geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: F u r u y á on Thu, 07 July 2011, 14:49:04
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I'm looking for a new mechanical keyboard. After a few hours google'ing, I decided to choose one with Cherry MX Brown switches (its force-diagram shows very close activation and reset points, so it might be easier to double tap ( henceforth "DT")).
And that's the only thing that started to annoy me a bit in my rubber dome IBM keyboard. I'm struggling a bit to make fast DTs. So for me is really important that DT is considerably easier in a Brown switch than in a rubber dome switch (for playing StarCraft II).
- Is the Cherry MX Brown switch good for fast double tapping?
I've also read that Browns don't provied a good tactile feedback, but I'm not too worried about that; my main concern at the moment is how it performs with DT.
Also, I measured 55.6g (56.4cN) activation force in my current rubber dome IBM keyboard and I think I will like the 20% lighter activation of MX Brown (smooth and elegant typing :cool:).
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Yes, brown as well as black (linear) and red (light force, linear) cherries will be easier to double tap than a blue or buckling spring switch.
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ok,
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In my experience my linear cherry black switches are easier to accurately double tap than either my cherry browns or blues. I would go as far as to say I won't game with my brown or blue switches.
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In my experience my linear cherry black switches are easier to accurately double tap than either my cherry browns or blues. I would go as far as to say I won't game with my brown or blue switches.
"accurately double tap" are strong words.
I would switch my choice to MX Black if double tapping is far better in linear Cherry Blacks.
Now I'm wondering whether the tactile feedback makes any difference for RTS gaming.
The only thing that bothers me a bit about Blacks is that they have 60cN actuation point which is 10% higher than the one of my current keyboard (wanted a lighter actuation). Do you think that double tapping is really far superior in Black in comparison to Brown?
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Check out this thread for really good advice for keys in regards to double tapping:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19529-SC2-RTS-Player-wanting-choc-mini-red-or-brown-switch&p=375616&viewfull=1#post375616
I actually really dislike my Blacks for fast tapping of keys while gaming. I would never recommend them for that at all. The tacility of Browns actually does play a factor once you get used to it.
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Check out this thread for really good advice for keys in regards to double tapping:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19529-SC2-RTS-Player-wanting-choc-mini-red-or-brown-switch&p=375616&viewfull=1#post375616
I actually really dislike my Blacks for fast tapping of keys while gaming. I would never recommend them for that at all. The tacility of Browns actually does play a factor once you get used to it.
I've just read that thread, and RayRay post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19529-SC2-RTS-Player-wanting-choc-mini-red-or-brown-switch&p=375616&viewfull=1#post375616) convinced me for now.
Now the problem is which Brown keyboard. Currently, viable options for me (there are stores that ship to Brazil) are Das S Silent, Ducky DK 9008-G2 and ZOWIE CELERITAS. If you have other suggestions (even if you don't know a store that ships internationally) please let me know.
To be honest I don't even need that "high tech" equipment. I'm just Diamond level and my APM is not even high. But, as I said, the double tap in my current keyboard is becoming more and more annoying.
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And that's the only thing that started to annoy me a bit in my rubber dome IBM keyboard. I'm struggling a bit to make fast DTs. So for me is really important that DT is considerably easier in a Brown switch than in a rubber dome switch (for playing StarCraft II).
Browns are good for DT , but frankly no mechanical switch can match a decent RD in this specific aspect, maybe just the leaf spring switches can give you a similar performances.
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Browns are good for DT , but frankly no mechanical switch can match a decent RD in this specific aspect, maybe just the leaf spring switches can give you a similar performances.
oh god :eek:
are you sure?
It looks like I'll have to discipline myself to tap not too fast.
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Nothing is like a first person test, so don't take my opinion as an absolute truth.
But if you ask me what's better to drive off road i don't suggest Ferraris or Lamorghinis and even a say BMW X5 isn't still not a Jeep or a Hummer.
Browns are a good compromise between various factors and surely they perform better than a worn out RD even on DT side, but as any compromise they hardly win in any of the single aspects.
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Yes, I liked it mainly because it has low actuation, slight tactile feedback and the actuation and reset points very close to each other.
Indeed my current RD is very worn out.
Now I'm relieved (or less concerned). :smile:
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r2d2
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I'm not really sure what he's saying about double tapping honestly. I can DT just as quickly on my brown as a RD.
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Yes, brown as well as black (linear) and red (light force, linear) cherries will be easier to double tap than a blue or buckling spring switch.
Contrary to popular belief double tapping can be done just as fast on a buckling spring keyboard.
Full depression and actuation force can be done in the same amount of time it takes to double tap a linear cherry switch. I double tap at the same rate on either keyboard with the same amount of effort.
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Contrary to popular belief
And a couple of physic laws..
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Which laws would those be, exactly? Be specific, and feel free to be technical. I have a physics degree.
