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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 12:42:32

Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 12:42:32
For those who have been following the other threads, I've been trying to stop my Filco Majestouch-2 from ringing in B♭ every time I press a key.

In one of those threads, someone (I should really circle back and remember who) suggested using expanding insulation foam to fill the gap between the PCB and the metal plate, thus dampening the noise.

So I was at my local Lowe's home improvement store and ran across this stuff...

(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/foamcan.jpg)

...with the intention of injecting it into my new $150 keyboard.


...


...


(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/foamintro.jpg)


But yes, yes I did.


(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/foam1.jpg)

It was an interesting experience.  This stuff goes absolutely everywhere.

What a mess!

(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/foam2.jpg)

So I got to the office this morning after the foam had cured and...


The ****in thing works!!!  No ****, it actually worked.  I'm typing on it right now.  Apart from a slightly sticky W and F keys, which should loosen up with some lube, everything feels great.  All keys are operational, amazingly.  And the best part?

NO MORE RINGING!!

That being said, for anyone who is as crazy as I am to try such a thing, please learn from the mess I made of my keyboard before you begin.  Some observations:

1)  This stuff REALLY goes everywhere.  Initially I had not removed the keycaps because I never thought it would come through the front of the board, but it did, and went everywhere.  Luckily I have a brand spanking new set of Ducky PBC keys waiting the wings after I get the board cleaned up.

2) Did I mention this stuff goes everywhere?  It's a mess.  Prepare accordingly.

3) You'll need to splice a narrower tube onto the main tube to get it in between the metal plate and the PCB.  I used a narrow drinking straw.

4) Wear gloves.  My hands still have this stuff on them.  The can says the only way to get it off is "mechanically."  Heh.  Appropriate I suppose.

That's all for now, will post more pics when I have her cleaned up and the new keys on.

Oh, and how could I forget...

(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/foam3.jpg)

UPDATE:

Got her all cleaned up and new PBT Keycaps on!

[video=youtube;h44LIiaZhHE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h44LIiaZhHE[/video]

(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/bib2.jpg)

(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/bib1.jpg)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Tue, 14 June 2011, 12:46:09
Quote
NO MORE RINGING!!


I had no doubts.

Well done.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: dannyp on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:04:07
What. the-****.

I remember talking to someone about this on #geekhack a few days ago or a week back.

After seeing the goop on the keys, and knowing what that product is like, well thanks for taking the hit. Now we know what will happen :P
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Surly73 on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:11:21
I might make one modification for anyone seriously considering this.

DAP makes a latex-based expanding foam product.  It expands less than the yellow polyurethane foams (even the "window and door" variety) and is easier to clean up even after curing.

In my experience the yellow stuff is NASTY if you get it on anything unintentionally.

I will not be foaming my Filco, but this it the stuff I'm thinking of:
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=11 (http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=11)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:25:39
That's probably very good advice Surly.  Did I mention the yellow stuff goes everywhere and creates a mess?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:35:21
The can says acetone works if it's still tacky.  Otherwise once it's cured, you're hosed.  I probably should have read that part a little more closely before starting.  Heh.  Whatever I can't get off I'll Sharpie black since it's on the inside, shouldn't be visible once the case is on.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:38:51
Oh I'm not using acetone on the board.  Besides it's cured now anyway, wouldn't do any good.  Except hose the switches.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:40:51
Do they put them in the oven?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:48:29
Quote from: ripster;360679
This btw reduces your chance of a successful RMA considerably.

True.  Although it can't be as bad as trying to return a used electric shaver or something.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: canon.tk on Tue, 14 June 2011, 13:55:55
Oh.
My.
God.

Pass.  You probably could have gotten the same results if you just did a few "spots" between the plate and PCB.  Still can't believe you did that.  I've used that stuff for its intended purpose and hated the mess it was.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Lpb45 on Tue, 14 June 2011, 14:06:42
seriously?  Id rather just deal with the ringing then have my keyboard look like a garbage pail kid.  I've used this stuff plenty of times, sealing holes, insulation yadda yadda and I wouldnt let this stuff within a mile of my keyboard,  I think the only way to remove large amounts is with a sawzaw or dremel.  You got balls lol
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 14:09:37
The ringing was starting to piss me off.  And don't worry, I'll get her cleaned up.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: drsauced on Tue, 14 June 2011, 14:11:41
A bit extreme, but at least it worked.  Thanks for taking one for the team and you got a pretty nice signature pic if you decide to use it.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 14:22:03
Fixed...
(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/foamOCN.jpg)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Tennobanzai on Tue, 14 June 2011, 15:23:31
Hahaha I actually traded watercooling parts for video games with that guy. He's awesome
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: noodles256 on Tue, 14 June 2011, 15:26:58
man, he part of my hood
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 16:40:00
Dare I ask where your hood is?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 14 June 2011, 17:46:06
oh
my
****ing
god

This is epic.
So cool!!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: nhwhaup on Tue, 14 June 2011, 17:47:18
Red pill - you are a nut!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: SecrtAgentMan on Tue, 14 June 2011, 17:53:35
I'm sorry but I would never do that to my beloved Filco D:

Headsets + 100% volume = what ringing?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Tue, 14 June 2011, 18:47:20
Nice, now I can see the mess.

Try alpha-foam next time :happy:

It is without hazardous gas and doesn't leave black stains on the skin.

http://www.alpha-bauschaum.de/en/anwenderfreundlich.html
http://www.alpha-bauschaum.de/en/handwerker.html

Quote
Installation foams based on alpha-technology don't stain the skin and can easily be rubbed off again. It is recommended that gloves be worn, but it is not strictly necessary.

Products: http://www.alpha-bauschaum.de/en/hersteller.html
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: litster on Tue, 14 June 2011, 19:50:24
after seeing the pictures, I am foaming at my mouth!  Maybe my foam could do the job as well?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 14 June 2011, 20:25:53
Quote from: SecrtAgentMan;360797
Headsets + 100% volume = what ringing?

That would be the ringing in your ears that never goes away... just give it time, you'll start to notice it after a while.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: rsantos97 on Tue, 14 June 2011, 20:30:36
I used this same product last week to fill in a gap I had above one of my doors and it was a total mess.
 (http://premium1.uploadit.org/rsantos97/PICS/IMG_0150.JPG)
I underestimated how much this **** expands.  The only way I see removing this crap after it has cured is through sanding.  I should have warned you about that when I read your first post about going to try it out.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Wallach on Tue, 14 June 2011, 21:24:35
This is actually pretty awesome. Good work dude. Now to find a way to perform that mod without it going everywhere!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Tue, 14 June 2011, 21:42:20
Quote from: litster;360851
after seeing the pictures, I am foaming at my mouth!  Maybe my foam could do the job as well?

