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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Brink on Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:18:30

Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Brink on Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:18:30: Hi Geekhack, have read a lot on these forums the last week and thought I would try to get some advice and help here as well.

Me and a friend both needed new keyboards about 2 months ago, and got into mechanical keyboards as a result, and let me just say... wow, I am never, ever going back.

The problem is that the selection of mechanical keyboards here is abysmal, so I ended up going for the Razer Black Widow (it was either that or the Steelseries 7G, and I didn't like the layout of that one). My friend was a bit more clever and opted to import a Das Ultimate from the states. We both ended up extremely happy.

Well, I love my Black Widow so far, typing on the MX Blues is a bliss, and for gaming SC2 it is so much better than my old keyboard that it's nearly a joke. However, I am interessted in trying more mechanical keyboards, and would like one I could bring to the university to do my coding on.

Which again brings up the problem, the selection is terrible. Not only that, but Norway har 3 extra characters (æ, ø, å), so getting the layout is even harder to get than the UK. And at the same time shipping to Norway is hella expensive, and anything costing more than about $30 is taxed 25% on entry to the country, I tell you, it's mechanical keyboard hell up here.

I really love Blues, so wouldn't mind another board with those, but I hear a lot of people telling stories about coworkers etc, complaining about the noise, so if I'm looking for a board to bring to uni. I best go for Browns, which I want to try anyways. I have tried black several times, and I'm not really impressed, I might get a board with blacks later, but at the current time, it's not an option.

I have looked far and wide, and found a couple of options:

Keyboardco has a nice Filco Majestic 2 with a swedish layout (it's near enough to norwegian, so that's perfect), but they only have Blue non-tenkeyless in stock, and I would really love a tenkeyless brown to bring around.

Das Keyboard model S is a great keyboard, and I could order it from a german site in either Ultimate EU or Ultimate EU silent. These have blank caps and a 105-layout, so they are easy to use even in Norway. However, the Das might not be the best keyboard to drag around.

I also looked at options of buying a Ducky or Filco from Taiwan (either HomePC or Armygroup), and there are many options here, but they are all 104-key options. Also, buying the blank caps seperatly seems quite expensive from these sites. At HomePC I'm paying nearly 70% of the Ducky board for the blank caps, which seems like a lot.

A friend of mine is in the states right now, and could bring back a board for me if the shipping is quick, which would save me a lot of money on shipping/taxes. A Das from the states would cost me less than half what I would pay from the german site. But the problem is again the American layout, with blank caps it's okey, but they are still 104-key.

So my main question is this: If I buy a 104-key Das, Ducky or Filco with blank keys and use the ISO, will I not be able to write "<", ">"? (As this key will be non-existant on the board). I need these letters for coding. Or are there ways to circumvent this? If so, it would really make my day, as I could bring in a Das Ultimate from the states, and used the saved money to buy a Tenkeyless Brown Ducky/Filco from Taiwan.

Any other suggesions, tips, tricks, advice, encourgment or criticisms are more than welcome and greatly appreciated.

PS: Sorry for wall-of-text and bad english! Hope you will forgive me ♥.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:40:18: < , > exists in ansi, they are between M and Shift on standard US layout. Using a different layout they may be in some other location. You can always make custom keymap if the location is not an ideal one. If you want a tenkeyless there is Filco 'ninja' (http://www.amazon.com/Majestouch-2-Tenkeyless-Keyboard-FKBN87M-EFB2/dp/B004ZJPSGI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1309437295&sr=8-3) model your friend in the US could bring back. While its not blank, the legend is on the front side of the key instead of the top, so maybe less of a distraction. It's not too much more expensive than the Das.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Brink on Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:54:08: Quote
< , > exists in ansi, they are between M and Shift on standard US layout.

I know this, but I'm writing in ISO as I know how to touch-type symbols used for coding in this layout, and in ANSI everything will be shifted around, making it hard for me to get into. Of course, learing ANSI could be usefull for the future I guess =) I also need the ISO to comment in Norwegian at times, and the extra characters are needed for this.

Quote
Using a different layout they may be in some other location.

Yes, this is what I'm hoping, but endless hours of googling has yielded no answer to what happens when you try using a European layout on a 104-key board.

Quote
You can always make custom keymap if the location is not an ideal one.