If you're only pushing just past the tactile point, releasing, then pushing it past again, on a BS keyboard that's pretty easy to do. I imagine on a brown, as well, even if the tactile bump doesn't quite match actuation.
Besides, we're talking millimeter distances here. The acceleration your finger can create in that distance is pretty much the same, regardless of switch type, with the exception of rubber dome, simply because with rubber dome, you have to push all the way to actuate, and the back plate stops your travel. But you can do exactly the same thing on a mechanical switch.
Get what you think is comfortable, and you'll be fine.
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Which laws would those be, exactly? Be specific, and feel free to be technical. I have a physics degree.
I'm always technical when is needed
And there isn't the need to be Albert Einstein to understand that the mechanical hysteresis of a blue switch or a buckling spring, is higher than the one from a brown switch, which is higher than the one of a black switch or a rubber dome.
On a RD the end of the stoke is also coincident with the activation point that makes easier to feel it if compared with a black switch.
On a rubber dome you can (not so) theoretically use a vibrator on top of a key to reach 100 or 200 activations per second, this is just impossible on BS, on a Blue switch and even on a brown one, because the additional travel you have to do to activate and deactivate the contact.
On a black or red you can do it, but you have to carefully calibrate the average point, something that one can get used to, but still way more difficult that what happens on a RD
Besides, we're talking millimeter distances here. The acceleration your finger can create in that distance is pretty much the same
Yes the acceleration can be roughly the same, but the travel needed is not. On a RD (a membrane based RD I mean) you can close and open the contact with a travel of few microns, while on a BS we are speaking about millimiters.
Get what you think is comfortable, and you'll be fine.
This is absolutely true but was not the point discussed here.
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I'm not really sure what he's saying about double tapping honestly. I can DT just as quickly on my brown as a RD.
I'm talking about (in SC2) going to a building through its numbered hotkey. Maybe I'm just trying to double tap too fast but anyways I want a new keyboard.
Any suggestions for Browns?
Currently I think I will go for a ZOWIE CELERITAS because they have a lot of layouts available (some are very similar to Brazilian). US layout is screwed for me because it doesn't have a key between 'Left Shift' and 'Z'.
Also, unlike Razer and SteelSeries, ZOWIE is as a gaming brand that have earned my respect and they must have a reason to pick Browns (other gaming brands put Blacks or Blues).
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In my experience my linear cherry black switches are easier to accurately double tap than either my cherry browns or blues. I would go as far as to say I won't game with my brown or blue switches.
I completely support, agree, and also would like to reiterate this comment.
Blacks = the best hands down for gaming
Browns = decent for gaming, but are way too light imo. The tactile bump is almost nonexistant, and for gaming purposes i think its distracting and unnessesary because you will definitely bottom out a brown switch key every single time (guaranteed when gaming)
Blues = no good for gaming compared to the other 2, actuation point is too far from reset, makes double tap weird and uncomfortable. Also, imo the click of blues is distracting when gaming, as is the tactile bump.
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I completely support, agree, and also would like to reiterate this comment.
Blacks = the best hands down for gaming
Browns = decent for gaming, but are way too light imo. The tactile bump is almost nonexistant, and for gaming purposes i think its distracting and unnessesary because you will definitely bottom out a brown switch key every single time (guaranteed when gaming)
Blues = no good for gaming compared to the other 2, actuation point is too far from reset, makes double tap weird and uncomfortable. Also, imo the click of blues is distracting when gaming, as is the tactile bump.
Yea, there must be also a reason for a lot of gaming brands to pick Blacks.
But, I'll be a bit stubborn here and say that that might be true for 'general' gaming or, more specifically, FPS. Perhaps Browns got some nice feedbacks from SC2 players because it's good for this specific game and it might be not that good for other games.
So, for the third time asking (and no answers so far):
Which Brown keyboard do you recommend (or do not recommed)?
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I can game on anything. I've played UT99 with buckling spring and cherry blue boards without any issues.
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I can game on anything too. But I could generally care less about double tapping. Whenever I actually need it I have no actual difficulties doing so.
As to the browns question, I'd vote for das. But then, theirs as a blue is the only modern board I've even seen (of ones listed), so that may not be accurate. I can tell you that there was some kind of thing people were complaining about the zowie for. I'd look up some of those threads before you buy if i was u.
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I can game on anything too. But I could generally care less about double tapping. Whenever I actually need it I have no actual difficulties doing so.
As to the browns question, I'd vote for das. But then, theirs as a blue is the only modern board I've even seen (of ones listed), so that may not be accurate. I can tell you that there was some kind of thing people were complaining about the zowie for. I'd look up some of those threads before you buy if i was u.
I was going for ZOWIE mostly because of the layouts available. Initially I was very tempted for Das S Professional but I don't know if I can find it in layouts other than US.
Do you know if there's a store that has multiples layouts available to choose from and does ship internationally?
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For the das? I'm pretty sure they sell just the one thing.
