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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: spitfire6000 on Thu, 23 June 2011, 08:40:53

Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: spitfire6000 on Thu, 23 June 2011, 08:40:53
Does anyone know exactly why they charge so much for filcos compared to so many other brands that are all made at the same factory?

Is it because the filco units are given more care or are put together by the senior master keyboard assembler?

The das prof S silent has a poor cosmetic design due to foolish choice of materials (black piano acryllic sucks), but the most important thing: the sound and feel of the keys and caps are pretty much perfect. I tried to find errors or irregularities in 2 different das model s silents, and couldn't pin point a single difference. They were robotically identical on every single key, from key to key on the keyboard itself, to key to key compared to the other keyboard. Very impressive.

Now...the filcos do not have a usb hub like the das, nor do they have any features like media control or audio ports like the thermalake.

Also...the filco does NOT have lazer etched printing on their key caps, meaning faster wear. (the das does)

I saw lots of complaints recently about even the brand new ninja brown boards having pinging and ringing sounds that shouldnt be happening considering these boards are advertised as having more stabilization than all the others...

"[Not only appearance but also basic functions have improved!]

FR-4Double layers is adopted for a new board. Through a hole of each switch has been firmly soldered.
With this, it can release any excess load or vibration that you make when you type in to a board not only to a metal plate inside.
It enables you to enjoy a better typing feel!
We also brought the rate of its data transfer for PC to the highest which provides you faster response.
This function as well as N-key rollover meet for the professional gamers."

http://cgi.ebay.com/Filco-FKBN104M-EFB2-Majestouch-NINJA-Brown-Switch-/250842096683?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3a675aa42b

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/info/KE-FKBN104M-EFB2/
This link says its designed in Japan...awesome didnt know that =)

So im just curious, whats the premium being charged for?

Also, now that mech keyboards are catching on and becoming more popular, will Filco be able to continue setting such a high pricepoint?
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Haes on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:01:47
like ripster said due to lacks of distributors around the world. but it's a general issue.
for example topre is also pretty expansive and there's a hugh difference between distributors.
the finnish topre distributor which sells iso fin version of realforce demands
about 170€ + 15€ shipment. kc demands about 240€ (incl. shipment) for the same realforce though they offer
more iso versions.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:11:33
Quote from: ripster;366063
It's also more expensive because Geekhackers keep RMAing their keyboards for this silly ping issue.

Hey, no shilling before 9am.  It sure doesn't seem silly when you're the one that just paid premium dollars for a Filco and it rings like a bell.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: whocares1195 on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:13:53
Quote from: spitfire6000;366039
Also, now that mech keyboards are catching on and becoming more popular, will Filco be able to continue setting such a high pricepoint?

I'm hoping Logitech and Microsoft bring out a line of mechanical keyboards in the future and that SteelSeries and Razer update their line with different switches.  The main reason being to drive down the prices on mechanical keyboards.  It's kind of ridiculous the kind of money we pay for these keyboards.  These keyboards are awesome and they're the best to type on but it's just a keyboard.  Then again they have mice that run in the $100+ range which is retarded also.  Oh well.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Wallach on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:15:39
Quote from: whocares1195;366068
I'm hoping Logitech and Microsoft bring out a line of mechanical keyboards in the future and that SteelSeries and Razer update their line with different switches.  The main reason being to drive down the prices on mechanical keyboards.  It's kind of ridiculous the kind of money we pay for these keyboards.  These keyboards are awesome and they're the best to type on but it's just a keyboard.  Then again they have mice that run in the $100+ range which is retarded also.  Oh well.

Yeah, I kind of feel the same way. Rosewill getting into the scene should help with that if they can start cranking up their production.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: whocares1195 on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:21:25
Quote from: voltrons*lips;366072
As much as the DAS guys cry and ***** about their shiny case I've seen more issues/complaints "OMFG, my dog can barely make out a ping" regarding Filcos which seem to be regarded as the gold standard of boards.

Still, I can't get the "I want a Filco" devil off my shoulder :(

Yeah, that "Filco" devil likes to talk a lot.  He likes to whisper to you to look at pictures, watch videos, and read keyboard forums to check on any threads involving a Filco.  Horrible I tell you.  Horrible.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: sinis on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:28:38
For me it was Filco or Das, because this are the only MX Browns boards with NKRO easily available here. So distribution is a reason.
DAS has this shiny Case. My Shiny Zowie EC1 looks and feels terribad, when you dont wipe the stuff off a few times a day. So no DAS for me.
Then Filco is available in tenkeyless.
And size matters!
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: drsauced on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:36:53
I generally do what my rice krispies tell me.  Unfortunately, they say, "filco, filcofilco, ffffilco."
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Megaweapon on Thu, 23 June 2011, 09:45:52
Quote from: voltrons*lips;366096
I have emailed DAS about getting a key pad less keyboard and was told something like, "Thanks for your input, son.  However if we take your advice on products and produce something like it - you can sue us for stealing your idea.  No go fo sho"

