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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Rafen on Tue, 05 July 2011, 07:24:32
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Hey! I'm new here. I just bought my first mechanical keyboard a couple of days ago, i got the black widow standard version. I was wondering is there something that I'm doing wrong while typing because i keep bottoming out the keys? Is this something that will go away as i get use to the keyboard?
Thanks for your replies.
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Hey! I'm new here. I just bought my first mechanical keyboard a couple of days ago, i got the black widow standard version. I was wondering is there something that I'm doing wrong while typing because i keep bottoming out the keys? Is this something that will go away as i get use to the keyboard?
Took me about 3-4 weeks to stop bottoming out on my Filco with browns. I still (5 months later) often bottom out when gaming, but not when typing.
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I bottom out every single time, just because I like it.
Unless you got some injury I don't see a problem with it. If you would like to stop bottoming out you have to practice. Try typing really slowly and gradually increase the speed over the days.
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Try Cherry clears or Cherry blacks that will do the trick for you.
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It takes several weeks to fully cooperate with any new keyboard, so be patient.
Are you a typist? If you type with 10 fingers, your fingers will gradually learn to press with just enough force to pass the actuation point, then move quickly to the next key.
Try to press half-way the keys and you will see that the key is still registered.
When typing fast, you will still bottom out, but the reaction forces are much softer on your fingers. That makes your finger relax and can type for longer time.
Punching the keys is the bad habit of using rubber dome keyboards. Here we gently caress the switches.
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Yeah don't worry about it too much. I've had my Ducky for a few weeks now and still mostly bottom out, however I type a lot lighter than I used to and sometimes if my hands aren't too cold I can type without bottoming out.
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I'm not a typist, I'm a student going for computer programming. I wanted to try out a mkb since I've heard great things about them when typing for long periods of time. I will just spend some time getting use to the keys and will try to type slower. I don't have a problem bottoming out, like it doesn't matter to me i just heard that you can type faster if you don't.
Thanks guys for all your help.
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Actually, contrary to popular belief, you will be slower by trying to not bottom out.
The idea goes like this, by using less motion enables you to write faster, obviously. But the problem is, to use less motion you have to type "consciously" which is distracting and slowing you down.
Of course, years of training will probably negate this.
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That makes sense because since i started trying not to bottom out it seems like i have been typing a lot slower than i use to.
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Just type on it for a month and your fingers will adapt to it. You don't have to consciously think of every key.
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Actually, contrary to popular belief, you will be slower by trying to not bottom out.
The idea goes like this, by using less motion enables you to write faster, obviously. But the problem is, to use less motion you have to type "consciously" which is distracting and slowing you down.
Of course, years of training will probably negate this.
You just have to practice until you don't have to think about it. You won't completely not bottoming out all the time but you will type lighter.
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Actually, contrary to popular belief, you will be slower by trying to not bottom out.
The idea goes like this, by using less motion enables you to write faster, obviously. But the problem is, to use less motion you have to type "consciously" which is distracting and slowing you down.
Of course, years of training will probably negate this.
This, only this.
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I'm not a typist, I'm a student going for computer programming. I wanted to try out a mkb since I've heard great things about them when typing for long periods of time. I will just spend some time getting use to the keys and will try to type slower. I don't have a problem bottoming out, like it doesn't matter to me i just heard that you can type faster if you don't.
Thanks guys for all your help.
As a professional developer for the last 14 years, I'd strongly urge you to rethink that position. Typing has been my single most valuable skill in the field. If you can type faster than 40-50wpm, you will be much, much more productive.
A good blog post that sums up my feelings on this can be found here (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/11/we-are-typists-first-programmers-second.html)
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I agree with daerid. Since we are in the computer age and the world communicate with each other through the computers, typing skills and mech keyboards are more and more useful.
Especially programmers who earns a living through coding, typing with 10 fingers makes you a professional.
I learn typing by use Typing Tutor 7 (whose torrent I permanently seed), and playing games like Typing of the Dead and Typer Shark Deluxe. Here they are
Typing Tutor 7 iso torrent
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3348426/Typing_Tutor_7
Typing of the Dead, RIP installer
http://www.mediafire.com/?39n09opm4zqf7uo
Typer Shark Deluxe
http://www.mediafire.com/?3iytml19xm9
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As a professional developer for the last 14 years, I'd strongly urge you to rethink that position. Typing has been my single most valuable skill in the field. If you can type faster than 40-50wpm, you will be much, much more productive.