Yes, this is also true, but if I'm getting a board I can bring to different places and be mobile, I would prefer to have a keyboard with easy plug-and-type functionality, and I would expect custom keymaps would be stored on the individual computer, and not the keyborad itself?

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If you want a tenkeyless there is Filco 'ninja' model your friend in the US could bring back. While its not blank, the legend is on the front side of the key instead of the top, so maybe less of a distraction. It's not too much more expensive than the Das.

This is actually quite a great solution, as the lettering won't be distracting when I type ISO, but it's there if I ever want to try some ANSI!

A solution to the ISO-on-104keys might be to changed layout every time I need to type "<", ">", which would work for standard typing and python, as they aren't used to much there, but for LaTex it won't do, as they are used a lot.

Thanks for a great response, and the the suggestion about the ninja.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:55:17: Qpad-MK80 is now available (http://www.corporate.qpad.se/modules/news/article.php?storyid=240) and is available in the Nordic layout.

(http://www.qpad.se/uploads2/MK80/QPADMK80-NORDIC-Layout.png)

BTW unlike the Xarmor sister is available just in the blue flavor.

I think your better option is to ebay the BW and get one of these.

Then, if you want to experiment with different switches, you can look to a different board maybe a cheap Cherry.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:05:18: Get yourself a Finnish Realforce from Verkkokauppa (http://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/s?s=1&q=Realforce).
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Brink on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:08:47: Quote from: The Solutor;370511
Qpad-MK80 is now available (http://www.corporate.qpad.se/modules/news/article.php?storyid=240) and is available in the Nordic layout.

Show Image
(http://www.qpad.se/uploads2/MK80/QPADMK80-NORDIC-Layout.png)

BTW unlike the Xarmor sister is available just in the blue flavor.

I think your better option is to ebay the BW and get one of these.

Then, if you want to experiment with different switches, you can look to a different board maybe a cheap Cherry.

I forgot to mention, but I have tried the Q-Pad, and was very dissapointed, it didn't match up to Das, or even the BW. It's probably just a personal preference, but the Q-pad is really not for me.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:25:07: Out of a curiosity I switched my ansi keyboard layout to Norwegian to see where it puts the < > characters and they were nowhere to be found. Strange.
|1234567890+\
§!"#¤%&/()=?`
QWERTYUIOPÅ^
qwertyuiopå¨'
ASDFGHJKLØÆ
asdfghjkløæ
ZXCVBNM;:_
zxcvbnm,.-
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Tohveli on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:28:26: Quote from: lysol;370518
Out of a curiosity I switched my ansi keyboard layout to Norwegian to see where it puts the < > characters and they were nowhere to be found. Strange.
|1234567890+\
§!"#¤%&/()=?`
QWERTYUIOPÅ^
qwertyuiopå¨'
ASDFGHJKLØÆ
asdfghjkløæ
ZXCVBNM;:_
zxcvbnm,.-
They should be on the key between the left shift and z...which isn't found on an ANSI-layout...try the key above your enter-key
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:32:31: Quote from: lysol;370518
Out of a curiosity I switched my ansi keyboard layout to Norwegian to see where it puts the < > characters and they were nowhere to be found. Strange.

You have joust found the key missing on ANSI boards.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:43:30: Quote from: Brink;370515
I forgot to mention, but I have tried the Q-Pad, and was very dissapointed, it didn't match up to Das, or even the BW.

I've never tried a DAS but I have a BW and I found it just crap. BTW I have to admit that the feeling of the blues is not on par with browns or ergo clears. All feels less solid and large keys are more wobbly, not a problem for me as my just arrived Qpad will be moved to ergoclears ASAP currently no factory available cherry switch meets my likings.

So I will mod my Qpad as I did with its American cousin (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17357-U9BL-Beige-edition-(clear-switches-brown-springs)&highlight=beige+edition)
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:44:06: Right, I know where they should be on iso, the op was curious about what happens to < > Norwegian on ansi. On some language windows moves the character from the missing key somewhere. For example in Russian it move those character to the ansi \ key. It didn't do that for Norwegian, the \ key did nothing.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Jago on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:48:32: Quote from: Brink;370515
I forgot to mention, but I have tried the Q-Pad, and was very dissapointed, it didn't match up to Das, or even the BW. It's probably just a personal preference, but the Q-pad is really not for me.

