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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Atenacius on Thu, 16 June 2011, 21:58:19

Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: Atenacius on Thu, 16 June 2011, 21:58:19: I understand that when it comes to the Black switches, the vintage ones were superior. I was wondering, however, if it was possible that the switches on my Noppoo Choc Mini will eventually lighten up a little. I've noticed it happen on my Das with Blues. The letter keys are noticeably lighter than some of the keys in the numpad.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: noodles256 on Thu, 16 June 2011, 22:56:02: smack your head on it
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: audioave10 on Thu, 16 June 2011, 22:58:00: I've had the Deck Legend "blacks" for over a year and haven't noticed anything really, but I mostly game on it and don't type everyday.
I would think that the "new" will wear a little eventually.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: whateverbro on Thu, 16 June 2011, 23:37:43: Put it under your bed for a month.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: litster on Thu, 16 June 2011, 23:42:49: Not sure if this is of any help at all, but I am in the process of of converting a Das2 with blue to black using blacks from a Wyse keyboard dated back to 1983 (not sure if it really is that old). I just finished the letter and number cluster. It is closer to my reds than the new blackwidow I tried at a store. But defnitely they are still stiffer than the reds.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: Atenacius on Fri, 17 June 2011, 08:31:41: Thanks for the clarification. It's good to know that Cherry has stayed true to their 10+ year-old technology. I read a little more about sixty's claims and they all seem to be cosmetic and nothing about their performance being affected has been proven. I do hope however that my Black switches still lighten a little like my Blues did.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: REVENGE on Fri, 17 June 2011, 08:36:25: They won't lighten much. I've had a 20 year old vintage Cherry, a 10 year old Data911 Deck, and a 3 year old Cherry and they've all felt the same. Except the Cherries felt mushier because of significant PCB flex, but that has nothing to do with spring wear.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: sixty on Fri, 24 June 2011, 23:23:52: Quote from: ripster;362328
To be fair Sixty and the Koreans made some claim the springs were some special Stainless steel.

Or maybe Hanzo steel.

In any case the modern Cherry MX springs are remarkably rust resistant (so far).

The RipOruster (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:18076).
Show Image
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2440/5797742257_9f47bf4a7a_z.jpg)

I measured old and new with the rip-o-meter before months ago. Both give the same result. Its not a question of resistance for old vs. new I think. Its more about friction. Its hard to explain.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: woody on Sat, 25 June 2011, 09:02:50: Quote from: sixty;367526
I measured old and new with the rip-o-meter before months ago. Both give the same result. Its not a question of resistance for old vs. new I think. Its more about friction. Its hard to explain.
Measuring the force at (around) activation gives only a single loose point. Plethora of curves might go through it.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: DrunkenDonut on Sun, 26 June 2011, 04:48:28: I have a wyse terminal board with blacks and they are smooooooooth! I should pop one out and have a real close look at it compared to my newish Filco with blacks.

edit: On second thought, it seems they're not too different. The old wyse has a few worn keys which are lighter to press though.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 June 2011, 05:06:18: Quote from: ripster;362214
That rumor of "Vintage Blacks are Better Than Currently Shipping MX Blacks" is a Korean keyboard and Sixty rumor (he has kind of gone Korean).

Is this in the same way that there's no difference between various generations of Model M, White Alps and Blue, etc etc etc?

Quote from: sixty;367526
I measured old and new with the rip-o-meter before months ago. Both give the same result. Its not a question of resistance for old vs. new I think. Its more about friction. Its hard to explain.

Yeah, force ratings are largely meaningless. They don't explain why, for example, a Black Cherry keyboard feels more tiring to type on than a buckling spring keyboard, even though the latter is nominally stiffer.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 26 June 2011, 10:14:13: Pretty much. The old ones feel smoother, just for that reason. They are old and have been used a lot. All of the friction has eliminated any of the rough spots that might exist on new stems so they no longer feel as stiff. Springs may compress slightly over long use also, further adding to the lighter feeling. Similar to an extremely heavily used brown switch board I came across where it seemed like the bumps had been almost completely worn away. It seemed much lighter too. I had the same impression on that Wyse board when I compared it to a g80-3000. What did you end up doing with it out of curiosity?
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: The Solutor on Sun, 26 June 2011, 10:19:56: Quote
They are old and have been used a lot. All of the friction has eliminated any of the rough spots that might exist on new stems so they no longer feel as stiff.

This sounds reasonable, but you have to keep in mind, that in rubber domes, wearing of the stems make the friction higher.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: Tony on Sun, 26 June 2011, 11:17:33: I suppose the switch remains the same but the keycaps and edges are worn and thinner, so you feel that the switch is breaking in.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: woody on Sun, 26 June 2011, 11:23:46: Quote from: ch_123;368322
Yeah, force ratings are largely meaningless. They don't explain why, for example, a Black Cherry keyboard feels more tiring to type on than a buckling spring keyboard, even though the latter is nominally stiffer.

Yup, Integrals 101.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: Atenacius on Sun, 26 June 2011, 13:43:09: Will the tactile bumps and audible click of Blues, also lessen with time? They get lighter but it'd be a shame for it to lose character
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 26 June 2011, 13:45:50: It's a piece of plastic. Given enough actuations it will wear to the point where it doesn't function properly. The question is how many? Cherry Corp says quite a few.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: Atenacius on Sun, 26 June 2011, 13:49:11: Well obviously we're trying not to be too meta with this subject because everything degrades given enough time. It doesn't mean it's not worth asking.

I suppose it would stop functioning altogether before any drastic changes would occur
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 26 June 2011, 13:53:30: Well the only keys I've heard talk of wearing to the point of being different are the clears that are apparently popular right now for one reason or another. Also turns out that it's usually not so much the wear as it is the crap in the key from a KB that hasn't been cleaned. Those keyboards are POS boards that have been in use for quite some time so presumably you needn't worry so much.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 26 June 2011, 14:01:24: I suspect they all do. In normal use though I imagine it would take many many years for them to wear to such a level they were no longer distinguishable though. Everything wears out eventually. Anyone with 80's - 90's high use non-linears want to weigh in on that?
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 26 June 2011, 18:20:13: Quote from: Atenacius;368521
Will the tactile bumps and audible click of Blues, also lessen with time? They get lighter but it'd be a shame for it to lose character

] have a Cherry blue board that's totally worn out in the clicky sense, but it still functions well electrically. Only two switches click like a new Cherry blue , the rest are sort of reminiscent of browns. It's a very disappointing keyboard.
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: Atenacius on Sun, 26 June 2011, 19:28:09: That's disappointing but if it's been used that much that it stops clicking, it's been a fun 5 years or so and now you have an excuse to buy another mechanical
Title: Breaking in MX Blacks
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 26 June 2011, 21:59:03: Unfortunately it Was sold to me already failed as a "clicky" Keyboard, so it was not me who got the fun five years.

Fortunately Cherry blacks age so much better ~my used black boards are Still a pleasure to type with.