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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Johannes on Wed, 27 July 2011, 23:56:20

Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Wed, 27 July 2011, 23:56:20: Existent?
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: REVENGE on Thu, 28 July 2011, 03:44:26: Quote from: Johannes;388554
Existent?
Realforce?
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 06:45:45: Quote from: Johannes;388554
Existent?

I think mechanicals are made with the technical FF just to share the keycaps already in production for the full sized boards and reduce the build cost

Scissor boards doesn't have those technical constraints so better layouts are used.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Tony on Thu, 28 July 2011, 08:51:04: Each dome or scissor board are cheap because they are mass produced, got fixed layout, and fixed specifications for at least 10 years.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Pylon on Thu, 28 July 2011, 08:51:57: IBM RT3200 (Space Saver II)? Though those are rather expensive.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 08:58:47: Quote from: Tony;388701
Each dome or scissor board are cheap because they are mass produced

They are cheap not just because mass products, but just because are easier to build and to assemble.

Topres are an exception because are easy to produce and to assemble but are sold at premium price.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 11:38:46: Every dome/scissor board I know of is either full size (huge numpad jutting out of it so the mouse is accross the room) or numpad-less with "mini" garbage like a half-size fkey row and home/end/etc shoved into a cramped space or even requiring fn. Do I really need to buy another 200+ dollar keyboard (if you include shipping and red tape) just to get a tolerable layout?

Btw, even after a year of use I still don't like Cherry Browns any more than above-average quality rubber domes.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 28 July 2011, 13:31:30: The only other keyboard I know of that is tenkeyless and not MX or Topre, is the Filco Zero.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 13:33:14: Personally I fint the tenkeyless the most unusefull layout out there.

Numpad is sacrified to the standard sized middle cluster, and the keyboard is still relatively large.

I vastly prefer something like the thinkpad keyboard

(http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/31p8950_thinkpad_ultranav_keyboard.jpg)

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-45868.html

Slightly larger than a tenkeyless, one of the best keyboard available looking at the tactile feedback, with easy to reach home/end/.. cluster, and with embedded trackpoint and trackpad

Quote
Btw, even after a year of use I still don't like Cherry Browns any more than above-average quality rubber domes.

I understood that browns wrere insipid switches before buying a brown keyboard, I modded it to ergo clears in no time.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Pylon on Thu, 28 July 2011, 14:00:46: There's an HP tenkeyless out there, though if it's anything like the usual KB-0316 stuff it's not going to be good.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 15:20:43: Quote from: The Solutor;388842
I vastly prefer something like the thinkpad keyboard

Show Image
(http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/31p8950_thinkpad_ultranav_keyboard.jpg)

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-45868.html

Slightly larger than a tenkeyless, one of the best keyboard available looking at the tactile feedback, with easy to reach home/end/.. cluster, and with embedded trackpoint and trackpad

I understood that browns wrere insipid switches before buying a brown keyboard, I modded it to ergo clears in no time.
Meh, half-size Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert/Del/fkeys, hard-to-hit Esc, stepped Caps Lock (which I of course use as ctrl) and a useless numpad. Tenkeyless smokes it.
Really, the horrible Esc and half-size fkeys would be intolerable for a StarCraft player. Whoever decided half-size fkey row was a good idea shouldn't be allowed near a computer.
I don't like the huge front lip or touchpad either, and even the trackpoint would be annoying for morphing those Hydras.

REVENGE: Sure there is Realforce, but I'm looking for something I can get to Norway for (much) less than 300-400 dollars.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 28 July 2011, 15:25:57: The Realforce 87U with the virtual numpad sure beats this crappy layout.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 28 July 2011, 15:30:15: What is Majestouch layout? :happy:
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 15:46:41: one of which is the Majestouch Tenkeyless layout, which is identical to the Realforce 87U except it has no (useless) virtual numpad.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 15:55:43: Wow, even Filco have adopted the lousy half-size fkey row.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 16:12:53: Quote from: Johannes;388909
Meh, half-size Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert/Del/fkeys

Exactly as they should as they are rarely used, at leas less frequently than the indispensable numerated.
Quote

hard-to-hit Esc

Exactly in the same place of any standard keyboard, maybe closer to the alpha block

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stepped Caps Lock (which I of course use as ctrl) and a useless numpad.