By that logic they couldn't do it even before you emailed them because someone else had already made a tenkeyless board and so they MIGHT GET SOOOED!
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 10:27:17
Quote from: ripster;366084
I call this rule of Internet Forums periodically going bat**** over non-existent manufacturing flaws

 
Bull****.  It's not some random internet phenomenon, the keyboard would ring loudly.  Stop shilling for two seconds.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 10:29:53
It's extremely difficult to build a new set of stairs that don't squeak?  lol.  Someone's doing it wrong.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 10:36:56
Let's just say I know a lot about new homes.  And it isn't hard to make stairs that don't creak.  There are products specifically designed for it.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 10:57:06
The Scandinavians are big on pre-fab housing also.  Certainly a far cry from grannie's double-wide.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:03:08
Why are Mercedes, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini cars so expensive? Same for Filco keyboards.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: penpoints on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:29:29
Quote from: ripster;366063
It's also more expensive because Geekhackers keep RMAing their keyboards for this silly ping issue.


No one has returned their keyboards for a "silly ping issue."

Some Filco's are defective, with at least some keys that don't deaden the sound correctly. This causes a loud sustained ringing (the "tuning fork effect") that can be very annoying.

Clearly you haven't encountered one of these ringing Filco's yourself, or you wouldn't be so close-minded on this issue.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:30:28
Quote from: Tony;366185
Why are Mercedes, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini cars so expensive? Same for Filco keyboards.

lol more like Toyota versus Kia.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: spitfire6000 on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:30:49
1) step 1: Hire 5-10 people to troll the internet spamming amazing reviews of filco
2) step 2: limit production and put price point WAY above all competitors
3) step 3: ??????
4) step 4: PROFIT

GENIUS!
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: spitfire6000 on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:34:47
Quote from: Tony;366185
Why are Mercedes, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini cars so expensive? Same for Filco keyboards.

Filco shares most of its parts with the other keyboards that are cheaper than it....and theyre made it the same factory.

Many people forget that the main part of the keyboards....the switches...are all the same for all boards. Those are the most expensive parts of the keyboard by a huge margin, the rest that goes around it is fluff.

The Hyundai sonata isnt made 20 feet away from a rolls-royce phantom, and a kia elantra isnt made under the same roof as a lamborghini gallardo. ^_^ poor analogy
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:34:48
Quote from: voltrons*lips;366218
Say what you will but I'd rather have the new Optima than a Camry.

 
I hear you, but that wasn't the point :)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: woody on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:55:47
Quote from: spitfire6000;366220
Filco shares most of its parts with the other keyboards that are cheaper than it....and theyre made it the same factory.
So? Does that mean that the contractor requested/paid the same materials, operations, QA, etc?

Just to make you think. Lots of weak assumptions/examples recently.

In other words - unless someone is working at Costar (or wherever) and has the information mentioned above (which is probably restricted), do realize it's only your wild speculation.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: PlayerZero on Thu, 23 June 2011, 11:58:26
Quote from: sinis;366087
For me it was Filco or Das, because this are the only MX Browns boards with NKRO easily available here. So distribution is a reason.
DAS has this shiny Case. My Shiny Zowie EC1 looks and feels terribad, when you dont wipe the stuff off a few times a day. So no DAS for me.
Then Filco is available in tenkeyless.
And size matters!


Here in America, bigger is better.  Hence macro keys...
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Adhesive_X on Thu, 23 June 2011, 12:14:27
Are they really THAT expensive? Majestouch-2 for 150 bucks.....
Considering the fact that I regularly see the 7G, BW Ultimate, and Xarmor for that same price. They all have the own quality issues as well.
You can save 5-10 on a Leopold, but I couldn't find feedback from actual owners....
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Thu, 23 June 2011, 12:15:07
You know, I hate to agree with ripster, but I listened to a lot of the sound samples of pinging filcos, and I noticed 2 things:

1) I rarely heard a ping at all
2) When I did, it was when the key was being pressed and released very very very slowly. No one types that slowly.

It's a spring, for crying out loud...when allowed to, they will vibrate. This is sometimes called pinging.

Now, as to why they are expensive...because that's the price people are willing to pay for them. If they could charge more and maintain similar sales, you better believe they would be even more expensive.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 12:35:54
Quote from: theferenc;366253
You know, I hate to agree with ripster, but I listened to a lot of the sound samples of pinging filcos, and I noticed 2 things:

1) I rarely heard a ping at all
2) When I did, it was when the key was being pressed and released very very very slowly. No one types that slowly.

It's a spring, for crying out loud...when allowed to, they will vibrate. This is sometimes called pinging.

Now, as to why they are expensive...because that's the price people are willing to pay for them. If they could charge more and maintain similar sales, you better believe they would be even more expensive.

1) It's not the spring, it's the metal plate.  It's plate ring, not spring ping.