A good blog post that sums up my feelings on this can be found here (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/11/we-are-typists-first-programmers-second.html)
I agree. I'm not in any computer fields yet, but for almost a decade (yes, I knew long before I was in high school) I've known that I've wanted to work in computers. My school didn't offer any typing courses or anything so for the longest time I was using hunt and peck and I probably typed at around 40wpm like that but I knew it was bad so about a year and a half ago I put in the effort and just ground a typing tutor. I'm not speed demon at the moment but I can do better than average (read average as in compared to regular people who can type, not computer gurus) I keep trying to improve my typing. My goal is to reach around 90-100wpm. I don't particularly plan to go into programming, however I know its an important skill and as a self confessed computer geek I 'NEED' to be able to type.
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Especially programmers who earns a living through coding,
...
Typing Tutor 7 iso torrent
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3348426/Typing_Tutor_7
Typing of the Dead, RIP installer
http://www.mediafire.com/?39n09opm4zqf7uo
Typer Shark Deluxe
http://www.mediafire.com/?3iytml19xm9
There is some kind of irony in this post
could you find it ?
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A programmer who torrents? : )
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Ok, so i completely misunderstood the whole typist thing. I have been touch typing for a little over a year now and i get about 40 wpm. I use the Mavis beacon software. So should i just stop worrying about bottoming out and work on my speed? Or will both start to improve the more i practice?
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(http://666kb.com/i/buhu67qglynwcz1we.jpg)
Stop worrying and start typing.
---- Filco self-help slogan -----
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I would say don't worry about it. I never consciously worked on it with my Model M, but if I do bottom out now, it's very softly. You just adapt over time, as you get used to your keyboard.
Also, I would argue that accuracy is more important than speed. I can type over 110 WPM if I don't worry about errors cropping up, about 90 with mostly perfect accuracy. You will just naturally get faster and more comfortable on your keyboard. It just takes time, patience, and experience.
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Ok, so i completely misunderstood the whole typist thing. I have been touch typing for a little over a year now and i get about 40 wpm. I use the Mavis beacon software. So should i just stop worrying about bottoming out and work on my speed? Or will both start to improve the more i practice?
I apologize if I misunderstood. In one of your original posts you stated that you weren't a typist, so I assumed that meant that you couldn't touch type. I was just offering some advice on the subject of typing and computer programming (two of my favorite things in the world).
40wpm is respectable. And as far as bottoming out, I wouldn't worry about it, as long as it's not causing your fingers/knuckles any pain. I've been bottoming out my keyboards for damn near 17 years now (since 9th grade typing class) and it's honestly satisfying :) Just type the way that feels the most natural to you. At this point I would suggest that you focus on speed (to answer your question).
@theferenc: I would agree with the accuracy point if we were talking about a writing field. But way over half of computer programming is editing, which involves a lot of deleting, backspacing, cutting, copying, etc... so for the OP I wouldn't stress accuracy too much, at least until he gets a respectable speed going
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Also, I would argue that accuracy is more important than speed. I can type over 110 WPM if I don't worry about errors cropping up, about 90 with mostly perfect accuracy. You will just naturally get faster and more comfortable on your keyboard. It just takes time, patience, and experience.
That's really impressive. Is it touch typing or not ?
I touch type at 30-40 wpm with some errors, but type a little bit faster if i look at my keyboard...
Bottoming out happenssometimes too, but as many said either you take high resistance switch, or with time you'll get the right feeling.
Today on my brown keyboard i bottom out one every 5-10 keys.
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Fair enough. I did read your blog post, and while I agree to an extent that you need skill in your chosen medium (typing, in our case), I wouldn't call it the most important. It's like saying an illustrator is a bad artist because they don't paint. Or a pitcher sucks at baseball because he can barely hit.
First and foremost, you need to be a good developer. I actually know lots of amazing computer scientists who can't type worth a damn. I know people on the C++ standards committee that aren't very good typists, but they are AMAZINGLY good with algorithms and mathematics.
So yeah, if you're just a coding monkey, implementing others' ideas, then typing is the most important skill. Otherwise I would claim the most important skill is problem solving, followed closely by the ability to model a problem, mathematics, and knowledge within the problem domain.