Nope, your foam is probably conductive.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Surly73 on Tue, 14 June 2011, 21:59:35
Quote from: rsantos97;360879
I used this same product last week to fill in a gap I had above one of my doors and it was a total mess, .  I underestimated how much this **** expands.  The only way I see removing this crap after it has cured is through sanding.  I should have warned you about that when I read your first post about going to try it out.

I just remove the excess with a utility knife. Or did you mean to clean up surface stains?  Yeah, they're pretty much permanent.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sinis on Tue, 14 June 2011, 22:11:16
nice work. you are one nerd!
kids, please do not try this at home!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Tue, 14 June 2011, 23:16:15
These are my wild formative keyboard years.  Like when Van Gogh drank absinthe and lived with Gauguin.  Well except before they went gay and Gauguin cut Van Gogh's ear off.

The absinthe part is good though.  I recommend Ridge Absinthe (http://wormwoodsociety.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4611)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:13:45
Btw, filco or not, pinging or not, this mod should be worth to improve the sound feedback of any plate mounted keyboard.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:19:09
Quote from: ripster;361092
You first.

 
Likely my xarmor has already one of the best sound feedback available, but I will surely do it on  one of my other keyboards as already planned.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:20:28
Ripster, it's your turn to try resoldering next. Science advances through experimentation and verification by independent parties.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:22:57
Quote from: sordna;361102
Ripster, it's your turn to try resoldering next. Science advances through experimentation and verification by independent parties.

 
Obviously my xarmor has already a good sound because all the switches were soldered by me, and because the LEDs helps to couple the switches tightly with the pcb and the metal plate.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:25:19
Quote from: ripster;361106
You can't fix a problem when you don't have it.


I think that the word "improvement" should be plain English, and should be easy to understand.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: noodles256 on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:26:43
engrish?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:28:30
Quote from: noodles256;361113
engrish?

 
wlkm 2 gh
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: noodles256 on Wed, 15 June 2011, 10:36:04
Quote from: The Solutor;361116
wlkm 2 gh

wIcm 2 gh
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 15 June 2011, 11:43:50
Updated with final pics.

Still a few keys give me a little ring if I really whack them, but it's livable now, and at the end of the day I'm glad I went down this path of craziness so I can use my Majestouch!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 11:51:25
Quote from: redpill;361185
Updated with final pics.

 
Nice decent keycaps and no more ring.

You catched two birds with one stone (or two piccions with one bean, which is the Italian version of the sentence)...
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 15 June 2011, 11:55:23
Quote from: ripster;361106
You can't fix a problem when you don't have it.

It amazes me Geekhack is the only keyboard forum that notices it.

It isn't
http://forums.vr-zone.com/hardware-depot/835190-need-help-resonance-control-repost.html

Quote from: ripster;361186
Can I have the old keys for chemical tests.

I also abuse my keyboards but luckily Child Protective Services hasn't been to my house lately.

Yep PM me address

Quote from: The Solutor;361190
Nice decent keycaps and no more ring.

You catched two birds with one stone (or two piccions with one bean, which is the Italian version of the sentence)...

Thanks Solutor.  Better a piccion in hand than two beans in the bush.  Or something.  I had to google piccion.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: BucklingSpring on Wed, 15 June 2011, 12:16:48
Quote from: redpill;360635
So I was at my local Lowe's home improvement store and ran across this stuff...


Dude, you have balls of steel!!!!!!!!
Some of those foams can create a lot of pressure. I guess it had enough room to expand without breaking anything.

Congratulations on your mods.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Wed, 15 June 2011, 12:31:46
In Germany it is: "two flies with one flap"

I guess the holes, where the stuff reached the key caps functioned as  blow-off valve
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: BucklingSpring on Wed, 15 June 2011, 12:46:52
Quote from: morethanless;361213
In Germany it is: "two flies with one flap"

I guess the holes, where the stuff reached the key caps functioned as  blow-off valve


In French it is "One stone, two hits"
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 13:07:35
Quote
In Germany it is: "two flies with one flap"


Quote
In French it is "One stone, two hits"


This is the part I like more of GH :happy:

We should open a dedicated thread to the different versions of the same sentence around the world...
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 13:14:13
Quote from: ripster;361228
Thanks for the compliment.

For a while there I was thinking you didn't like me.

 
No, I like a lot people used to accuse my of tricking results, of being liar, of stole images and so on.

Shouldn't I ? :becky:
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: elef on Wed, 15 June 2011, 13:29:02
FYI, "piccione" is pigeon in English.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Surly73 on Wed, 15 June 2011, 14:16:26
So, I wonder if there are less risky ways of getting the same results....

Say, some high density foam used in hobby applications?  I have some stuff I bought with my gas powered RC car to wrap the receiver with to protect it from vibration.  It comes in sheets but I have no recollection any longer what it was called.  It might work well.   What about thin, closed cell weather stripping in the bottom shell of the case?  It will compress but provide firm support under the board.  Although I guess the problem we're trying to tackle is the gap between the PCB and metal plate so that's no good....  Hmmm
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 15 June 2011, 14:27:41
It would be easy for the manufacturer to add dampening during the manufacturing process of course at relatively small cost.  Even on non-ringing boards I would think it would help provide a more solid sound/feel (cue ripster claiming Filcos are perfect as they are and can't possibly be improved upon).
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Wed, 15 June 2011, 14:36:52
How do you disassamble the keyboard?

Is it possible to pull all key caps and then unmount the metal plate without soldering?
Then you could add rubber foam easily
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 15 June 2011, 14:44:38
My understanding is that you would need to desolder all the switches to remove the metal plate.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 18:25:30
Quote from: elef;361238
FYI, "piccione" is pigeon in English.

 
Thanks, I'm used to wrote quickly an then correct the errors. Even when I'm writing in Italian.

This time I missed the second pass.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 15 June 2011, 18:26:19
Quote
Is it possible to pull all key caps and then unmount the metal plate without soldering?


No.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 15 June 2011, 20:58:04
Quote from: The Solutor;361378
This time I missed the second pass.


You're forgiven.

As long as you get me into Sicily whenever I want :p
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 16 June 2011, 03:42:31
Quote from: redpill;361448
You're forgiven.