2) It would get worse the faster you type because greater vibrations make louder resonance in the plate.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Thu, 23 June 2011, 12:40:47
Quote from: redpill;366270
2) It would get worse the faster you type because greater vibrations make louder resonance in the plate.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. Resonance happens at specific frequencies. Springs don't maintain the same frequency of vibration at different decompression rates.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 23 June 2011, 12:45:32
Same factory does not mean same quality and same typing feel.

There are not so many keyboards can be sold each day, so they tend to be manufactured by the same factory to save cost of transportation of switches and the keyboard controllers.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: HaveANiceDay on Thu, 23 June 2011, 12:55:21
I like the body. Filco has the prettiest body of all the keyboards I've seen. It's the equivalent to big tits for me.
I'm a sucker for good design.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Mazora on Thu, 23 June 2011, 13:04:18
Quote from: spitfire6000;366213
1) step 1: Hire 5-10 people to troll the internet spamming amazing reviews of filco
2) step 2: limit production and put price point WAY above all competitors
3) step 3: ??????
4) step 4: PROFIT

GENIUS!


3) step 3 (consistant) : Play minecraft
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 13:36:21
Quote from: theferenc;366274
I do not think that word means what you think it means. Resonance happens at specific frequencies. Springs don't maintain the same frequency of vibration at different decompression rates.


It's not the springs, it's the plate.  How many times does that need to be said?
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Thu, 23 June 2011, 13:41:58
The plate would ring when knocking on the desk next to a keyboard.  Hell I would be typing on my KBC Poker and I could hear the plate ringing on the Filco six inches away just from the vibrations through the desk!  Individual pinging springs have nothing to do with that and are a separate issue.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: daerid on Thu, 23 June 2011, 13:44:07
Jesus christ... we already have a thread about the ringing. Take it over there
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 23 June 2011, 13:45:28
Hey, we already have a thread about religion. Please take your comments about Jesus Christ there.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Thu, 23 June 2011, 13:50:23
I guess you really don't know what resonance means. It's caused by vibrations. Typing causes vibrations. Springs rebound vibrate. Resonance can't happen without vibrations to resonate with.

My comment about the springs was simply that typing at different rates causes them to vibrate at different rates, and if the plate rings all the time, it can't be resonance. Now, as requested, that's my last comment on the matter.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 23 June 2011, 14:35:19
Quote from: ripster;366225
Unless it's a Xarmor.  

 
Yes, you can't use it as a gong, as a dog-chaser, as a mosquito repeller and so on :happy:
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Larry Dallas on Thu, 23 June 2011, 15:41:02
Quote from: voltrons*lips;366218
Say what you will but I'd rather have the new Optima than a Camry.

 
Id rather have the new 6000 SUX.[video=youtube;fl8mQhxhE_Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl8mQhxhE_Q[/video]
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: joysick on Thu, 23 June 2011, 23:51:36
this thread is like asking, why is gold so expensive, there are many metals like it.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: sordna on Fri, 24 June 2011, 00:35:22
Quote from: ripster;366178
My stairs don't squeak.

They must be made by Filco.....


Does that mean they ping instead ?

Quote
Actually in Japan I visited a friend that works at P&G Kobe.  His manufactured house is made by Toyota. (http://www.jetsongreen.com/2008/07/toyota-homes-lo.html)

 
Hope they come with manual transmission, most Toyota's in the USA don't :-)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 01:31:17
Quote from: kalrykh;366699
Ahh, I see.  You were basing your opinion on aesthetics, rather than performance and reliability.

 
I will not buy an Hummer even if it will last until the end of the time..

Quote
Have fun rma'ing your xarmors :P


Don't compare nice looking keyboards with cars horrorifized specifically to please the american's [lack of]taste
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 24 June 2011, 08:34:13
We lack taste, yet for some reason, Ford, GM, Honda, and probably others have a unified world wide lineup. A focus is a focus is a focus. An accord is an accord is an accord. Anywhere you go, in any country, if the car is sold there, it's the same as the one sold everywhere else.

And don't even for a second claim the Focus doesn't sell well outside the US. Or the Accord.

Also, typical continental bull**** from you, yet again. We often get mocked for taking a US-centric view of the world. Well, it's often because we got tired of being looked down on all the time, so now we just ignore you.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 09:42:26
Quote from: theferenc;366853
We lack taste


Nobody is perfect, you have a lot of pros and a lot of cons as every inhabitant of the planet (ripster excluded, obviously).

Good taste is not in the pro list, I'm afraid.

Quote
Ford, GM, Honda, and probably others have a unified world wide lineup.
 



They have some to have larger numbers, are usually gray cars, not horrible, not nice. A sorta of brown switch.

Quote
And don't even for a second claim the Focus doesn't sell well outside the US.


Focus is extremely cheap, sell relatively well in Italy also, just because is the cheapest car of it's segment.

Quote
Also, typical continental bull**** from you, yet again.



I was born in a Island, you can't find a less continental person...

Quote
so now we just ignore you.


we ?

who are you ?

Obama ?