Out of curiosity, what problems did you have with the QPad?
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:48:40: Quote from: lysol;370529
Right, I know where they should be on iso, the op was curious about what happens to < > Norwegian on ansi. On some language windows moves the character from the missing key somewhere. For example in Russian it move those character to the ansi \ key. It didn't do that for Norwegian, the \ key did nothing.

If you use an ISO logical layout on a physical ANSI one, the 105th key is obviously lost, as software expects a 105 keys board while just 104 are present.

Obiusly the 105th key may not be the same on different ISO layouts. So is not said that you will loose the <> characters.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 30 June 2011, 09:01:45: You can create any layout you want with the Microsoft Layout Creator.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 09:18:29: Likely one of the best sw ever created by MS
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: pederlol on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:25:47: This is funny - I am in the exact same position as you, although I am danish :)

I recently bought a Filco Majestouch 2 105 SWE/FI brown from keyboardco and absolutely love it! Just like you, I now search for a cheaper model to bring to work. What I figured out so far, is that the german layout resembles the nordic the most. As you can see here:

http://www.reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl/E500/CHERG81.jpg

you can easily switch z and y as well as ö ü ä to match æøå. All ()[]{} etc are placed "correct" which is particularly important when we are coders :)

By searching this forum, deskthority and ebay I found that the cheapest way to go is a Cherry G80-3000, german layout, brown MXs like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Cherry-G80-3000LQCDE-0-Tastatur-/170644087249?pt=M%C3%A4use_Tastaturen&hash=item27bb2e21d1#ht_1650wt_1139

With shipping it's around 64 eur - way cheeper than the Filco I'm typing on right now.

However, keyboardco stocks Filcos on August 1st, so if money is no issue, I'd wait and get a Filco...

Cheers!

Btw, let me know if you want me to buy an extra Cherry next week and ship to you - there's no tax in Denmark (EU u know :D), so you could save the tax...
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Agiel on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:26:34: It's easy enough to simply use Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator and put the <, > and | characters wherever you want them. There is plenty of space for Alt Gr combinations. Personally I put them on Alt Gr + period, comma and dash respectively. And trust me, if you touch type you're going to love the ANSI enter key.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: pederlol on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:27:36: Oh, and you can check the product code (G80-3000LQCDE-0) here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Dating+Cherry+keyboards#-3000+models

under section "1.3.2 Five-letter (current models)"
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:29:14: Quote from: pederlol;370584
With shipping it's around 64 eur

You can find better deals on German stores

http://www.preisroboter.de/search.php?search=cherry+g80&min=29&max=
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: pederlol on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:33:15: Well, that's just even better! If they ship to foreign countries... :) Thanks!

edit: Same price actually, it's without VAT, so it's 49,90 plus shipping - which in most cases can't be arranged to Denmark or Norway...
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:50:06: No i payed mine 44€ + shipping (to Italy) from jacobs-electronics and VAT was already included.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: pederlol on Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:56:51: With shipping it's 59,48 € from Jacobs-electronics compared to 64 eur, so yeah a little cheaper :)
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 11:02:24: Enough for a couple of beers, I presume, better than nothing :happy:
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Brink on Thu, 30 June 2011, 12:31:50: Quote
Get yourself a Finnish Realforce from Verkkokauppa.

I'll take a look at that one, thanks for the suggestion.

Quote
Out of a curiosity I switched my ansi keyboard layout to Norwegian to see where it puts the < > characters and they were nowhere to be found. Strange.

Not even any Alt+gr combinations? =( As I feared...

Quote
Out of curiosity, what problems did you have with the QPad?

As I said, it's completely subjective and probably just me who has a weird taste in keyboards. But it's a combination of the look (which I don't like), and just the feel typing and playing on it. Mind you, I didn't get to type an essay or play a single game of SC2, it was just my first impressions, but that impression was quite negative, which is why I won't go for the Q-pad. My friend with the Das also tested the Q-pad, and he wasn't all that impressed either.

Quote
You can create any layout you want with the Microsoft Layout Creator.

Yes, this is one solution. But as stated earlier, it's not ideal if I'm looking to use the board on different computers at the university, unless I can look into possibilites to change the layout on my network user as a whole. Also, does this Layout creator work for Linux?