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What about for the other brands?
Is really just ZOWIE that has different layouts option?
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I can tell you that there was some kind of thing people were complaining about the zowie for. I'd look up some of those threads before you buy if i was u.
I've just done reading this whole thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?14113-my-new-keyboard-Zowie-Celeritas!/page8). The main issue are that the printing wears out fast. And some reported bad space bar.
But one user has reported that the Brown switch tactile feedback is uncharacteristically sharper, and I liked that.
If there are any other issues not covered in that thread please let me know. For now I'm still sticking with it.
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spitfire6000
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I've just done reading this whole thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?14113-my-new-keyboard-Zowie-Celeritas!/page8). The main issue are that the printing wears out fast. And some reported bad space bar.
But one user has reported that the Brown switch tactile feedback is uncharacteristically sharper, and I liked that.
If there are any other issues not covered in that thread please let me know. For now I'm still sticking with it.
Could there really be that much of a difference between the different boards feel? I mean....the switches are all exactly the same...all made in the same Cherry factory in germany if im not mistaken. Only difference is maybe some manufacturers "cherry pick" their switches, to make sure not to get any bad ones. Otherwise...the only difference would be key caps and back plate...neither of which can make a big difference in the tactile feel of the bump.
If im wrong, correct me plz, im curious about this as well.
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srsly, i like mx blues for gaming and i know a lot of gamers who are playing with mx blues (yes, even double tapping).
if mx blues are your first mechanical keys, you get used to them while gaming. but in general i would say mx browns, blacks and reds.
if you like the feeling of a bump go for browns.
i'll buy in few weeks mx red for gaming because i like them a bit more for gaming like mx blues and i don't like the bumpy feeling of the mx browns.
but else i take mx blues all day long. but that's just me. probably if you've a chance to test some mechnical keyboards with different switches in the
electromarket like steelseries 6gv2, 7g, zowie celeritas or razer black widow - do that !
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While I still disagree with The Solutor I feel we're past the point now.
Furuya, if you're set on purchasing a cherry brown switch keyboard I'll give you my experiencse with the Ducky-9008. Howver before I discuss my review I want to highlight that you wanted your brown switch to be tactially sharp. I still believe a buckling spring keyboard would be a great choice as the tactile feedback, both the palpable click and the auditory sound occur right at the electrical actuation point of the switch. Additionally, the spring also rebounds back very fast upon depression, faster than any cherry switch. This, paired with easy double-tapping makes for a great keyboard. I use an IBM Model M variation for my Starcraft II gaming. I'm top 300 in the NA ladders if that matters.
Anyway, onto the Ducky DK-2008. This board was slightly tactile and non-clicky and I found the tactile response to be more palpable than that of the Filco Majistouch brown keyboard.
Back to the general switch. The electrical actuation point occurs right after the palpable feedback from pressing the key. Double tapping is slower when fully bottoming out the key and double tapping can be done at the same speed when not bottoming out. It took me some time to be able to double-tap this way as you have to find the point where the electrical leads connect.
The Ducky DK-2008 outperforms a buckling spring switch when quadruple (or more) tapping. While a double tap can occur at lightning speed on either your hand will fatigue from doing triple taps on a buckling spring. With that being said I can also double/triple tap on a buckling spring keyboard all day and be fine. However, quadruple taps will make my hand fatigued. If quadruple tapping is important to you I would stick with any mx-brown switch.
Build quality was excellent. The keys were made of PCB and had a rough texture. The keys were thick, the keyboard was solidly built, and the spacebar was mounted well.
I hope this helps you out buddy! Hit me up if you have any more questions. I'll be glad to help you out dude.
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While I still disagree with The Solutor
I haven't posted a single opinion in this tread, so what's the point ?
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I haven't posted a single opinion in this tread, so what's the point ?
Well, you have expressed the opinion that RD were better than mechanical switches with regards to double tapping. Besides the obvious trolling, once again, about rubber domes (even though the OP specifically started his post with his first sentence saying he was looking for a new mech board), it's also just an opinion, not science.
What if there's more to double tapping than just raw speed: you may need some immediate feedback to know you actually did double tap and you also may want to know you did not triple tap. How would RD be doing in that regard compared to, say, browns?
It's just an hypothetical question, but in the case sharp feedback is important to instantly be sure the double tap did happen or in the case that it would be important to only "double tap" and not "triple tap" (or at least get feedback as soon as possible if you triple tap so that you can "correct" your mistake) well, then, you've expressed an opinion. One that hella and myself (and many others, but that's exactly what you're constantly looking for by constantly trolling about RD on a forum about good switches) are disagreeing with.
How, damn, I noticed the OP also wrote this latter in the thread: "one user has reported that the Brown switch tactile feedback is uncharacteristically sharper, and I liked that."