As long as you get me into Sicily whenever I want :p


My gran mother managed to host 150 Americans in 1943, shouldn't be a great problem for me doing the same for just one or two...:usa2:
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 16 June 2011, 07:21:44
Geekhack meetup in Palermo?

Just make sure you don't eat the bananas there!

(Bonus points if you get the film reference.)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 16 June 2011, 07:51:27
[video=youtube;o557MqBBWkE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o557MqBBWkE[/video]
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 16 June 2011, 08:01:46
Haha nice you got it!

Great movie.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Thebonuslevel on Thu, 16 June 2011, 08:09:55
Hey to the original poster, where did you get the PBT engraved keys for your filco?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Thu, 16 June 2011, 08:18:26
Obviously here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16260-PBT-104-keycaps
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 16 June 2011, 08:33:27
Quote from: morethanless;361648
Obviously here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16260-PBT-104-keycaps

Or here:  http://www.tankguys.com/site-merchandise/overclock-net-pbt-cherry-black-black.html  (currently out of stock tho)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Thu, 16 June 2011, 09:56:20
Yep I managed to snag a set from TankGuys before they went out of stock.  Nice keys!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Thu, 16 June 2011, 11:40:27
Could you post some more pics of the mod? Like showing the edges from the sides, where both the plate and PCB are visible, also a pic of the entire top (out of the case, without keycaps), and the entire bottom?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Thebonuslevel on Thu, 16 June 2011, 15:23:01
Yeah, the reason I asked is because on Tankguys the only ones they have for sale are the Ducky Mini ones that definitely are not 104.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Thu, 16 June 2011, 15:30:47
Quote from: sordna;361753
Could you post some more pics of the mod? Like showing the edges from the sides, where both the plate and PCB are visible, also a pic of the entire top (out of the case, without keycaps), and the entire bottom?

Unfortunately it's all put back together.  But if I need to take it apart again for some other reason I'll take some more pics.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Fri, 17 June 2011, 13:26:16
Added the gray EK softpads today.  Does make it even quieter, but not sure I like the feel.  Will give them a week or so.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 17 June 2011, 13:32:42
Nice mod, and very gutsy. Glad it worked out for you.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Fri, 17 June 2011, 13:47:33
Quote from: redpill;362484
Added the gray EK softpads today.  Does make it even quieter, but not sure I like the feel.  Will give them a week or so.

o-rings do a better job at preserving the original feel, they give you better feedback/bounce when you bottom out. The pads completely absorb your fingers' kinetic energy!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Fri, 17 June 2011, 13:54:33
Quote from: sordna;362502
o-rings do a better job at preserving the original feel, they give you better feedback/bounce when you bottom out. The pads completely absorb your fingers' kinetic energy!

Yeah was going to try that but finding/ordering them started to get complicated and I frankly gave up, heh.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Fri, 17 June 2011, 13:56:49
I did exhaustive search on o-rings. Best specs & value are these, medium-soft 50A durometer 008 o-rings for just $9 per pack of 125:

Part number: 2418T114 at McMaster-Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#as568a-o-rings/

Can't go wrong.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Fri, 17 June 2011, 15:11:39
Good to know, TY.  If I give up on these pads I may give them a shot.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: lucas on Sun, 19 June 2011, 03:22:24
i just got my filco zero. it rings. it's unusable.

i don't know exactly what the parts look like in there, but i wonder if i could pull some rubber strings into the space between the pcb and the plate.

i need to open it up and evaluate the scene. maybe something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/280696895885)?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Sun, 19 June 2011, 03:39:25
Quote from: lucas;363232
i just got my filco zero. it rings. it's unusable.

Unusable? Does this mean the ring is louder than the typing sound? Or that the ringing sustains for seconds? Please post a sound sample to demonstrate.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Sun, 19 June 2011, 10:04:50
Quote from: lucas;363232

i don't know exactly what the parts look like in there, but i wonder if i could pull some rubber strings into the space between the pcb and the plate.

i need to open it up and evaluate the scene.

Keep in mind opening the case invalidates the warranty, so if you have any serious considerations of ever trying to return it, I'd advise against it.  

That being said if you are sure you will be keeping it and are just looking for ways to mitigate the ring, you can open it up, but maybe I can give you some idea of what to expect.

The PCB and the metal plate are very close together.  To make matters more difficult, you can only feed it in from the two ends because the metal plate bends over on the long sides and covers up the gap.  The PCB is not smooth in between there either, it has all sorts of things to get snagged on, so feeding anything like rubber through the narrow space would be very difficult.  It was so narrow that the only way I could get any foam close to the middle of the board was to use a narrow drinking straw that I spliced onto the tube on the can of foam.  Even then I had to carefully feed and snake it in there.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Sun, 19 June 2011, 11:31:51
If most/all switches cause the plate to ring then resoldering won't help unless he's willing to do the whole board, IMHO.

I missed the "unusable" part of that post.  If you really find it unusable I would return it.  Out of curiosity, is it from Amazon?  And what switches does it have?

If I bought another Filco and it rang, I would not try to fix it again.  It was an interesting project once, but also a messy pain in the ass.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 19 June 2011, 11:33:07
Sounds like a night after Taco Bell.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Sun, 19 June 2011, 11:44:09
Quote from: ripster;363384
I would try first The Solutor's solution.  Resolder the offending switch.  Report back if it works.  It's such a crazy suggestion it just might.

 
I think it might work, but not for the reasons Solutor suggested (creating better contact/avoid gap between switch and PCB). I think the resoldering has the effect of relieving or creating tension between the metal plate and the PCB, depending on how hard you squeeze the parts together during the soldering, and that tension or lack thereof can increase/decrease sound transfer and/or dampen the vibrations.

Anyway, if this keyboard rings so much that it's unusable, it's a great opportunity for interesting sound samples!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Sun, 19 June 2011, 11:54:17
Buckling spring! What is that thing anyway, any real video of it, with sound ?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Sun, 19 June 2011, 12:21:01
Haha, nice! Wow, the ping is LOUD! Clearly shows there's no metal plate needed!
That model M pings too, it's clearly defective, PM me your address and I'll come pick it up free of charge.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 19 June 2011, 13:15:28
But what if more switches are ringy than not? Might as well bake that thing in the oven for a ...ahem... "hot" minute.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Sun, 19 June 2011, 13:26:20
On my board it didnt matter what switch I hit, I could knock on the desk next to it and the plate would ring.  