The american ambassador ?
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Larry Dallas on Fri, 24 June 2011, 10:53:40
Quote from: The Solutor;366751
I will not buy an Hummer even if it will last until the end of the time..



Don't compare nice looking keyboards with cars horrorifized specifically to please the american's [lack of]taste

 
Horrorifized? Yeah, I'd rather have this sleek piece of Italian artwork than a Camaro.

(http://www.fiatcars.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Fiat-Multipla-1024x758.jpg)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: gilgam on Fri, 24 June 2011, 11:07:19
Quote from: Larry Dallas;366957
Horrorifized? Yeah, I'd rather have this sleek piece of Italian artwork than a Camaro.

Show Image
(http://www.fiatcars.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Fiat-Multipla-1024x758.jpg)

 
They changed the design since, unfortunately that was one of my favorite car design.



Talking back about keyboards are leopold the same quality than filcos ? The price is lower but the filcos are so pricey (not talking about realforce, but their quality is awesome) that there must be some marketing trick, no ?
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: daerid on Fri, 24 June 2011, 11:08:22
Quote from: The Solutor;366898
Good taste is not in the pro list, I'm afraid.

Wow. Arrogant and condescending. Ignored.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: sordna on Fri, 24 June 2011, 11:16:46
Quote from: redpill;366307
It's not the springs, it's the plate.  How many times does that need to be said?

redpill, no. If I tap my Kinesis board on the side, it pings, and it has no plate. Any kind of vibration excites the springs, even if you don't touch the keys.
I agree with Ripster, the sound source is the springs, the plate (as well as the keyboard case) just helps amplify it.
If anyone has a keyboard with switches or springs removed, and plate/pcb in place, I bet it's not going to ring no matter how hard you tap it.

Hey with those spring swap discussions going around, it would be a good opportunity to test this hypothesis, while springs are removed.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 11:39:56
Quote from: sordna;366980
the sound source is the springs, the plate (as well as the keyboard case) just helps amplify it.

Wrong, and wrong.  Even tapping lightly on the plate, I can tell it is the plate that is ringing, not the springs.  And the case doesn't have anything to do with it, it would ring just as loudly with the case off.

Quote from: ripster;366982
If you have a Cherry MX switch part in a block of wood with no spring it also does not vibrate.

I'm sure it's the spring that makes the sound.   It's like a guitar.  Some tonewoods make different sounds with the same metal strings.  I don't like maple necks.  Ebony fretboards FTW!

IBM Model Ms make a ping sound.

So do Kinesis Keypads with Cherry Blues.

So does my Cherry Corp PCB mounted Ricercar SPOS if I do an arpeggio and listen very carefully.

So do Topres if I do an arpeggio if I put my ear to the BACK of the keyboard.

Not remotely comparable.  You are comparing springs sounds to a the entire plate ringing.  It's entirely different.  Different springs make different pings and pongs.  My Filco would ring the same B flat no matter what.  And claiming it's the same phenomenon as you putting your ear up to the back of a nearly silent Topre is absurd and intellectually dishonest.  It's not even in the same ballpark of conversation.  My Topre makes no noise (and my KBC Poker with browns doesn't ring either for that matter) while the Filco would ring so loudly you could hear the B flat outside of my office.  I know, because someone came in and asked "Doesn't that tone bother you after awhile?"  

Oh but let me guess, it's some McGurk/Guitar/Made-up/Topres do it too/Filcoshill excuse of the day.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: sordna on Fri, 24 June 2011, 11:46:09
Quote from: redpill;366994
Wrong, and wrong.  Even tapping lightly on the plate, I can tell it is the plate that is ringing, not the springs.  And the case doesn't have anything to do with it, it would ring just as loudly with the case off.

I cannot be 100% sure, but there's no way to isolate the plate from the springs, unless you remove the springs. In my view, the plate/switches/springs are so tightly coupled together, there's no way to prevent vibration from going from one component to the other, even if you just slightly tap the plate directly. Something less invasive than removing springs to test this hypothesis, is to put some weights (perhaps books) on ALL keys, so all the switches are bottomed out. Then tap the side of the keyboard. I believe it will not ring.
It's an easy test to do on a flat keyboard.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 11:54:58
Quote from: sordna;366997
I cannot be 100% sure, but there's no way to isolate the plate from the springs, unless you remove the springs. In my view, the plate/switches/springs are so tightly coupled together, there's no way to prevent vibration from going from one component to the other, even if you just slightly tap the plate directly.

Well apparently there is, because most plate-mounted mechanicals don't have this problem.  Are you trying to say it's the springs so you can blame it on Cherry instead of Filco?
 
Quote from: ripster;367000
Try putting the back of your Topre up to your ears like this and type.

Why would anyone do such a thing?  It's irrelevant, no one types that way.  The Filco was ringing during normal typing, and it became very annoying.  I don't care if it rings inaudibly, only if it rings loud enough to be heard down the hall.

Quote from: ripster;367000
Sometimes I hear the Topre "Fart" too. Google it if you don't believe me. #1 hit.