I know you have 1000+ posts (a lot being pointless trolling that said) but with regards to SC2 and with OP specifically starting his post with his first sentence stating "I'm looking for a new mechanical keyboard", I think the post made by user RayRay (who has a very low post count) will be much more helpful to him than your trolling.
RayRay said, to summarize: "I'm a 200 APM High-Master Zerg player" and "Screwed around with a few switch types, and I'm really quite fond of Browns. I got myself an oldschool Cheery NKRO Brown keyboard and haven't looked back." and "if you have no idea what switch you might enjoy (coming from a rubber dome keyboard etc) I'd say Browns."
I know it may come as a shock to you that a 130 wpm / 200 APM SC2 players would recommend browns over rubber dome but, well, it's a fact that user RayRay knows more about the issue the OP is concerned about than you do (you don't type that fast nor play SC2 at 200 APM do you The Solutor?).
Now ironically enough had you spent all the time you spent here trolling, insulting, writing logical fallacies, etc. playing SC2, you actually may have been able to help the OP choosing a good keyboard to play SC2.
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Well, you have expressed the opinion that RD were better than mechanical switches with regards to double tapping.
This is not on opinion this is a clear FACT regardless the personal likings.
The only obvious trolling here, is yours. Is not continuously mixing fanboysm and ignorance that an opinable point becomes true.
I couldn't care less if you are a mech taliban or if you don't like what I write. I write (and I will write) about facts when they are available, like in this case, and I post my opinion (no matter if you like it or not) when an opinion is needed and when there isn't a definite answer to a question.
As I did in the last 15 years in any forum that I'm registered and in any website/magazine I wrote for.
So try to learn a bit of respect for the people, (especially when they are more experienced/skilled than you), try to act as an adult w/o insulting the other users just because they don't share your (usually wrong) ideas.
Try to understand that if someone ask for a refreshing drink a cocacola is better than any brand of champagne
Is not that hard.
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Wow. You two are arguing over the best double tap key switch. Please say that out loud, slowly, to yourself ten times. See if it doesn't sound petty.
I guarantee that it is more than the physical properties of the switch. Everyone's hands and fingers are different! It is a preference built around personal experience, physiology, and how those adapt to the physical characteristics of a particular switch. Formula 1 and some motorcycle engines, most (all?) turbine engines, and a few other things, rotate at 200+ rotations per second (in excess of 12,000 RPM if you're doing the math), but you wouldn't put any of it on top of your keyboard to help you play SC2. God help you if you would.
No one should vilify another user for preferring a rubber dome keyboard. My two hand surgeries cause me to never type on one when i have a choice, ever again. I do not walk around calling my co-workers ignorant fools for continuing to use theirs. I am BAFFLED at why that kind of practice seems acceptable to some people here. Co-worker asks me about my loud keyboard, I tell them my story and I show them my operation scars. Sometimes we have fun talking about our common experiences with Vicodin and Oxycodone.
This entire forum is about people having different preferences in a keyboard switch and keyboard layout. Not a single one makes you or I any better than anyone else. I would hope to use the opportunity to find out why you think the RD is best for you and maybe learn something from the interaction. The great thing about Geekhack is that no one (Sorry Ripster, not even you) knows everything about keyboards, we get enriched by the interaction and our collective experience. It's a very "internet" thing.
Since RDs are the most prevalent unfortunately (I say this for ME) rubber domes frequently get a lot of the really advanced functionality that I'd not mind seeing in a Filco or Poker. Bluetooth, for example. I understand wanting some of them out there.
I think this topic has some warrant, albeit WAY outside my area of interest - the best SC2 keyboard?. My kids play StarCraft 2 on an SMK-88 with black cherry switches and they have TONS of fun with it. No one's asked me for "a better keyboard because we keep getting pwned."
I am sick and tired of the trolling, the troll accusations (which are A LOT of the problem), and the arguing over NOTHING. Can you have a solid defensible opinion on what's a good double tap key switch, express it, read about a differing opinion, have fun discussing points and counterpoints, and move on...without name-calling or getting emotional...over a keyboard switch?
Let me respond to your "but he started it..." with this: I don't give a ****.
BTW: there are plenty of times when thirsty me would choose champagne (or ANYTHING with rum in it) over a Coca-Cola.
And now I'm taking my kids to the pool.
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Awesome stuff
Bravo, sir, bravo!
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Wow. You two are arguing over the best double tap key switch.
That was the OP's question, so I assume you don't like both the answer and the question.
Then why post in a thread you don't like ?
It's all about personal preference, you can choose to dress a miniskirt on a marriage party, or eat spaghetti and ketchup or drink champagne after two days spent in the desert, but if someone ask I reply with the more reasonable answer.
My personal preference is for ergo clears and I not even mentioned them in this thread, because the OP asked for the better switch for DT and not about my personal preference, Is not that hard to understand.
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ANOTHER one for the In Praise of Ashort thread!