I don't get ripster's fascination with Solutor's idea.  It's a different issue.  And not only did he post before-and-after sound clips that demonstrated it, but is it really that odd of a notion that a firmly soldered switch would make less noise than a loosely soldered one?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Sun, 19 June 2011, 13:59:55
Then stop assuming it's not a manufacturing defect.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Sun, 19 June 2011, 14:28:19
False premise.  A defect need not be widespread to be real.  In fact it makes more sense for it not to be.  If it were widespread they probably would have caught it.  Probably just a bad batch they sent to Amazon.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 19 June 2011, 14:30:35
The one I got that rang was a Gen1 from EK.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 19 June 2011, 14:48:35
Quote from: sordna;363405
I think it might work, but not for the reasons Solutor suggested (creating better contact/avoid gap between switch and PCB).

 
In my case just one switch was pinging (a cherry "fault" not a board defect), so I have few doubts about how resoldering worked, by the way depending on the distance between the plate and the PCB this might still work on the way you describe.

Btw if filco placed the plate too close to the PCB the plate might still resonating no matter on how hard you push the switch.

All in all, as I said before few minutes are needed and surely things can't getting worse, you can have a great or a just noticeable improvement, depending on a number of factors.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 19 June 2011, 14:52:22
Quote from: ripster;363458
A quick reheat and nice shiny coned lead should be sufficient.

 
Damn Americans, after calling alligator clips what we call crocodile clips, you call lead what we call tin ? :happy:
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 19 June 2011, 14:54:40
Well, here you can get tin that's lead-based or not. We do call it tin though.

(I still haven't learned to solder but have been watching some how-to videos).
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Sun, 19 June 2011, 15:09:44
wait, if you remove all key caps, then the metal plate is visible, right? (edit: found it looks like this http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?9735-Keyboard-Repair&p=176854&viewfull=1#post176854 )
So you could combine a elitekeyboards-softlanding-mod with tuning-fork-ping-removal-mod, if you place a rubber/foam-pad with holes for the switches  on the metal plate from above. Then put all key caps on top again.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: penpoints on Sun, 19 June 2011, 15:21:29
Quote from: ripster;363508
It may be.  Although statistics make this unlikely given the current reports of Ninja ringing at websites around the world.  Like this OCN post.  Or [URL=http://www.overclock.net/13920098-post17.html]this one. (http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/1043832-unboxing-initial-impressions-filco-majestouch-ninja.html)
[/URL]
Science has moved beyond Newtonian certitude to Quark Quantum Mechanics probabilities.


Wait, now you're saying that "it may be" a manufacturing defect? It's nice to see that your position is evolving (finally).

I forgot to mention before that the Ringing Filco problem is not subtle. If you've got one of these YOU WILL KNOW IT right away. A slight pinging of the backspace key isn't the problem. I don't think a slight ping is a defect. This is different.

BTW, my 2 Filco returns to Amazon.com were accepted without question. Of course I don't believe in using RMA just to try out keyboards. I would resell them myself. The Filco Ninja's were gorgeous, except for the ringing, and I was unhappy about returning them. Maybe the Tuning Fork Effect is very rare. How do I know? Most other buyers aren't complaining. My other Filco's don't do it. It's a mystery.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Sun, 19 June 2011, 15:31:22
Quote from: morethanless;363531
wait, if you remove all key caps, then the metal plate is visible, right? (edit: found it looks like this http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?9735-Keyboard-Repair&p=176854&viewfull=1#post176854 )
So you could combine a elitekeyboards-softlanding-mod with tuning-fork-ping-removal-mod, if you place a rubber/foam-pad with holes for the switches  on the metal plate from above. Then put all key caps on top again.

 
I don't know how much clearance there is between the edges of a keycap and the metal plate, but a paperclip fits.  It may not be thick enough to damp it without interfering with the keys, butI'd say it's worth a shot if you can find a sheet of rubber (preferably black and with adhesive on one side, maybe a foam drawer liner or something), but then you would need to carefully cut a hole for each switch.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Wallach on Sun, 19 June 2011, 15:42:12
I noticed someone uploaded a video of the difference between his Filco Ninja and a Leopold tenkeyless:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dqJrjshcyg&feature=player_embedded

Originally this video said "Notice the ringing" in the description, but he seems to have edited that out (though it still shows in the description of the Google search for "Filco ringing"). My previous Filco sounded similar except for the Backspace key, which was way louder than the rest of it (which is why I ultimately sent it away). Note that the Leopold isn't quite silent, as you can hear similar plate resonance when he strikes one of the middle keys near the very end. The Das Keyboard S I had I couldn't get it to make that kind of resonance even releasing a key as fast as I could, so I think there's definitely a difference in how the plate is reacting to the rest of the components that may be particular to Filco.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 19 June 2011, 16:15:31
Quote from: keyboardlover;363523
Well, here you can get tin that's lead-based or not. We do call it tin though.


 
Thje solder alloy was used to be a mix of tin and lead, 50/50 for the cheap ones (usually meant for plumbers), or 60-63% / tin 37-40% lead the high quality ones for electronics purposes.

Now the some normative had imposed the lead free alloys, although made with silver, tin  and copper (so more expensive metals) are just crap, and some Xbox users experimented how crap it is.

Quote
I still haven't learned to solder but have been watching some how-to videos


When you understand that you have not to melt the soldering wire with the soldering iron tip but with the heated components to solder you are at 75% of the learning process.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Sun, 19 June 2011, 16:24:54
We are STILL waiting for someone to post a sound sample of a Filco that REALLY rings like a tuning fork. No such sample has been posted in all these threads about this issue.
Lucas ?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: SecrtAgentMan on Sun, 19 June 2011, 16:29:12
So how close do you guys put your heads to your keys?

Because that's the only time I can truly hear mine go ping on a few select keys (Home, left arrow, 6, 1, A)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: ethics- on Sun, 19 June 2011, 17:28:36
Too lazy to read through the entirety of these pinging threads.  I think it has been established that there is a sound made as the keys are depressed.  Has anyone considered the possibility that the frequency of the pinging is beyond the audible range of some people on these forums?  It's pretty common knowledge that the hearing range of a person decreases as one ages.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Sun, 19 June 2011, 17:56:02
Quote from: ethics-;363585
Too lazy to read through the entirety of these pinging threads.  I think it has been established that there is a sound made as the keys are depressed.  Has anyone considered the possibility that the frequency of the pinging is beyond the audible range of some people on these forums?  It's pretty common knowledge that the hearing range of a person decreases as one ages.