Good for you, make a Topre Fart thread then, that has absolutely nothing to do with the metal plate on a Filco being loud enough to be heard down the hallway by the customer service department.  Not even remotely relevant.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:00:13
I'm not being hostile, just explaining why I think you're wrong and that it's nothing to do with guitars and Abe Lincoln.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: sordna on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:06:16
Quote from: redpill;367005
Well apparently there is, because most plate-mounted mechanicals don't have this problem.  Are you trying to say it's the springs so you can blame it on Cherry instead of Filco?

No, I'm interested in finding the root cause, whatever it might be. I thought you would be happy with my testing idea:

If you have a keyboard that pings when you tap it on the side and believe it's the plate, stack some books on it to bottom out all the switches, and try tapping the keyboard again. If you get the same ping, it's the plate. If you don't hear a ping, or if there is a ping with a completely different pitch due to the compression, it's the springs.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Adhesive_X on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:09:04
I heard Abe Lincolns beard used to ping. It was even worse when he wore his top hat.

I blame the top hat top.

Real downer at the gettysburg address.....
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:16:20
Venting the top hat out the top would minimize that.  You may get a bit of woofer effect tho.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:38:58
Quote from: ripster;367019
If it's NOT the spring then explain this.

I never made the argument that springs don't make noise, just that they weren't the cause of my loudly ringing Filco.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:54:34
Whether it's the springs or not doesn't change the fact that the plate is ringing.  If you can't silence the springs, you have to silence the plate.  But again, not all Filcos have this problem, so it's an issue of the plate, not the springs.  My Filco would ring regardless of which key was pressed and it isn't a matter of having a keyboard full of faulty Cherry switches.  The issue is that when they assembled it they didn't have the plate dampened properly, otherwise it wouldn't ring so loudly.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:55:48
I agree with redpill, it makes more sense that the plate wouldn't be mounted correctly on some boards.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 12:57:35
Quote from: daerid;366972
Wow. Arrogant and condescending. Ignored.

 
Never heard about irony, humor and, well  realism ?
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: SecrtAgentMan on Fri, 24 June 2011, 13:07:56
Well I contacted Diatec about this a couple days ago, I guess they'll try to find a solution....maybe.

They did tell me to try those EK pads, like that would help :/
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: herfalerf on Fri, 24 June 2011, 13:35:33
Quote from: theferenc;366853
We lack taste, yet for some reason, Ford, GM, Honda, and probably others have a unified world wide lineup. A focus is a focus is a focus. An accord is an accord is an accord. Anywhere you go, in any country, if the car is sold there, it's the same as the one sold everywhere else.

And don't even for a second claim the Focus doesn't sell well outside the US. Or the Accord.

Also, typical continental bull**** from you, yet again. We often get mocked for taking a US-centric view of the world. Well, it's often because we got tired of being looked down on all the time, so now we just ignore you.

oo sorry im gonna have to correct you on this.  a focus is not a focus.  try importing one from europe and see if it passes us safety regulations.  until recently american focuses were a full generation behind the euro version.  the focus was designed for europe and since its introduction there have always been europe only focus models, more specially the higher performance AWD varieties that would give great competition to the WRX STI and EVO if they were brought to the US.  i find it funny every time ford advertises a focus here in the us as "the new ford focus"  when its been out in europe for at least a couple years.  the same thing can be said about honda.  a short trip to the honda-eu website shows that in england they produce at least two types of civic that is not available in the US, specifically the 3 door model with a 1.4 liter engine and the civic type -R.  There is a reason some of the coolest cars in the world do not get imported here and that reason is that americans would refuse to pay for a premium small car.  Americans have this idea that car price is directly proportional to car size.  the japanese and the euros are practically forced to drive small cars because of space and gas prices, but they refuse to sacrifice quality and luxury.  this is why you see volkswagen golfs going for over 30k euros new and why japan has been pumping out extremely high performance 4 cylinders for the better part of 40 years.  As americans we are spoiled by the low gas prices and large amount of space available to us.  we see small cars as entry level, something that daddy buys his little girl before she goes off to college, not something successful adults drive.  as such the american car market is quite different from the rest of the world, we are still making cars as if it were the 1960s and gas costs 15c a gallon.  i laugh everytime i see an advertisement for a more fuel effecient SUV that gets an "astounding 20mpg."

you are right that more companies are creating global lines, but there always have been and will always be region specific models.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 24 June 2011, 13:49:32
Actually, that was true until this year. This year the Focus got unified. If you don't believe me, go take a look. The dealer near me has an RS on the showroom floor, too (and oh my is it pretty). A SEL or Titanium Focus is in the mid to upper $20K range, and is aimed squarely at the GTI and Mazda Speed3 (which yes, was always a euro spec focus, for the most part). But the ST which is coming out in the near future will be aimed somewhere between the WRX and the STi, but at a much lower price point (low to mid $20K range). The RS, which admittedly is exceedingly hard to find, is priced comparably to the STi, and at least keeps up with it. It just depends on what you want in a rally car.