(although why my name was mentioned since I'm not even IN this thread and I say it's all personal preference what switch you choose (even rubber domes) in the Geekhack Mechanical Keyboard Guide (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=START+HERE+--+The+Geekhack+Mechanical+Keyboard+Guide+-+Includes+Glossary+and+Links) I'll never know).
...even the "Number One Keyboard Expert On the Planet" doesn't know everything. :D
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Lol boys, let's agree to disagree. I was just giving my personal experiences to help the OP with his purchasing decisions. Don't take my advice the wrong way, it's not personal.
Regardless, the original poster hasn't popped his head in here recently so there's no point to further digress from the intended topic until he returns.
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(http://www.deviantart.com/download/152181328/Rule_number_2___Double_Tap_by_jhroberts.jpg)
I can double tap just fine on anything. I do prefer reds, browns, blacks, rubberdomes in that order. Rubberdomes is not as fast for me as I am a light touch, and I would rather not have to smash the key to the bottom.
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While I still disagree with The Solutor I feel we're past the point now.
Furuya, if you're set on purchasing a cherry brown switch keyboard I'll give you my experiencse with the Ducky-9008. Howver before I discuss my review I want to highlight that you wanted your brown switch to be tactially sharp. I still believe a buckling spring keyboard would be a great choice as the tactile feedback, both the palpable click and the auditory sound occur right at the electrical actuation point of the switch. Additionally, the spring also rebounds back very fast upon depression, faster than any cherry switch. This, paired with easy double-tapping makes for a great keyboard. I use an IBM Model M variation for my Starcraft II gaming. I'm top 300 in the NA ladders if that matters.
Anyway, onto the Ducky DK-2008. This board was slightly tactile and non-clicky and I found the tactile response to be more palpable than that of the Filco Majistouch brown keyboard.
Back to the general switch. The electrical actuation point occurs right after the palpable feedback from pressing the key. Double tapping is slower when fully bottoming out the key and double tapping can be done at the same speed when not bottoming out. It took me some time to be able to double-tap this way as you have to find the point where the electrical leads connect.
The Ducky DK-2008 outperforms a buckling spring switch when quadruple (or more) tapping. While a double tap can occur at lightning speed on either your hand will fatigue from doing triple taps on a buckling spring. With that being said I can also double/triple tap on a buckling spring keyboard all day and be fine. However, quadruple taps will make my hand fatigued. If quadruple tapping is important to you I would stick with any mx-brown switch.
Build quality was excellent. The keys were made of PCB and had a rough texture. The keys were thick, the keyboard was solidly built, and the spacebar was mounted well.
I hope this helps you out buddy! Hit me up if you have any more questions. I'll be glad to help you out dude.
Thank you for your reply, hella!
In SC2, do you often find yourself in situations where you need to triple or quadruple tap? The only situation I can't think of are macroing Terran with multiples barracks (doing the same unit), but for me the multiple tap in that situation is not as critical as going to a building or unit throught its numbered hotkey.
What do you mean with "The keys were made of PCB and had a rough texture"? That the keys are not mounted to a metal plate?
I found the actuation force of Buclking Spring too hard (harder than my current keyboard, and I wanted one a bit lighter). So I will stick with Browns. But I'm only saying that from the specs I've read, and I've never tried neither BS and Browns.
If only Ducky had alternative layouts available... but it's only US layout, right?
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What do you mean with "The keys were made of PCB and had a rough texture"?
I think is the "I'm the best typist in the world" version of PBT (Polybutylene Terephthalate) a kind of plastic.
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oh, I didn't notice that there was a 3rd page.
Please keep fighting. The more fighting the more information spills out of it (as long as the subject is kept more or less the target of discussion).
:biggrin1:
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I don't ever triple+ tap in sc2, dude. However many players triple+ tap certain buttons when they have insufficient resources and are trying to build a structure or unit RIGHT when they harvest enough minerals or gas.
With regards to the keys the actual key is made of PCB, a plastic polymer. The keys are attached the say way as all cherry switch keys.
Also, if you're looking for a soft keyboard buckling springs are going to satisfy you. While I don't consider them hard to type on your mileage may vary. Based on your preferences it seems that a cherry switch would better suit you.
I actually think we may need to regress away from you definitively purchasing the brown keys and a better switch may be better for you. Do you know what type of switch you want? Do you want something that's tactile or nontactile, and clicky, or non-clicky?
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PCB (PolyChlorinatedBiphenyl) are a group of oily liquids used chiefly as transformer oil and sometimes found in the ballasts of old fluorescent lights. Some old paints and inks also contained PCB. Like many other chlorinated aromatic compounds (like DDT), PCB is very resistant to weathering and is heat resistant. It can be metabolized in living organisms however, and can be quite toxic...
Keycaps are hopefully not made with this. I think you mean PBT (Polybutylene terephthalate), though majority of keycaps are abs (Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene).