The highest pitch reported was a C# note at around 550Hz, well within the range of anyone's hearing.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 19 June 2011, 18:08:21
I must add for complete information tat we call lead soldiers what you call tin soldiers (here I have no clue about the real metal or alloy used)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: lucas on Sun, 19 June 2011, 18:24:06
This isn't the best reproduction--I used a Nikon D90 and Youtube. But it's still noticable, albeit pretty quiet. (I included a WhiBal card in honor of Ripster.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N54eusgrtoM
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 19 June 2011, 18:59:24
Quote from: ripster;363617

You must have twanged this in your sound sample.


What's your scope continuously accusing me of faking things ?

Do you want to force me to be rude or what ?

You should learn that something you don't like or don't fit your idea is not automagically a lie, is just something you haven't understood.

You should also learn to have some respect to the other users, no matter how many post you have here, no matter how many years old is your subscription, no matter the quality of your past work.

Be sure that I don't want to ruin my reputation (that unlike yours is not limited to a single narrow matter, and to a single forum) just to fool you.

So I couldn't care less if you follow my instruction to improve your boards (mine is already fixed, mine is already modded, mine is unique) but I care a lot if you still trowing mud in my direction. It's not just childish, is impolite, is rude.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Sun, 19 June 2011, 19:02:08
You can hear it best, when he strives across all keys at once.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 19 June 2011, 19:04:53
Quote from: ripster;363639
Your audio doesn't sound anything like the Lucas audio.

 

And why in the hell should sound the same given that (thanks god) my keyboard is not a filco ?

My keyboard had a single switch pinging and I did the work and posted the sample because someone asked.

Simple as that, not more not less
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: dannyp on Sun, 19 June 2011, 22:34:23
mine rings too, it's worst with the keys in the middle :( especially jjjkkkkkhhhll;    (space)    jnnnn.

****.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 01:17:24
Quote from: lucas;363618
This isn't the best reproduction--I used a Nikon D90 and Youtube. But it's still noticable, albeit pretty quiet. (I included a WhiBal card in honor of Ripster.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N54eusgrtoM

This is very good, thank you Lucas! Also I'm noticing that the ringing noise is much higher pitch that what we've seen so far, this is a high A note, 880Hz. At least you can tune your guitar or violin with it :-)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Wallach on Mon, 20 June 2011, 01:33:21
Quote from: ripster;363762
Somebody try their Ducky with this arpeggio trick.  Aluminum backplates should dampen this effect more than the steel plate my Kinesis/Filcos have.

Do you know if the Das Keyboard uses steel or aluminum for their plate? I don't believe a Das Keyboard S would reproduce this either.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 01:55:54
Ripster, I can get a Kinesis contoured keyboard to ring if I do the arpeggio/strum thing, or if I just knock the side of the keyboard, and there's no metal plate.
So it may or may not be the plate on that Filco. It could simply be the springs, and the higher pitch on the Zero can be explained by the fact that it does not wear Cherry MX switches.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: lucas on Mon, 20 June 2011, 02:12:39
hm.

i'll see if i get used to the sound while typing normally. at first, i was avoiding typing on it because i hated the sound so much.

then if we can land a solid hypothesis, i'll test it on my board.

this was another larz post written on ambien. good night!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 09:26:47
Quote from: ripster;363849
Try it.  I bet it's steel on the Das.

My Kinesis keypad is steel and does the same thing so I would think the Das would too if you draw your fingers over the keyboard like that.

My Topre Realforce makes more of a duller sound but still vibrates.  Sort of a washboard sound.

So you've moved on from denying the sound exists to insinuating all keyboards make a similar noise.   You even mentioned a Topre!  Please stop the ridiculous comparisons.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 09:46:50
Quote from: ripster;363964
Never said it was the SAME.  Just a difference in DEGREE.

Anyway, I wanted to show Findcanor that indeed I can change and be open minded.

...

After all your BS about the "McGurk Effect", and "sound samples or it didn't happen", and how your Gen 2 Cherry doesn't ring, oh wait then it does, but it's not the switches because the Riporuster doesn't do it, blahblahblah.  You haven't changed because you're still Filco shilling.  If you want to be open minded, why not take what multiple people have to say who have experienced it at face value instead of trying to discredit them.

The question is why is the Filco plate resonating so loudly?  My $100 KBC Poker should not sound better than my $150 Filco.  They can't have designed it that way purposefully, and it's clearly not something that is a widespread issue to this degree or there would be more about it.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 09:49:12
Oh and btw I looked it up on the other thread, and I believe it was alaricljs that deserves credit for first making the zany suggestion of expanding foam.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 10:15:56
Quote from: ripster;363980
And these are some of the Chemicals I plan on using for Filco Key Testing, plus a few new ones.  Assuming you are not so mad you won't send me the keys.

I'm not mad, just keeping you honest :)  Keys should be out in a couple days, would have sent them on Friday but things got hectic at the office.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: gimpster on Mon, 20 June 2011, 12:01:33
Quote from: redpill;361266
It would be easy for the manufacturer to add dampening during the manufacturing process of course at relatively small cost.  Even on non-ringing boards I would think it would help provide a more solid sound/feel (cue ripster claiming Filcos are perfect as they are and can't possibly be improved upon).

Maybe some strips of Dynamat. It's primarily used in U.S. for car stereo installations to keep the bodywork from rattling. It's pretty easy to cut up and apply with your hands.

http://www.dynamat.com/
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: greyhounds on Mon, 20 June 2011, 12:14:35
I was going to chime in regarding Dynamat as well. We use it in car restoration all the time, but they also apply it to computers etc:
http://www.dynamat.com/products_computers_and_more_introduction.html (http://www.dynamat.com/products_computers_and_more_introduction.html)

It's adhesive backet and relatively thin, so you could cut some strips and add them to the face of the metal plate. I'd expect they'd add enough mass to change the resonant frequency of teh plate and stop the ring.

My das board rings only slightly when I hit it real hard, so whatever they do works about as good as you can hope for.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: lucas on Mon, 20 June 2011, 12:15:30
i have gaffing tape. how would one use it in this case?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: gimpster on Mon, 20 June 2011, 12:30:58
Quote from: lucas;364073
i have gaffing tape. how would one use it in this case?