But you're right, until recently that wasn't true.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 13:59:29
I shall endeavor to remedy the situation.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 13:59:41
BTW is Ford that is not Ford.


Ford Europe was more a a German company owned by an American one than just an European branch of a world company. Focus is basically an european car meant from the start to be sold outside the Europe.

Very different than say the Crysler C300 that fiat hope to sell also here (after a facelift) as Lancia Thema
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:00:51
Quote from: ripster;367116
This thread has a distinct lack of Focus.

 
Maybe this will stop to be a problem...

http://www.lytro.com/
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:02:37
Quote from: The Solutor;367119
BTW is Ford that is not Ford.


Ford Europe was more a a German company owned by an American one than just an European branch of a world company. Focus is basically an european car meant from the start to be sold outside the Europe.

Very different than say the Crysler C300 that fiat hope to sell also here (after a facelift) as Lancia Thema

That first sentence scrambled my brain...
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:07:10
Quote from: alaricljs;367123
That first sentence scrambled my brain...

 
It's just like Opel V.S. GM.  Ford use just the same brand for the two companies.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: DaemonRaccoon on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:08:34
Ford and GM are two separate companies...
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:08:40
Quote from: The Solutor;367129
It's just like Opel V.S. GM.  Ford use just the same brand for the two companies.

I understand what you just said... but that first sentence "BTW is Ford that is not Ford."  is just not decipherable.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:10:08
Quote from: DaemonRaccoon;367131
Ford and GM are two separate companies...

He was saying that Opel and GM are not (exactly) 2 separate companies and comparing that to Ford (continental america) and Ford (europe)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: penpoints on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:12:13
Quote from: redpill;366994
[...] My Topre makes no noise (and my KBC Poker with browns doesn't ring either for that matter) while the Filco would ring so loudly you could hear the B flat outside of my office.  I know, because someone came in and asked "Doesn't that tone bother you after awhile?"


I think it's useless to keep arguing with Ripster & Co. They really don't understand this issue, or else they're playing dumb and will go on like this forever.

Some quick points:

1. The ringing problem might be fairly uncommon. There haven't been many complaints about LOUD RINGING so far (but there have been enough to be troubling).

2. The audio clips haven't effectively captured this ringing. However, if you're close to one of these Filco ringers, the sound is unmistakable. Not subtle. Obvious. "Clear as a bell."

3. It's probably happening to varying degrees. Maybe a faint B-flat ringing would be acceptable to most people. But mine wasn't faint - it was fairly loud and definitely irritating.

Quote

Oh but let me guess, it's some McGurk/Guitar/Made-up/Topres do it too/Filcoshill excuse of the day.


Ripster has become the King of Threadcrappers. Obviously he's using snippets to generate this stuff, given all the verbatim repetition. "Difficult but worth it?" I dunno, it's getting old. :happy:
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: DaemonRaccoon on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:13:39
Quote from: alaricljs;367133
He was saying that Opel and GM are not (exactly) 2 separate companies and comparing that to Ford (continental america) and Ford (europe)

I'll chalk up my interpretation to lack of a good night's sleep.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:16:55
Quote from: alaricljs;367132
I understand what you just said...

 
Looks like DaemonRaccoon, doesn't

Quote
is just not decipherable.


Was just a joke in reply to the phrase "focus is not a focus" posted above.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:27:55
I still claim they are expensive because people will pay that much for them. The primary rule of capitalism: charge as much as possible to sell enough to make a profit. If lowering the cost can make your more profit, you often will.

But I also think there's a certain "higher price allure" to them, similar to certain electronics brands -- "this one is more expensive, so it must be better!"
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:32:51
Quote from: ripster;367141
I thought this thread is entitled "Why are filco keyboards so expensive?".

Why am I  the only one addressing the OP's concerns?

Concerns?  It was more like a question, and people chimed in on the first two pages before the thread was inevitably dragged off into tangents like most threads on GH do.

Quote from: ripster;367141
But remember the famous quote, "Ping is in the ear of the beholder".  For you technical types look up Weber–Fechner law.

Ring.  And the beholder's ear was the customer service lady down the hallway, and she beheld it pretty clearly.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:35:49
Ripster sure is angry a lot these days.

(http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2011/2/18/15/u-mad-11518-1298062748-1.jpg)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:39:54
Comparing me to a troll...

...fails to make you look better.

(http://www.sheenhumor.com/wp-content/gallery/cache/107__420x340_why-you-mad-allergic-to-winning.jpg)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Adhesive_X on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:41:16
I'd love to see a video filmed from dowm the hall. If its that loud should be easy to capture.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:42:48
If I recall correctly, he's posted a near field recording with a less than stellar mic and it sounded like a pretty normal cherry board to me.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:47:04
Quote from: theferenc;367161
I still claim they are expensive because people will pay that much for them. The primary rule of capitalism: charge as much as possible to sell enough to make a profit. If lowering the cost can make your more profit, you often will.