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Definitely a typo ;)
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I don't ever triple+ tap in sc2, dude. However many players triple+ tap certain buttons when they have insufficient resources and are trying to build a structure or unit RIGHT when they harvest enough minerals or gas.
For all races, double taping is pretty important to quickly switch your camera view to keep a constant eye on what needs to be done, shifting back and forth between micro/macro and building things as close to zero as possible. As Zerg, you will find yourself holding keys to spawn from larva, as terran you will find yourself spamming keys to build one unit from each structure type (bad to queue as it pre-allocates resources) and spamming spawns as protoss from warpgate tech.
What's good for all of that? Currently using a Filco brown, and I feel that I've made a good choice.
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I don't ever triple+ tap in sc2, dude. However many players triple+ tap certain buttons when they have insufficient resources and are trying to build a structure or unit RIGHT when they harvest enough minerals or gas.
With regards to the keys the actual key is made of PCB, a plastic polymer. The keys are attached the say way as all cherry switch keys.
Also, if you're looking for a soft keyboard buckling springs are going to satisfy you. While I don't consider them hard to type on your mileage may vary. Based on your preferences it seems that a cherry switch would better suit you.
I actually think we may need to regress away from you definitively purchasing the brown keys and a better switch may be better for you. Do you know what type of switch you want? Do you want something that's tactile or nontactile, and clicky, or non-clicky?
I want tactile, light (less than 60g), non-clicky.
So.......
- Is ZOWIE the only brand with UK layout avaiable?
I would get a Ducky or a Das but unfortunately they're available only with US layout (from stores I've found that ship to Brazil).
Stores that ships to Brazil:
- http://www.zowiegear.dk
- http://linkecomputer.com
- http://www.performance-pcs.com
- http://www.tankguys.com/site-merchandise/ducky-keyboard-mx-overclock-net-edition-brown-abs.html
Please let me know if you know other stores that ships internationally.
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Browns sound like a good fit then buddy. Layout specifications are not my expertise, you'll have to find someone else to help you. Best of luck dude!
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I don't know how to make this post not look like a troll post, but purely from interest and being OCD about facts being facts, I would like to just point out a few things that i don't agree with Solutor's argument for RD being the best for DT.
He first define best as which switch has the simplest (or just have a simple) mechanism to actuate the switch repeatedly as quickly as possible. Not how i would define it, but i see the simplicity in it, and elegance and understandability counts for something, and will go with it and explain why even if it is true RD wouldn't be best.
(As a side note for interest, a more simple one i thought up could be, just how quickly can the switch theoretically actuate repeatedly reliably, ie don't think about the external mechanism needed to actuate it, but just what the switch can do... and i think a capacitive switch would win, since there is no clattering which mech switches have... but i could be wrong, i was a physics major but focused on quant mech, so i think i can understand why i am wrong if someone bother to explain, but i am claiming no expertise in electrical circuits at all)
Using his definition, and his set up, it is much easier to create a machine that can actuate a red/brown/black repeatedly and in quicker succession than quite a few RD, simply because the dome due to the nature of the rubber, does not rebound nearly as quickly as would a spring, since it is in its collapsed state, one could build a RD that flexes harder but one could also insert a stronger spring in the switch, but i would suspect that black would simply beat most RD that exist right now simply because it bounces back faster. I do feel that i can beat most keyboards on the upward rebound if i try (especially crappy RD, i have tried ones where it kinda stick to the bottom if i press really hard, and really messes with DT, so at least for those RD i can speak for fact that they are no good for DT), but i would be swinging my finger back up so fast, i can't come back for a second tap before the key have rebounded sufficiently, that said, i believe we need to incorporate some sort of the mechanism of the human finger in any justification for any switching being best for DT.
I believe that was his strongest argument, the rest feels less justified by firm facts, eg. Red/Brown/Black being more difficult to calibrate. Everything has a learning curve, if we are discussing what is BEST, then learning curve should not be an issue, unless you can show it is not achievable by humans, if people can not bottom out on reds, with no feedback, that means people can train their finger to reach a pretty precise spot and come back up and ride that actuation point pretty well, (i digress but it would have alot less strain on the finger because you are not smashing your finger) i would believe any method relying on feed back from the keys would be too slow anyways or at least slower than someone who have it in their muscle memory.
I am not saying Solutor is wrong in whether RD is best, but i am saying that his proof falls short of proofing that RD is in FACT the best.
I can discuss more about what i feel is best for DT, but their justification are more like my opinion, and so i await Solutor's further enlightenment and see if they assist in turning them to facts, cuz having facts back up my opinions is always good.
TL DR, according to Solutor's "proof", the bottle neck for repeated presses is most likely the upspring of the key, which IMO rubber dome would lose
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I am not saying Solutor is wrong in whether RD is best, but i am saying that his proof falls short of proofing that RD is in FACT the best.
You are nicely dissecting the argument starting from a wrong assumption: the needs to rebound.
There's no need to rebountd.