I would expect that for the Cherry MX keyboards, you'd just cut it into strips and apply it to the face of the metal plate. But if you were talking about Model M's then I'm not sure because I'm not that familiar with how they're designed.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: gimpster on Mon, 20 June 2011, 12:33:37
A paper trimmer would probably be very helpful in making the strips quicker and with a more uniform width.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vp-QoADmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:14:31
Quote from: gimpster;364078
I would expect that for the Cherry MX keyboards, you'd just cut it into strips and apply it to the face of the metal plate. But if you were talking about Model M's then I'm not sure because I'm not that familiar with how they're designed.

 

This will likely helps to dampen the filcos resonating plate but unlikely helps with the pinging switches, btw a self adhesive caoutchouc mousse (http://www.koepp.de/wFranzoesisch/produkte/moosgummi-der-werkstoff.php?navanchor=2110027) roll, should be way more effective than the gaffer tape for this purpose.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:24:36
Yes I use the black cellular rubber in conjunction with orange sponge rubber to reduce vibrations of HDDs an water pumps. (google for "shoggy sandwich")
(http://www.abload.de/thumb/cimg5332hmal.jpg) (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=cimg5332hmal.jpg) (http://www.abload.de/thumb/cimg5335gmjk.jpg) (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=cimg5335gmjk.jpg)


EDIT: But I think actually you'd have to dampen the springs of each switch like this


[video=youtube;CJnAbPrmJNA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJnAbPrmJNA[/video]
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:30:17
The plate rings with any vibration, whether it be the springs or knocking on the desk next to it.  So you can try to treat the vibration in the springs in hope that it causes less to be carried to the plate, or you can dampen the metal plate directly so it doesn't ring regardless of the springs/knocking/earthquakes, etc.  Or, both.

But I'm more hesitant to try to modify the switches themselves because it's 1) hard and 2) likely to negatively impact the keyfeel.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:40:20
Quote from: ripster;364115
My Kinesis keypad rings like a bell if I hit the key hard enough.

Since I bought the switches new from Mouser and soldered the plate myself with remarkable skill I am not an adherent to your theory.

 

You know, no theory here, resoldering the switches was tested and retested, btw as I already said likely the led will helpto coupling tightly the switch to the PCB.

The only cheap keyboard I have with just two pin connection per switches is the BW (which is natively not pinging because it's blue) anything else have a led, a diode or a jumper.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:40:40
Quote from: ripster;364121
My / key rings like a bell.

Keys ping.  Boards ring.  

Good material for a haiku in there I think.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:44:20
I think ripster ate some bad eggplant parmesan once and has never forgiven Italy.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:48:20
Quote from: The Solutor;364128
You know, no theory here, resoldering the switches was tested and retested, btw as I already said likely the led will helpto coupling tightly the switch to the PCB.

 
Soluter, I believe your solution will work for some switches, but for the OPPOSITE reason you are mentioning. A tight coupling increases sound transfer. It's not the switch body that vibrates but the spring inside the switch. Think guitars. the better mounted the bridge, and the higher the bridge height (more force on the soundboard) the louder the sound.

I bet if you desolder the switch (remove all solder so the switch is completely loose), the noise level will go down.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:52:03
Quote from: redpill;364132
I think ripster ate some bad eggplant parmesan once and has never forgiven Italy.

 
He just suffers of what we call "the two cock on one hen-house syndrome", likely sounds bad in english, but I'm sure you got the point.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:52:19
There are some cool iPhone/iPad apps like Audio Tool / AudioTools with SPL meters and sound frequency generators. Not the most accurate but very handy.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 13:55:52
Quote from: sordna;364134
Think guitars.

 

On guitars is not the whole string that is coupled with the resonance chamber, and materials are calculated to resonate.

Think to the one or two euro coins instead.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:06:58
On the euro coins, the metals ARE the sound source. On keyboards, the possible sound sources are the springs and the plate. The other components (switch shells and PCB) act as coupling materials. In any case, theories don't matter so much as long as the solution works. Anyway, resoldering is a good solution for an isolated switch, and the foam is good if the entire keyboard has a pinging problem.

Ripster, you mentioned earlier that you don't have a pinging switch issue before to try the soldering on. Now that you discovered your "/" numpad key, can you please try resoldering it and provide before/after sound samples ?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:09:21
Quote from: sordna;364146
the foam is good if the entire keyboard has a pinging problem

I don't know if I'd call it good, but it was effective in reducing the noise and making a mess.  I'd be interested to see if people have success with less messy/permanent foam and/or alternative solutions like padding on top of the metal plate.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:20:30
Quote
On the euro coins, the metals ARE the sound source. On keyboards, the possible sound sources are the springs and the plate.


I can speak for the switch not for the whole plate, because I don't have the problem.

BTW I'm sure that my plate is not resonating like on filcos because the plate doesn't have any clearance with the switch border with a tightly soldered switch I mean.

Looks like on filcos the plate is placed slightly in lower position, so I can't say if a resolderd switch makes any difference for the plate ring. And buying a filco just to test this is out of discussion altough I'm used to test in first person what I'm saying.

Back to the filco problem, I'm sure that any usual dampening method will work, from the rubber foam to the dampening paint (the one used on the underside of the cars).

I used the latter for ages to improve the sound of my line of acoustic boxes, when i was used to build and sell them.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:24:49
I was gonna suggest soldering the switch while squeezing it or pulling it, so it creates different tension on the metal plate. It's not the actual solder points that matter IMO.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:28:34
Quote from: sordna;364159
It's not the actual solder points that matter IMO.

 
Obviously is not.

On every keyboard I tried when the soldering points were melt the switch made a definite "tock" and made a little travel in the PCB direction.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:29:44
Quote from: ripster;364162
This is getting complicated.  I don't think the robo picking machines do any of that stuff on anybody's keyboards.  Dump it on the plate/PCB and run through the wave soldering machine.


Exactly.

Is what I'm saying in the last month.

Glad you finally realized it.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:34:23
Quote from: ripster;364165


From this piece of factual data you concluded it was a Filco manufacturing problem.


 

I concluded that any industrial process can't be good as a relatively expert hobbyist's hand.

Likely filco has greater problems because the larger tolerances, that's all.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 20 June 2011, 14:35:40
Are you guys still arguing about this?

Talk about the ping heard round the world...
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 15:10:41
Couldn't handle the EK soft landing pads, they kill the switchfeel too much.  Mushy.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 15:30:57
Quote from: ripster;364162
This is getting complicated.  I don't think the robo picking machines do any of that stuff on anybody's keyboards.  Dump it on the plate/PCB and run through the wave soldering machine.