Quote
What I figured out so far, is that the german layout resembles the nordic the most. As you can see here:

Most european keyboards can be used with Nordic, as long as they are 105-keyed, and preferably have blank caps or possibilites of changed to blanks.

Quote
Btw, let me know if you want me to buy an extra Cherry next week and ship to you - there's no tax in Denmark (EU u know :D), so you could save the tax...

Thanks for the offer, quite a good idea! But I need some more time to think and look through the possibilites first! =)

Quote
It's easy enough to simply use Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator and put the <, > and | characters wherever you want them. There is plenty of space for Alt Gr combinations. Personally I put them on Alt Gr + period, comma and dash respectively. And trust me, if you touch type you're going to love the ANSI enter key.

As mentioned earlier, I have concerns regarding this solution and a keyboard that is meant to be portable. However, if I buy a Das, I probably wont drag it around, so it's a good solution for some boards. And I would have to get used to the ANSI-enter, but I would probably enjoy it once I get used to it.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: TacticalCoder on Thu, 30 June 2011, 19:43:29: Quote from: Brink;370645
And I would have to get used to the ANSI-enter, but I would probably enjoy it once I get used to it.

If you're a keyboard enthusiast and a programmer and if your choice is only between ANSI and ISO (that is no real ergo like the Maltron / Kinesis, no self-made weird stuff, etc.) then by all mean go and learn ANSI, as a programmer you won't regret it.

And as a keyboard enthusiast, you won't regret it either: you'll find much more niceties that are simply not available or very hard to find in ISO.

It's not just that you'll enjoy it: it's that it's better for your health. Because you'll destroy your pinkies less, which will cause you less RSI.

I was in the same boat as you: french azerty / ISO and now for me it's qwerty / ANSI (or qwerty / ISO but I prefer qwerty / ANSI by far).

So why not go the whole way: go qwerty / ANSI and simply create convenient combo/mappings for the few letters you need. I can switch at will between qwerty / ANSI and qwerty / ISO.

French has much more characters with diacritical marks than Norwegian so it really shouldn't be very complicated to get Norwegian on a qwerty / ANSI board. Maybe "alt gr" + a for å, "alt gr" + e for æ and "alt gr + o" for ø? Something you may want to try out.

Just the $0.02 of an azerty/ISO refugee : )
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 30 June 2011, 19:47:52: Quote from: TacticalCoder;370902
If you're a keyboard enthusiast and a programmer and if your choice is only between ANSI and ISO (that is no real ergo like the Maltron / Kinesis, no self-made weird stuff, etc.) then by all mean go and learn ANSI, as a programmer you won't regret it.

Yes he should learn ANSI just to please your opinion, instead of just spending money in a keyboard with the right layout.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: TacticalCoder on Thu, 30 June 2011, 20:41:00: Off-topic but I love the "Ignore list" functionality. Someone on my ignore list's messages just show up as: "This message is hidden because *** ******* is on your ignore list.". This is really very cool : )
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: Agiel on Fri, 01 July 2011, 03:26:38: Quote from: The Solutor;370903
Yes he should learn ANSI just to please your opinion, instead of just spending money in a keyboard with the right layout.
This isn't about "right" or "wrong". We're just saying that the ANSI enter key is more comfortable when touch typing than the ISO enter key.
Title: Advice to a Norwegian beginner
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 01 July 2011, 06:23:06: Quote from: Agiel;371109
This isn't about "right" or "wrong". We're just saying that the ANSI enter key is more comfortable when touch typing than the ISO enter key.

Really the TacticalCoder's problem has nothing to do with ANSI, ISO (already endlessly discussed here) or whatever he wanted just to share a bit of his nazi like thinking...

BTW to back his arguments now he changed his route from ANSI v.s. ISO to US layout V.S. National layouts, that is a completely different matter.

Obviously US layout is better than a number of nationalized ones because the shell symbols in unix, and programming languages are clearly tailored to the US layout.

BTW this is not always true UK layout is fantastic to write both shell commands and diacriticals, speaking about Italian layout is funny to see that some accented letters are easily available on the UK layout while are impossible to write with the native Italian keyboards (È) for example.