicky; closer to cherry blue and they are generally cheap in every country.
Black Alps switches are not clicky - they just make a lot of noise because they bottom out so hard. They're also quite tiring to type on in my experience. They also don't age well, so getting an decent old one is down to pot luck.
For gaming, specifically SC gaming, I do think blues are better. The heavier feeling of BS sorta gets in the way in a game where you're often spamming single keys. Keep in mind though, it's not like it's impossible or even unpleasant to play on a BS. It's just that a mx blue will be better.
Unless you have some magic version of the Blue Cherry that doesn't have the double-tap problem... No...
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Just to put my opinion in, I just recently bought the Razer Blackwidow (yesterday infact) and I love it. If there's one problem with it, it's that the backspace key feels slightly heavier than the other keys, and has a different feel to it. Other than that, for my first mech keyboard, it's golden.
Been playing SC2 on it, and it feels wonderful.
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You don't double tap close to the activation point in SC so that's not an issue. Personally I'd rather have the lighter keystroke, as do most progamers. Many play on mx blues, I haven't seen or heard of one on a model m.
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Many play on mx blues, I haven't seen or heard of one on a model m.
There's thousand times more people who play SC on rubber dome keyboards than on Blue Cherry boards. Does this prove anything?
There are quite a few people here (myself included) who play on buckling springs.
Personally I'd rather have the lighter keystroke, as do most progamers.
I see what you did there, dawg. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)
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There's thousand times more people who play SC on rubber dome keyboards than on Blue Cherry boards. Does this prove anything?
Prove is a strong word, suggest that RD are (obviously) well suited for gaming, surely better suited than MX blue and BS.
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For the record, every programmer I know personally with a mechanical keyboard, save one, prefers Model M keyboards if there are no noise restrictions, and HHKBs if there are noise restrictions. The one exception uses an older korean leopold with browns (he brought it with him when he came to grad school).
This includes a couple hundred people, all told, in both academia and industry. There are too many unix beards kicking around that love that BS tactile action, and especially the layout modifications possible with the M.
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Prove is a strong word, suggest that RD are (obviously) well suited for gaming, surely better suited than MX blue and BS.
My question was rhetorical, it only proves (or suggests, if you will) that nearly everyone has a rubber dome keyboard.
There's far too many variables that determine what keyboard people chose to use (or don't chose, and just use what comes with the computer) to make such judgements based purely on how many people use them.
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For someone linking to wiki pages to define an argument, you seem to be playing fast and loose with the rules. You can't sit there and tell me there isn't a difference between my argument that most Starcraft progamers (which is an actual term by the way) prefer mx blues and your rhetorical one about the general population using rubber domes. If the majority of the top players in a given field go are choosing one option, then it indicates the people with the most experience who are experts in that area (this case being RTS gaming) favor it. If the majority of the general public out there choose another option (rubber domes), it's more likely that's the option that's easiest/cheapest/most available/good enough for them.
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For someone linking to wiki pages to define an argument, you seem to be playing fast and loose with the rules. You can't sit there and tell me there isn't a difference between my argument that most Starcraft progamers (which is an actual term by the way) prefer mx blues and your rhetorical one about the general population using rubber domes.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the same point is applicable in both cases. You can't draw conclusions about how suitable something is based purely on how many people use it without any sort of analysis of why it is popular.
If the majority of the top players in a given field go are choosing one option, then it indicates the people with the most experience who are experts in that area (this case being RTS gaming) favor it. If the majority of the general public out there choose another option (rubber domes), it's more likely that's the option that's easiest/cheapest/most available/good enough for them.
Right, but it doesn't mean that it is the best, or even that it is the most suited. Many people drive Nissans, far fewer people drive Mercedes. Are Nissans better than Mercedes? Cheaper, sure. Easier to find, sure. But if these aren't issues, does it not make more sense to compare them on how good they are?
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Definitely recommend the razer black widow if you're on a budget. next would be a leopold with blues if you really want to jump to another price point.
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Definitely recommend the razer black widow if you're on a budget. next would be a leopold with blues if you really want to jump to another price point.
wlcm 2 gh
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My argument is mainly based on level of expertise, not solely on the amount of people using it. It's the fact that they are progamers I'm focusing on. The high number of them within that sub group using that is a secondary point, not the main one, to bolster the first one. If we were to apply it to your car analogy, more people do drive Nissans but I would argue it just like my rubber dome example that that choice is more informed by price, availability and it being good enough for their needs (in relation to the price). But if let's say a very high number of top racers & car aficionados drove Mercedes, that proves that people who are experts in that field are picking this car for a reason.
I'm not saying my progamer example conclusively "proves" MX blues are objectively better than BS for RTS gaming but I never said it did. Of course it's gonna be subjective when we're dealing with interface concerns. I just put forth my opinion and cited the fact that many high level gamers share the same opinion.
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Are Nissans better than Mercedes?
Excluding my beloved SMART, a Mercedes is a an expensive, hard to park car. It swallows a lot of fuel (for the European standards), is more appreciated by thieves and is expensive to maintain and repair.
So, yes. From a lot of POVs a Nissan is a better car. Exactly as happens on the keyboard and on everything else there's not definite answers to such kind of questions.
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Welcome to GeekHack
There are some cheap keyboards that uses blue switches, I would advice to give them a try :)
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Excluding my beloved SMART, a Mercedes is a an expensive, hard to park car. It swallows a lot of fuel (for the European standards), is more appreciated by thieves and is expensive to maintain and repair.
So, yes. From a lot of POVs a Nissan is a better car. Exactly as happens on the keyboard and on everything else there's not definite answers to such kind of questions.
I'm not sure how relevant that is to the point I was making with the analogy. If anything, it probably backs up what I was saying, so hey, thanks...
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As I've said before, I don't see the problem with using buckling springs for gaming. Not really any different to rubber domes except you're more aware of what you're pressing.
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As I've said before, I don't see the problem with using buckling springs for gaming. Not really any different to rubber domes except you're more aware of what you're pressing.
RD doesn't have any hysteresis, so the difference is huge.
This doesn't mean at all that BS can't be used for gaming, they aren't the best solution, that's all.