 
Yes, that's why artificially creating some tension/pressure on the metal plate, may have a dampening effect.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 15:44:24
Quote from: redpill;364190
Couldn't handle the EK soft landing pads, they kill the switchfeel too much.  Mushy.

I did the same. I couldn't stand the black pads, but gave the gray ones a few weeks, and finally removed them last Friday. Dental-bands didn't do it for me either. The medium-soft o-rings are much better though, they are almost perfect, it's incredible that the cheapest/easiest solution happened to be the best... once you find the right o-ring part number that is! I spent almost $80 trying out various alternatives :-)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Mon, 20 June 2011, 15:53:28
Which shore number or rubber type?
Is NBR70 ok?
http://www.hug-technik.com/shop/product_info.php?info=p2357_praezisions-o-ring---5-50-x-2-00-mm--nbr70.html
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 15:55:39
Quote from: morethanless;364236
Which shore number or rubber type?
Is NBR70 ok?
http://www.hug-technik.com/shop/product_info.php?info=p2357_praezisions-o-ring---5-50-x-2-00-mm--nbr70.html

Nope, shore 70A is too hard. 40-50 is perfect, material doesn't really matter since you're not sealing any fluids in your keyboard. Rubber/silicone/neoprene should all work. The o-rings you pointed to are too big however, they are metric 5.5mm x 2mm. For metric, you want 5mm x 1.5mm.

See comments near the end of the relevant thread: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5450
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Mon, 20 June 2011, 16:10:09
Thank you. But finding shore 40-50 seems impossible in german online shops.
They only have shore 70.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Mon, 20 June 2011, 16:21:23
Quote from: ripster;364211
If true the OCN trick of baking your graphics cards may work by relieving stress points on the steel plate.

Or maybe not.

 
Is not an OCN trick and often works,  go back to the lead free soldering alloy post, to understand why...
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: lucas on Mon, 20 June 2011, 19:31:08
can someone link me to a threads that tell me how to open a filco tkl and how to pull fukka caps? i can only search every 30 seconds

i'll void my warranty on my overly-expensive board
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 June 2011, 21:18:26
Quote from: lucas;364430
can someone link me to a threads that tell me how to open a filco tkl and how to pull fukka caps? i can only search every 30 seconds

search engine sucks, you can't even search for "pads" (complains it's too short) you have to search for "landing" instead. iMaaaaaaaaaaaaav can you at least allow 4 character words?

Anyway, you can ask google to search geekhack for you, for example:

TKL site:geekhack.org
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Mon, 20 June 2011, 23:26:44
Quote from: ripster;364459
The problem is you are searching for "TKL".

I wrote it up using "Tenkeyless".

In fact the Vbulletin search engine kinda sucks so "TKL" is too short.


Vbulletin search sucks anyway, you'll never find much.  Need to use google: "TKL site:www.geekhack.org"

Quote from: ripster;364460
I think I'll open up a "Mod Your Kinesis Keypad To Stop Ringing" post tomorrow.

But it will be in the Mods subforum.

 
I got a mostly-full can of expanding insulation foam I can sell you for cheap!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: MissileMike on Wed, 22 June 2011, 15:32:42
Here is typing on a Ducky 1087.  Do you hear a ping?

[video=youtube;saUOK60t5Tg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saUOK60t5Tg[/video]
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 22 June 2011, 15:44:57
Quote from: MissileMike;365450
Here is typing on a Ducky 1087.  Do you hear a ping?

I hear springs, but I don't hear a plate ring.  Do you hear one in person?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 22 June 2011, 15:47:41
I hear the normal Cherry MX spring ping if I crank the volume.  I haven't heard a single ringing Filco sample yet, since that's what all the complaining is about how come no one has recorded it?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Wed, 22 June 2011, 16:03:09
If I put up the volume high I can hear the springs.
Especially when you come closer at the end.

But on my normal volume level I can only hear the plastic keycaps
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 22 June 2011, 16:05:46
Quote from: alaricljs;365459
I hear the normal Cherry MX spring ping if I crank the volume.  I haven't heard a single ringing Filco sample yet, since that's what all the complaining is about how come no one has recorded it?

I recorded it, link in sig, but doesn't come across very well due to iphone microphone.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 22 June 2011, 16:06:55
If I put my ear up to my kalrykh-krusted shorts I can definitely hear ringing.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19356&d=1308607093)

I plan to consult a doctor.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 22 June 2011, 16:11:19
Yeah, there's a bit of sustain there but again I had to crank the volume to get much of it.  The way certain other users were describing it I was expecting something more obtrusive and painful.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: redpill on Wed, 22 June 2011, 16:25:44
Quote from: alaricljs;365474
Yeah, there's a bit of sustain there but again I had to crank the volume to get much of it.  The way certain other users were describing it I was expecting something more obtrusive and painful.

Well it's not something that happens loudly on every board, so if yours doesn't do it, that's a good thing :)
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 22 June 2011, 17:07:59
I've got 2 that don't do any more than the standard spring-ping, and I don't type hard enough in normal usage for it to be detectable at all.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Wed, 22 June 2011, 17:57:17
I heard you giggle!
Obviously you realized how funny it is to do arpeggio on a numpad. :happy:
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 22 June 2011, 18:14:08
Quote
It's clearly not a soldering or a Cherry MX individual switch defect problem


Is clearly not a single switch problem, soldering could be still involved.

The only way to exclude it is resoldering all the switches, as i did.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 22 June 2011, 18:39:33
Quote
I already did that. See the Kinesis Mod in my sig.


Ok

Quote from: ripster;365567



Rang before.

Rings still.

 
Its also strange that rings with blue switches, usually are the brown ones more prone to the problem.

BTW I found this video of Xarmor in the mod section altough not meant for this pourpose the owner pushes the keys pretty hard and no pinging is present, I used mine for just few hours before the switches change so I was unsure about the original sound, even with the original switches Xarmor's ound is still one of the better parts of this keyboard.

[video=youtube;rk6tVsFcBrE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk6tVsFcBrE&feature=player_embedded[/video]
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 22 June 2011, 18:51:54
Quote from: ripster;365583
Actually if my hypothesis is correct and this is mainly spring sound amplified by a metal plate then the underlying switch should matter little.

 
I think your hypothesis is correct on this board and maybe on filcos.

I think the main variable should be the plate height.