But I also think there's a certain "higher price allure" to them, similar to certain electronics brands -- "this one is more expensive, so it must be better!"


And finally we are back to filcos...
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:49:45
Quote from: keyboardlover;367172
Ripster sure is angry a lot these days.

 
Yes, its period is shorter than the supposed 24/28 days :smokin:
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Titmouse on Fri, 24 June 2011, 14:53:08
Quote from: The Solutor;367185
Yes, its period is shorter than the supposed 24/28 days :smokin:


I didn't know ripster was a chick...
Wait a minute,

(http://knowyourmeme.com/i/626/original/ohoq9.jpg)
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:04:35
Quote from: Adhesive_X;367180
I'd love to see a video filmed from dowm the hall. If its that loud should be easy to capture.

Didn't come across well when I tried recording with my iphone, but then it's an iphone so whatever.  But can't make a new recording now anyway, as I've already mitigated the problem through less-than-conventional means.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:12:29
Quote from: spitfire6000;366039
Also...the filco does NOT have lazer etched printing on their key caps, meaning faster wear. (the das does)

 
Unfortunately, most laser etching/infilling is done in a half-assed kind of way, meaning that keycaps like the ones on the Das or Steelseries 7G are about as wear-prone as pad printed keys.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: penpoints on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:15:27
Quote from: ripster;367141
But remember the famous quote, "Ping is in the ear of the beholder".  For you technical types look up Weber–Fechner law.


I guess you've gotta be typing on a tuning-fork Filco to experience the full effect. Or if you're within a few feet - don't worry, you'll hear it. This isn't a normal Filco ping-sound (soft and quickly dampened). It's a loud, constant ringing. A manufacturing defect IMO.

I sincerely hope that you'll get one of these keyboards yourself. Apparently that's the only way you'll ever understand this problem. :happy:
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:16:21
A reasonable quality recording of what you describe would help.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: penpoints on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:26:36
Quote from: alaricljs;367210
A reasonable quality recording of what you describe would help.

 
Ripster would just say it's a fake, as he has done before. Anyway, those keyboards are long gone (RMA'd). I still have several Filco's, but they don't RING like tuning forks and they're not defective. They're excellent.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:28:51
I have a couple Filco's myself and am quite happy with them as well.  I am awfully curious to hear this phenomenon however.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: daerid on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:29:03
If memory serves, the only recording he accused of being fake was Solutor's, and since his purpose in life seems to be ripster-bashing, I wouldn't rule it out.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: herfalerf on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:48:41
Quote from: theferenc;367103
Actually, that was true until this year. This year the Focus got unified. If you don't believe me, go take a look. The dealer near me has an RS on the showroom floor, too (and oh my is it pretty). A SEL or Titanium Focus is in the mid to upper $20K range, and is aimed squarely at the GTI and Mazda Speed3 (which yes, was always a euro spec focus, for the most part). But the ST which is coming out in the near future will be aimed somewhere between the WRX and the STi, but at a much lower price point (low to mid $20K range). The RS, which admittedly is exceedingly hard to find, is priced comparably to the STi, and at least keeps up with it. It just depends on what you want in a rally car.

But you're right, until recently that wasn't true.

i didnt say they werent bringing performance models, but even the top performing focus available in the US (or soon to be available) the ST is not in the same league as an STI or EVO, Car and Driver comapres it to a GTI or mazdaspeed3.  the focus RS is a eurospec model, it is not available in the US.  there are currently 5 examples of the car in the US, which were imported from mexico.  So i think the chances are incredibly slim that you are telling the truth about your local (indiana?) ford dealer having an RS on the showroom floor when they are not available in the US with no plans to make them so in the future. the only way i can see them having one is if it is a display model only and cannot be driven on US roads (kind of like the 22b that subaru keeps at its NA headquarters.)

as for the unified focus, the car may look the same, drive the same, and possibly have the same engine, but they are not the same car.  if they were you could just buy a focus in europe and bring it here with no questions asked other than that you pay the customs tax or whatever.  that is not the case.  for the 2012 focus ford has unified the basic focus platform globally, but there are probably always going to be high performance models which are available in europe and do not make it to the US because US drivers are unwilling to pay $40k for a hatchback.  the ford focus rs runs about 25k pounds in england and the rs500 goes for 35k.  thats more expensive than a bmw 3 series, which starts at 22k pounds.  wow this is getting quite off topic.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: Adhesive_X on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:50:29
Finally broke down and ordered an MJ-2 a couple weeks ago before I noticed all the anti Filco rhetoric.
I must admit it made me buy reds over browns. Fingers crossed I can walk away ping free.

I can see hearing it in the same room, but people hearing it down the hall sounds outrageous.
The noise barely registering in the Iphone recording makes me feel a little better.

Hoping the majority of these ping posts have more to do with ribbing Ripster than the ping being a wide spread issue.