But, you know, strokes and folks.
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First and foremost, you need to be a good developer. I actually know lots of amazing computer scientists who can't type worth a damn. I know people on the C++ standards committee that aren't very good typists, but they are AMAZINGLY good with algorithms and mathematics.
It's funny that if the same thought is written by the solutor become the insanest idea ever seen on the planet...
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It's funny that if the same thought is written by the solutor become the insanest idea ever seen on the planet...
Learn to type! lols!
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wrong topic
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Fair enough. I did read your blog post, and while I agree to an extent that you need skill in your chosen medium (typing, in our case), I wouldn't call it the most important. It's like saying an illustrator is a bad artist because they don't paint. Or a pitcher sucks at baseball because he can barely hit.
First and foremost, you need to be a good developer. I actually know lots of amazing computer scientists who can't type worth a damn. I know people on the C++ standards committee that aren't very good typists, but they are AMAZINGLY good with algorithms and mathematics.
So yeah, if you're just a coding monkey, implementing others' ideas, then typing is the most important skill. Otherwise I would claim the most important skill is problem solving, followed closely by the ability to model a problem, mathematics, and knowledge within the problem domain.
But, you know, strokes and folks.
I have to agree with this. Even though I'm proud of my 140WPM (when I'm at speed typing things that are easy for me to type) I'd gladly trade some of that to be better at these other skills.
That said, typing quickly WILL save you time. In a realistic work environment a lot of your day is going to be sending email, typing up documentation, and writing boiler plate code. The faster you get through that stuff the more time you have available to spend thinking about algorithms and architecture. It's a balance.
Playing typing games is fun and, if you do it enough, it'll make you a better. I'd like to attribute most of my typing speed to just chatting with people on AIM/Google Talk all day actually. I never took any formal lessons and just taught myself and I type faster than almost everyone I know. When I do want to practice a bit and stretch my skills I hop onto TypeRacer (http://play.typeracer.com/) and see how I do. If there are a lot of words/characters that I'm not used to typing I'll even get as low as 80WPM and it points out to me things that I really need to work on.
So, entirely on topic, don't focus on not bottoming out. I've been using mechanicals for 6-7 months now and still bottom out every single key press, just not as hard as I used to and I'm fine with that. Some people believe that bottoming out is bad, I disagree. Figure out what works best for you to balance speed and accuracy and stick to it!
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As a professional developer for the last 14 years, I'd strongly urge you to rethink that position. Typing has been my single most valuable skill in the field. If you can type faster than 40-50wpm, you will be much, much more productive.
A good blog post that sums up my feelings on this can be found here (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/11/we-are-typists-first-programmers-second.html)
Daerid, I fully agree with you. I learned to touch type for the exact reasons you mentioned. However my productivity really took off years later, when I switched to Kinesis contoured keyboards. Only then I was able to really not rely on looking at the keyboard at all.
Have you tried one? I highly recommend it! Typing can't get any more comfortable that this, with this keyboard you can even touch type the numbers without errors. You can jump from a letter in the bottom row, to a number in the top row with 100% accuracy.
[video=youtube;0hE62iqWCyw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hE62iqWCyw[/video]
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While the kinesis is awesome, especially for people with hand injuries, the problem with them is that you really need to use them, and only them, all the time. I have one (black, with brown switches), and while I can type on it reasonably well, if slowly, it just feels wonky. And the muscle memory is totally wrong in regards to the thumb switches.
One of these days, I will probably just sell the thing.
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While the kinesis is awesome, especially for people with hand injuries, the problem with them is that you really need to use them, and only them, all the time.
Actually, it's only worth to to use them all the time for the first few weeks, till you get really comfortable with the keyboard (ideally till you reach your normal WPM). Then you can go back and forth between different keyboards without issue. I do it all the time, but my WPM is way faster on the Kinesis, I get about 90 average on Kinesis / Dvorak. I don't think I was ever faster than 70 WPM on traditional staggered boards. I just tried typeracer.com on a mac laptop (qwerty) and got 63 WPM. So you can be productive on both keyboards, but if you fully train yourself to both keyboard styles, the limits are much higher on keyboards like Kinesis / Maltron.