Likely in those cases the plate has more clearance from the switch border so no matter how you push the switch the plate is still free to vibrate (and the switch too).


While in my case the switch (if correctly soldered) touches tightly the plate, and they dampen each other.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 22 June 2011, 19:22:56
Quote from: ripster;365637
You ever heard of The Law Of The Instrument. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument)

 
No never heard, looks like is aimed to the new continent

BTW exceptions (if any) are useful to confirm rules
Title: Any success on getting rid of Filco ringing?
Post by: Dwipster on Thu, 11 August 2011, 15:27:40
Anyone had any further success on getting rid of the Filco ringing, except for that injectable-foam mod that I respect someone for having done but have no intention of doing? I just got a new FKBN87M/EB2 tenkeyless and it rings like crazy. My older FKBN87M/EB (note: original series, while new keyboard is series 2) has no ring at all. The new keyboard has some keys that ring a tremendous amount, especially the equals sign, space bar, x key, and backspace. Other keys have hardly any at all, such as the h key, v, c, e, and others.

It really is pretty annoying. Any success stories fixing it?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: litster on Thu, 11 August 2011, 15:33:13
I LOL'ed at your name, Dwipster!  Welcome to GH!
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 11 August 2011, 15:34:53
Weird, I thought Ripster said only me and Redpill found the ringing annoying.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Thu, 11 August 2011, 15:36:48
What exactly does the dental floss mod?
Do you wrap around the cherry mx stems? Like the o-ring mod?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 11 August 2011, 15:49:37
In the exact moment you open a cherry switch, the ping is fixed, no need to add any dental floss.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Thu, 11 August 2011, 17:37:50
So, for dental floss you need to desolder the switch too. Because without that, you can't open it. Right?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 11 August 2011, 17:40:20
Right.

BTW I'm not sure the dental floss will work nicely on springs meant to be compressed as happen on springs meant to be flexed.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Thu, 11 August 2011, 17:44:51
Btw: how do I remove my left shift key? It rattles. I want to pull the keycap but I can't do it.
I already looked there http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12649

SO I'm lost, without desoldering
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 11 August 2011, 17:51:56
just remove the neighbor keycaps and use your fingers, when the stem is freed, slide the keycap on one side until the stabilizer is disengaged, then slide in the opposite side to free the other half of the stabilizer.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Thu, 11 August 2011, 18:26:31
I can't do it. If I pull up, nothing happens. I can see the metal wire and part of the right stabilizer. on the left, the keyboard case does bother me.

PS: I added a smartphone camera picture.

PPS: gn8, I'll try again tomorrow. it is 1.30am
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 11 August 2011, 18:32:17
Remove also the CTRL and Capslock Keycaps, and use both hands if needed.

Surely you have a keycap little tighter or a switch stem slightly larger than normal, but other than exceptional cases nothing to worry about, just more force needed.
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: morethanless on Thu, 11 August 2011, 18:38:31
One last question for today
Did I understand corectly that when the switch is up (neutral non-pressed position) I have to pull up, even though it feels like the metal stabilizer would hold it down?
Title: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 11 August 2011, 18:42:02
No the stabilizer, being hinged, has enough clearance to let you free the keycap from the stem, half cm or so, try to remove th other shift or backspace, maybe they are less tightly coupled and you can practice with them.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Pacifist on Wed, 29 January 2014, 19:26:21

Show Image
(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/bib2.jpg)



where can i get these engraved caps?
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 29 January 2014, 19:28:47

Show Image
(http://kissarmy.50megs.com/bib2.jpg)



where can i get these engraved caps?

You gotta use the foam stuff first.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: BucklingSpring on Wed, 29 January 2014, 20:06:31
You necro revivers.

I thought for a moment that someone redid the Epic 2011 foam experiment.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: demik on Wed, 29 January 2014, 20:07:57
You necro revivers.

I thought for a moment that someone redid the Epic 2011 foam experiment.

report them, only way to stop them. if the mods care.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: litster on Wed, 29 January 2014, 20:10:08
Ah, the good old days...
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 29 January 2014, 20:49:49
Ah, the good old days...

Insulation foam in a keyboard....... only in america  ;) .  I suppose when your car engine rattles spraying some foam in there would solve that problem too?
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 29 January 2014, 21:36:17
Ah, the good old days...

Insulation foam in a keyboard....... only in america  ;) .  I suppose when your car engine rattles spraying some foam in there would solve that problem too?

Some of my keys rattle when I run my hand across the keyboard, maybe I could spray some of that stuff under the keycaps to hold them a bit firmer?
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 29 January 2014, 22:03:43
Some of my keys rattle when I run my hand across the keyboard, maybe I could spray some of that stuff under the keycaps to hold them a bit firmer?

Okay Rowdy, break out a can of foam and go whupass on that Filco. 

I just thought of this, instead of going mad with expanding foam, why not use a standard clear tube of silicone.  That way you can surgically implant some silicone into your board for that special feeling  ;) .  If it's good enough for pornstars and streetwalkers it should be good enough for your keyboard.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 30 January 2014, 01:10:21
Ah, the good old days...

Insulation foam in a keyboard....... only in america  ;) .  I suppose when your car engine rattles spraying some foam in there would solve that problem too?

Some of my keys rattle when I run my hand across the keyboard, maybe I could spray some of that stuff under the keycaps to hold them a bit firmer?

Depending on key cap material hot glue might be an option.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 30 January 2014, 01:20:00
Some of my keys rattle when I run my hand across the keyboard, maybe I could spray some of that stuff under the keycaps to hold them a bit firmer?

Okay Rowdy, break out a can of foam and go whupass on that Filco. 

I just thought of this, instead of going mad with expanding foam, why not use a standard clear tube of silicone.  That way you can surgically implant some silicone into your board for that special feeling  ;) .  If it's good enough for pornstars and streetwalkers it should be good enough for your keyboard.

I wonder if injecting such silicone under the dones of a Thorpe keyboard would enhance the oneness with cup rubber ...

Ah, the good old days...

Insulation foam in a keyboard....... only in america  ;) .  I suppose when your car engine rattles spraying some foam in there would solve that problem too?

Some of my keys rattle when I run my hand across the keyboard, maybe I could spray some of that stuff under the keycaps to hold them a bit firmer?

Depending on key cap material hot glue might be an option.

A combination of ABS and PBT, mostly ABS.
Title: Re: Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam
Post by: wrwhoami on Thu, 30 January 2014, 04:39:28
filco..
I like sounds this ;D