On A RD, once you actuated the contact firstly you have just to move your finger back by a very very short travel, likely just some tenths of microns, the same happen to reactuate the contact.
And all this happen near a definite reference point represented by the bottom of the key stroke.
The tactile Cherry switches have an hysteresis (larger or smaller depending on the switch taken in account), the linear ones don't have a definite actuation point so, again can't be on par with a RD.
Then, one becomes used to everything and a cherry board cant be considered bad, but an RD is still better
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I can double tap easier on a Cherry Brown than a rubber dome even if the physics say it should be different. I listen to my fingers and they tell me Browns are the best. :)
Theory does nothing for the reality of how our muscle memory actually applies to how we use the keys.
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I don't own any "pure" RB and my only scissor switch board turned out to actually be slower than my finger - I double tap it and it registers only once. The problem with RDs is that they actuate at the bottom, where the dome's force is very weak.
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In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, they are often radically different.
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I see where we differ, i do disagree with your premise that there is no need to rebound. Apologize in advance for stating the obvious, but but as a matter of completeness i present my argument as follows:-
If there is no rebound, you wouldn't even have the few micros of distance to turn off the switch. I think you can agree with that.
Now i know you are saying i am picking at your words, but from your other posts, I understand like me being correct is a matter of utmost importance no matter how stupid/small the difference. I do believe what you are saying is that at such short distance micros as you suggested the force of the rebound matters very little (TBH humans cannot control our movements at that scale, so i am not sure whether that is the length scale we would want to argue in, but as it does not currently affect both our arguments i adopt your premise) there is still distance traveled, and that distance does require force/work (ie spring/flex) to be moved/displaced, you have not raise a point as far as i can see why a shorter length do away with the need of rebound.
Now if i understand most membrane switches correctly (and i am just talking about the sample size of all the logitech and microsoft DR i have cut up for fun when they die) the mechanism is just 3 sheets of thin plastics with the top layer and bottom later containing the matrix/contacts, separated by a sheet with holes in them, which leads me to believe that the rebound in the micron level you suggest is dictated actually by the flex of the sheets! not even the dome! As a person who have done undergraduate level E&M and a few courses on material science, i do believe the difference between the distance the two sheets need to be away from each other for the switch to turn off, and the distance needed for the two metal leads in a mech switch to turn off is of such a small degree that other factors would make it irrelevant (ie spring rebound). I understand that this put outs BS and blues etc. switches out, but if my understanding is correct if you ride the actuation point correctly nothing prevent the same level amplitude of the motion need to trigger a RD to trigger switches such as red and black on and off. And of course even if you are talking in the small distance a spring would have more rebound that the flex of just a plastic sheet.
And yes, that aside, i do "feel" that the fact that the actuation being in the middle of travel assists greatly in being able to DT, despite not being able to formulate a clear logical justification for it. A layman way of putting why i feel that way is because i can DT in the middle of travel by muscle memory alone, I require no feed back from the keys, so basically i am capped by the physical capability of my fingers to go through a precise motion as quickly a possible (go down 2 mm, back up smallest of fraction, and down again) with training it can be very precise and limited by the precision of muscle control only. In the case of a RD i feel i need to always over press to hit the bottom, recover the smallest of margin and then hit the bottom. the last two motion are about the same speed but its the need to have a physical trigger from my finger for the next motion on the first bottoming out that slows it down. I understand that one can argue i can just as well train it into muscle memory to move down 4 mm, up tiniest of margin, down again, no need for feed back, but even with that it just brings RD to equal footing with some switch, with a higher learning curve (at least to me). Preferable don't focus too hard on my second explanation why mech is better for RD, my explanation like i said is by feel, and is by no mean rigorous, i have looked at it and can already identify many upon many places that needs to be patched up before it could even be called a justification for anything, which i have tried and havn't yet done so.
TL DR:
1: Solutor: Rebound must be assumed, without rebound the contacts would not separate. Do not see argument why at short distance the force that is pushing the contacts apart does not make difference.
2:I do "feel" that actuation at middle of travel assist with DT, as i can train muscle memory to DT quickly without need of feed back from keyboard, and speed is caped by precision of muscle control, For RD, the wait for feedback from bottom out slows down DT
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I've absolutely loved my Cherry reds for SC2 gaming. I'm not sure if the Filco board is just superb, or if the switches are ideal. I'm not even sure why I like it so much for gaming! haha
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1: Solutor: Rebound must be assumed, without rebound the contacts would not separate. Do not see argument why at short distance the force that is pushing the contacts apart does not make difference.
I just suggest you to look better to the rd dynamics.
When you type normally you do the full travel until you reach the bottom point, this makes typing, usually, more pleasurable and less fatiguing on a mech key.
But when we go to DT matter you have to take in account that after 4mm of travel just the last few 1/10 of mm matters.