Stepped caps lock is a nice feature, a lot of people can't live w/o it. An there isn't nothing obvious in remapping it, it is just where it should, and where it was 40 years ago.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vaY0qMsEcfI/TCUzP40D0gI/AAAAAAAAAG0/bpi5-M_Tcr8/s1600/P1010268.JPG)

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Tenkeyless smokes it.

Do you mean that fake compact layout, meant to mimic a good compact keyboard, w/o investing a cent in a couple of keycaps molds ? :pound:
Quote

Whoever decided half-size fkey row was a good idea shouldn't be allowed near a computer.

Cherry boards doesn't have the half size f keys just because cherry doesn't made half sizes switches, you're still swapping technical constraints with advantages.

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I don't like the huge front lip

Is called wrist rest is meant to have a good, relaxing posture.

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or touchpad either

Can be disabled if you are a trackpoint or mouse integralist
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 16:19:52: Stepped caps lock only makes the key harder to use for its correct function (ctrl).
There is no advantage to half-size fkey row (unless saving 0.5cm of desk space is crucial), only disadvantage.
The numpad is useless if you know how to use the numrow and you're not an accountant.
The Esc is harder to hit because it's flat and too close to F1. It's certainly not "closer to the alpha block" either.
The huge front lip makes the board harder to carry, and I can use my own wrist rest which is probably superior.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 16:37:27: Quote from: Johannes;388948
Stepped caps lock only makes the key harder to use for its correct function (ctrl).

Even if you are odd enough to use it as CTRL, the stepped key make it easier to identify exacly as the nubs on F and J keys

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There is no advantage to half-size fkey row (unless saving 0.5cm of desk space is crucial), only disadvantage.

Again, they are closer to the alpha block so are easier to reach, an they are shaped differently for easier identification.

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The numpad is useless if you know how to use the numrow and you're not an accountant.

Thanks I've already noticed that there is a num row on the main block, but I prefer an handy keyboard than a trendy one, and I not mention some European layouts where the number on pc keyboards are in second function like on the typewriters.

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The Esc is harder to hit because it's flat and too close to F1

You asked for a scissor switch keyboard, they are all flat, esc is easy to spot because F1 is shaped differently.

And, sorry but I think that few companies have more know how on keyboard ergonomics more than IBM, Olivetti and few others.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 28 July 2011, 16:51:26: Quote from: The Solutor;388947
Exactly as they should as they are rarely used, at leas less frequently than the indispensable numerated.

That depends entirely on what you do with your computer, and how you use it. I personally use the editing block all the time, but never go near the numpad.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 16:54:33: Quote from: ch_123;388956
That depends entirely on what you do with your computer, and how you use it.

Using calc to time per month make the numpad totally worth :happy:
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 28 July 2011, 17:07:14: Quote from: Pylon;388702
IBM RT3200 (Space Saver II)? Though those are rather expensive.
I got one of these recently - good choice.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 17:09:23: The Solutor, your arguments are still cow****.

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Even if you are odd enough to use it as CTRL, the stepped key make it easier to identify exacly as the nubs on F and J keys
The nubs on F and J let you find the correct position for your hands, and once you have that there is no need to "identify" caps lock, you know where it is.
Quote
Again, they are closer to the alpha block so are easier to reach, an they are shaped differently for easier identification.
Having them closer is nice, but that has nothing to do with whether they are half-size. I don't need differently "shaped" f-keys for "identification", I know where they are, I only need proper size so I can hit them reliably in a fraction of a second.
Quote
Thanks I've already noticed that there is a num row on the main block, but I prefer an handy keyboard than a trendy one, and I not mention some European layouts where the number on pc keyboards are in second function like on the typewriters
It's nonsense that tenkeyless is a matter of trendiness, it's superior because the mouse is closer.
Quote
esc is easy to spot because F1 is shaped differently
I don't "spot" esc, I aim for it blindly in a fraction of a second, and it's easier to tell if I hit the correct key when there is a bit of space around it. That's why the esc on the Thinkpad keyboard seems horrible. The gap between the numrow and the frow on the Majestouch is too large, but tolerable.
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Using calc to time per month make the numpad totally worth
Cow****.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 28 July 2011, 17:15:35: The current Thinkpad keyboards have the F keys squashed over, and the Esc extended downwards.