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Daerid, I fully agree with you. I learned to touch type for the exact reasons you mentioned. However my productivity really took off years later, when I switched to Kinesis contoured keyboards. Only then I was able to really not rely on looking at the keyboard at all.
Have you tried one? I highly recommend it! Typing can't get any more comfortable that this, with this keyboard you can even touch type the numbers without errors. You can jump from a letter in the bottom row, to a number in the top row with 100% accuracy.
[video=youtube;0hE62iqWCyw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hE62iqWCyw[/video]
I gotta say it's pretty painful watching this guy type in the video. It's agonizingly slow and looks like he's feeling out every single key individually. Not the best display of what these things can do. I had to stop the video after 40 seconds because it was so frustrating waiting for him to start typing faster haha. :)
(nothing against the Kinesis, I actually work with a guy who is quite fast on his but this video is rough!)
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It looks like a slowish / average typist. He is actually doing about 50 WPM, most people can relate to this better than to an super-fast 100+ typist.
I wouldn't call 50 WPM agonizingly slow by any stretch, people in this thread reported doing lower WPM than this when touch typing.
I believe the video does show the comfort and the relaxed natural hand position. The keys are also in very predictable locations; you will get far fewer errors with a matrix layout, rather than a staggered asymmetric layout (the layout for the left hand in standard keyboards in horrendous for touch typing).
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My main issue with the kinesis has always been that I learned to touch type on a UNIX keyboard, spending most of my day in emacs, with all of the control use that implies. And I definitely don't touch type "properly", in that I hit certain keys with the "wrong" hand, or the wrong finger. But it's comfortable for me, and I attain useful typing rates even so. But because of that, the kinesis really throws me for the first few days when I use it.
Eventually I get used to it, but it never feels right to me. Can't really explain it beyond that.
Also, sordna, I've been wondering, what car is that from? It looks like an Autobahn trim VW, but the gears are in the wrong place. At least, R has always been in the 1 position on every VW I've ever driven.
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It looks like a slowish / average typist. He is actually doing about 50 WPM, most people can relate to this better than to an super-fast 100+ typist.
I wouldn't call 50 WPM agonizingly slow by any stretch, people in this thread reported doing lower WPM than this when touch typing.
I believe the video does show the comfort and the relaxed natural hand position. The keys are also in very predictable locations; you will get far fewer errors with a matrix layout, rather than a staggered asymmetric layout (the layout for the left hand in standard keyboards in horrendous for touch typing).
Haha well it's agonizingly slow for me. I guess I just can't relate. I dunno man, I don't get that many errors on my Filco and I type pretty quickly. I think it's just whatever ends up feeling natural for you. A Filco with a good wrist rest just feels perfect for me. I've played on my coworker's Kinesis and that thing feels weird as heck to me and really not all that comfortable.
Props to whatever you like but a traditional ANSI QWERTY board works out just fine for me. :)
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I use vim, so I swapped escape/end to have escape on my thumb. I also remapped tab/delete for the same reason!
I use the control a lot too however (in bash) and found its location perfectly fine, as long as you have the discipline to use both hands:
For CTRL-A, you need to use the right control key. For CTRL-L, you need to use the left control key.
It's actually *faster* and much better on your hands.
One-handed key combos are a bad habit, and a hard one to break.
Regarding my avatar, I'll leave identifying the vehicle as an exercise to the reader :-)
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I like the default location of ESC with vim because when I want to go into Normal mode I spam that thing 100 times like I'm trying to raise my APM. :)
When I'm particularly spazzy I spam ESC with my left middle finger and keep hitting j/k with my right hand. Silly habit of mine. And then when I want to start moving around for real and have my bearings I hit '0' to go to the beginning of the line.
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I've had Caps remapped to escape for vim use for so long I can't remember how to type without it
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I've had Caps remapped to escape for vim use for so long I can't remember how to type without it
Caps is my CTRL button always and forever, couldn't have it any other way!
Edit: Also love that there are so many vim users here. <3
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Yes, vim is awesome. Actually, I've even swapeed the up/down arrow keys on the Kinesis due to vi making me associate UP with my middle finger and DOWN with my index finger. Arrow keys feel perfect now! I also love being able to remap the keyboard without software, it's an awesome feature. Every keyboard should have this.
Having my custom layout even when in the BIOS or LILO / grub boot loaders is very nice!