There's absolutely no need to release the key, and there's no need to do 8mm of travel to open and close again the membrane's contact,and any experienced gamer is aware of it.
And I think that trying yourself is way better than reading my poorly written messages
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Neither do you need 8 mm of travel for a red switch is my point, that the 1/10 of mm movement can be done at the actuation point of some mech switch. I just don't see what difference you are relying on that a RD have that mech switch (ie red black) don't have that makes RD better, as stated, the tiny motion needed to repeatedly actuate a RD can be done right at the actuation point of a mech switch to achieve the same result if not better.
i don't know if this is what you are suggesting, but it seems to me that you are giving the scenario where the typer is holding the key down right above the bottom to DT. Would your statement imply that a keyboard with 1/10 mm travel and actuate at the bottom actually be better in DT? Even so i still don't see why the actuation needs to be at the bottom, wouldn't a key with actuation at 1/10 mm travel but still with a full 3.9 mm travel be just as good in DT? I see your point that actuation and release needs to be as close together as posible, but i don't see justification for why it needs to coincides with bottoming out.
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i don't know if this is what you are suggesting, but it seems to me that you are giving the scenario where the typer is holding the key down right above the bottom to DT. Would your statement imply that a keyboard with 1/10 mm travel and actuate at the bottom actually be better in DT?
More or less.
Is not better because at bottom, is better because you have e definite reference, you have basically to control your finger mainly in one direction, while on a red or black you have to figure where the activation point is, and you have to use way more muscles to keep the key in the narrow area around the activation point, which is obviously possible, but at the same time requires a way better control and a way longer training process
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In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, they are often radically different.
In practice, there is no difference between theory and practice.
If there is a difference, then the theory does not match the practice, and needs to be expanded, or (rarely) simplified.
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Tell that to someone that knows the theory of driving stick. Or, you know, anyone in the sciences. Don't forget kids, bumblebees can't fly, and baseballs don't curve.
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In practice, there is no difference between theory and practice.
If there is a difference, then the theory does not match the practice, and needs to be expanded, or (rarely) simplified.
Theory almost never matches practice because practice is usually nearly infinitely complex. So yes, assuming a perfect theory it would match, but no theory is perfect.
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Tell that to someone that knows the theory of driving stick. Or, you know, anyone in the sciences. Don't forget kids, bumblebees can't fly, and baseballs don't curve.
You do realize that theories are made from practical trials? Empirical data.... This is why perfect theories always match practice. Chobopants, my good sir, you are correct, very few theories match reality, this is why we establish "laboratory conditions" and standards like STP, to eliminate some variable. Undoubtedly, adding all these things back into some complex theories would greatly complicate said theories.
theferenc, look at the Ideal Gas Law, it's used often enough, even in University Thermodynamics, and yet it's known to be false, although predictably so. This theory, if/when expanded, may accurately predict the properties of gases.
Also, you should tell THAT to somebody in the sciences yourself, they'll tell you that baseballs do curve, due to the Magnus Effect. :)
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My 2 cents about the practice vs theory.
Theory is an abstraction of the "reality". Thus, practice will comply to theory only under certain conditions (the hypothesis of theory). Reality is too complex to be perfectly theorized.
When we see practice not matching theory, it's merely because we forgot to take into account something and thus we're not applying the correct model/theory.
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More than reasonable definition.
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the plastic membranes of RD are just like the input panel of microwaves, you never have to take your finger off of it to make an input. you can spam the numbers without lift out. The RD is really only there to make the keycap bounceback up.
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well, if it's worth mentioning I've found an 105-key Brown Filco Majestouch NKR (keyboard company). It will cost me more than 200 USD, so if I don't like it I will blow up GH. :target:
BTW, what's the difference between Majestouch and Majestouch-2?
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BTW, what's the difference between Majestouch and Majestouch-2?
Just hot Air, and maybe a ping.
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Just hot Air, and maybe a ping.
what?
what's hot Air? And which one pings more?
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what's hot Air?
I mean almost nothing, just marketing (eg dual sided vetronite PCB that was a novelty in 1970 or so...)
And which one pings more?
AFAIK the v2
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I mean almost nothing, just marketing (eg dual sided vetronite PCB that was a novelty in 1970 or so...)
AFAIK the v2
Any other things besides the dual-layer PCB?
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WHERE is the question.
In Japan i presume :playball:
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Actually there might be benefits/troubles with having a double sided PCB. I de-soldered a tenkeyless Majestouch 2, and it was hell getting the solder sucker to clean out the solder. My guess is that this was due to the through-plated holes. Solder sticking to the wall all the way through the PCB. When I was de-soldering the switches from a full size Majestouch (1) I could easily suck all solder off the connectors and the PCB nearly fell off from the switches mounted in their plate when I had freed them all of their solder. I guess the through-plating also could mean the mechanical bond between the switches and the PCB is stronger/stiffer. Since the solder forms a solid cylinder between the switch connector and the hole wall.