The layout on my Thinkpad is decent enough, but the Model M SSK style layout, like the one on the Filco Tenkeyless is much nicer.

That, or the HHKB :P
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 17:29:37: Quote from: Johannes;388969
The Solutor, your arguments are still cow****.

Yes are better yours who want to spend 200$ just to grab a trendy tenpointless keyboard.

Quote
and once you have that there is no need to "identify" caps lock, you know where it is.

Assuming you are a secretary who spend 8 h per day digiting text, or a developer who dont use an IDE, this is correct, but 99%of the people not spend entire days with the hands in the home position.

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It's nonsense that tenkeyless is a matter of trendiness, it's superior because the mouse is closer.

From this POV any compact keyboard is better, from a POKER to a bl 82 or whatever....

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I don't "spot" esc, I aim for it blindly in a fraction of a second, and it's easier to tell if I hit the correct key when there is a bit of space around it.

So you don't need the stepped capslock because you are a super touch typist but you need the space arounf the ESC key, very coherent arguments...:happy:

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That's why the esc on the Thinkpad keyboard seems horrible.

Thinkpads keyboard are widely recognized as one of the better keyboard available.

The only founded critichism is due to the swapped CTRL and FN, but on recent thinkpads they are swappable.

Quote
Cow****.

Arguing with you was a pleasure :pound:
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: sordna on Thu, 28 July 2011, 17:37:39: Guys, just cut it out. Different folks have different needs, so it's good to have different styles to choose from.
Besides, all the keyboards you mentioned have a major flaw: the silly zig-zag staggered layout from the late 1800's typewriters. However, unless you go to Kinesis, Maltron, or similar, stop arguing about little details :-)
For the record, I like tenkeyless a lot AND I like virtual numpads. Nice to have in the rare instances you want them, and nice for mousekeys too (move the pointer, do clicks, etc, without taking your hands off the keyboard). But if you are looking for a big improvement in a keybard, you need to go to an ergonomic, non-staggered layout. Perhaps the TrulyErgonomic will help move some folks to that direction. Zig-zag staggering must die. QWERTY as well, for that matter.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:10:42: I think the full sized keyboards are better when you use the mouse with the left hand.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:13:57: sordna: Meh, you can't play StarCraft on a Kinesis or Maltron. Also, the adaption time is long and it completely alienates you from standard keyboards (which are not going away, stop dreaming)
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: sordna on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:14:09: Quote from: RiGS;388999
I think the full sized keyboards are better when you use the mouse with the left hand.

Yes, I know some right-handed folks who had issues with the right hand and moved the mouse to the left. It's an excellent seutp! There's also left-handed keyboards, with the arrows/numpad on the left, but I'm not sure if any decent left-handed mechanical ones exist.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:22:33: I like to switch the mouse between the left and right hand time to time in order to keep my wrists healthy and strong.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: sordna on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:33:01: Quote from: Johannes;389001
sordna: Meh, you can't play StarCraft on a Kinesis or Maltron. Also, the adaption time is long and it completely alienates you from standard keyboards (which are not going away, stop dreaming)

Adaptation on the Kinesis took me about a week. Dvorak took over a month though :-) Also, I practice qwerty on a Poker and an IBM mini, doing 70+ WPM there (on Kinesis/Dvorak I do 90-100 WPM). I also use laptops. So I am not alienated in any way, but can really tell the difference as to what layout is superior.
Yeah, I don't see QWERTY going away in my lifetime, but I am hoping that the zig-zag staggering might. If only Apple produces a matrix-layout keyboard it may start the tide! Currently, even the iPad has the stagger :-(
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: shrap on Thu, 28 July 2011, 18:56:53: Quote from: Johannes;389001
... it completely alienates you from standard keyboards (which are not going away, stop dreaming)

Seems like an easy solution: buy more keyboards!