Let's face it Ripster is like a forum celebrity. I want an autographed 8x10 glossy of his avatar.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:51:05
Yes, but it has more focus than before.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 15:56:42
Quote from: Adhesive_X;367241
Hoping the majority of these ping posts have more to do with ribbing Ripster than the ping being a wide spread issue.

Only thing is, I took residential construction chemicals and used them on a new Filco because it was pissing me off that much.  What would drive a person to do that, I leave up for you to consider.

Quote from: ripster;367219
Jeez, why is everyone so hostile today.

IT'S FRIDAY!!!

Don't click if there is a chance you'll put me on your Ignore List.
(Attachment) 19627[/ATTACH]

Her nose is remarkably large.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 16:20:10
Quote from: daerid;367221
If memory serves, the only recording he accused of being fake was Solutor's,

 
He does it daily

Quote
and since his purpose in life seems to be ripster-bashing


Ripster who ?

The guy who spend its life pushing filcos and bashing Xarmor (and everything else) ?

The one that call "Italian logic" everything doesn't fits its ideas ?

Why in the hell someone should argue with him ?

:pound:
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 16:33:31
Quote from: ripster;367273
I was always amused you thought 100% of Filcos had a manufacturing defect despite not even owning a Filco.

 
The filcos I own are exactly the same number of Xarmor you touched.

The difference between me and you is that I can find hundreds of your messages where you spread BS above them, while you can't find a single message where I wrote about specific manufacturing defect on filcos.

Italian logic, as you said.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 16:36:39
Here we go again...
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Fri, 24 June 2011, 16:40:37
Didn't listen,  I don't really care what noises you can get your Frankenkeypad to make.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 24 June 2011, 16:47:14
Quote
It's pretty easy to see nonfunctioning leds


Even more easy to talk about inexistent soldering defects, inexistent wobbly keys and so on.

For me is easier to see that just one or two Xarmor user had a couple of dim led, while there's a thread about poor filco legends longer than Trans-Siberian Railway, or the countless posts about squeaking spacebars, and now this about pinging switches.

And with all that I never said that filcos are crap like you did, I just said are overpriced and over hyped, and if you want I repeat it once again
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Sat, 25 June 2011, 03:24:41
Quote from: ripster;367571
No really, I can't hear it all here in this video.  Hear it fine in the sound sample.

Skip to 6:20
[video=youtube;fFbK2z2aHBY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFbK2z2aHBY&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Nope, don't hear anything there either.  Sounds like he got a good one.

Quote from: ripster;367571
Compare to my Blue Cherry Kinesis keypad





Simple question.  Is this the sound you heard or not?

Sorta but not really, because it is not the same pitch and more importantly doesn't have the same sustained ringing to it.  The annoying thing about my pre-foamed board was not just the B-flat tone, but the fact that it would sustain the pitch for a good full second after I would finish typing a line.  So here you are typing happily away on your brown switches enjoying their cherry goodness, and you get to the end of the message/paragraph/etc, and then there's this rrrrriiiinggggggggggg.....  and you're like, WTF, shut up already.  This isn't Glee, I didn't ask for a B flat to launch into a ****ty big-nosed version of "Like a G6."
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 25 June 2011, 09:14:50
Quote from: herfalerf;367238
if they were you could just buy a focus in europe and bring it here with no questions asked other than that you pay the customs tax or whatever.  that is not the case.  

Actually, most of the necessary changes are EPA requirements, not safety issues. My former neighbor brought a rolls royce with him when he moved back to the states from england (he worked for rolls in the UK), and all he had to do was change the glass, and have the cat swapped.

The same thing happens with many Golf R31's. And yes, I know people with those, too. The VW dealer in Norwood, Ohio has one on the showroom floor, too. It's a Eurospec that they glass and cat swapped.

I've actually looked into the rules about car importing, as I'm planning on making an international move in the next year or so, which is the only reason I know this.

Oh, and to put it in perspective, the guy that owns the dealership is a Ford collector, as well. He's also got a GT500 and a GT40, a couple Shelby Cobras, etc. It's just what the guy does.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: The Solutor on Sat, 25 June 2011, 09:23:56
Quote
Actually, most of the necessary changes are EPA requirements, not safety issues.


Funnily enough, because those rules, a Diesel Smart car (one of the less consuming and more environmental friendly car of the world) can't be imported on the US because the EPA rules.
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: redpill on Sun, 26 June 2011, 23:54:52
Quote from: ripster;367703
And to try to get this most OffTopic of threads OnTopic Filcos are expensive because their plates are made from the finest tensile steel as shown by the plates on defective examples ringing loudly.

 
fixed
Title: Why are filco keyboards so expensive?
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 27 June 2011, 06:47:04
Oh, and an Accord isn't an Accord.

What we call an Accord is what Japan calls an Inspire.

What almost everyone else calls an Accord, we call an Acura TSX.

Anyway, as for Filcos being more expensive, when you're an uncommon, desirable brand, you can get away with that. Plus IIRC they do more quality binning, so throwing out marginal keyboards that others would ship increases costs.