No reason to stick with a 100+ year old layout just because everyone else is too lazy to keep up...
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Pylon on Thu, 28 July 2011, 21:24:56: Quote from: sordna;389002
There's also left-handed keyboards, with the arrows/numpad on the left, but I'm not sure if any decent left-handed mechanical ones exist.

Notestation has a Cherry MX one. (http://www.notestation.com/lefthandedkeyboard.htm)
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Pylon on Thu, 28 July 2011, 21:28:36: About the tenkeyless HP I mentioned earlier, it's called the HP Modular Keyboard (detachable numpad) and it's KU-0412. Out of production it seems. I can almost guarantee you that key feel is going to suck though judging by other HP Chicony keyboards.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 22:02:46: This.

Really really nice layout, too bad it cost an arm and a leg

(http://www.fentek-ind.com/lergoflexLH.jpg)

http://fentek-ind.com/Comfort-keyboard.htm#ergomagic
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: sordna on Thu, 28 July 2011, 22:11:47: I have one... the variant with the elaborate adjustable base. I placed the numpad in the middle.
I tried to use it as a vertical keyboard but the staggering totally kills that idea. I know cause I placed 2 Kinesis countoured vertically, and I was able to type at my regular WPM without errors. Staggering is so horribly bad, WHY DO PEOPLE PUT UP WITH IT ?

Anyway, my keyboard is this, I'll take offers. It's the special "extra-soft touch" and it's programmable.

http://fentek-ind.com/Comfort-keyboard.htm#comfort

(http://fentek-ind.com/images/KBCOMUSBB.jpg)
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 22:21:07: Quote from: sordna;389132
I have one... the variant with the elaborate adjustable base. I placed the numpad in the middle.

If I had one probably I would use the keyboard in the middle, with some keys remapped as arrows and the numpad block un the right of the mouse, or on the keyboard's left depending on the activity

Quote
Anyway, my keyboard is this, I'll take offers. It's the special "extra-soft touch" and it's programmable.

I'll keep in mind, maybe later, atm I've spent too much in mechanicals to think to a costly RD...
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: intealls on Fri, 29 July 2011, 00:58:58: Decent tenkeyless dome: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?10997-Fujitsu-original-HHKB-and-Sun-keyboards&p=217281&viewfull=1#post217281 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?10997-Fujitsu-original-HHKB-and-Sun-keyboards&p=217281&viewfull=1#post217281)
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Fri, 29 July 2011, 03:56:47: intealls, nice! I'm gonna buy a few of these if I can find.
Thanks.

Got any hints on where I can find it?
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 29 July 2011, 04:23:31: Quote from: intealls;389205
Decent tenkeyless dome: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?10997-Fujitsu-original-HHKB-and-Sun-keyboards&p=217281&viewfull=1#post217281 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?10997-Fujitsu-original-HHKB-and-Sun-keyboards&p=217281&viewfull=1#post217281)

Meh...

I have a pair of SUNs and i put them in the group of the worst RD keyboards available...
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 29 July 2011, 05:13:02: I got my Fujitsu FKB-8738 from a seller on Swedish auction site Tradera. She still sells them, but for 75 SEK now, not for 50 as when I got mine.
I have also got a Sun Type 5c, which was also made by Fujitsu. The plunger mechanism is the same and most of the key caps are interchangeable, but the key caps on the Sun Type 5c have a different profile and are of much higher quality. The keys on the FKB-8738 rattle a bit more.
The feel is very mushy. Therefore, I modified mine (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:13567) to get better tactility, but there is still no comparison to a good Cherry board IMO.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Fri, 29 July 2011, 05:32:13: Browns have near-zero tactility and pretty lousy feel for fast typing (imo of course) so by "good Cherry board" I assume you mean Blues, which are way too noisy for me to even consider. I'd rather go with most domes.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 29 July 2011, 05:47:20: Quote from: Johannes;389276
Browns have near-zero tactility and pretty lousy feel for fast typing (imo of course) so by "good Cherry board" I assume you mean Blues, which are way too noisy for me to even consider. I'd rather go with most domes.

You tried clears, right? They are heavier than browns but don't click.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Johannes on Fri, 29 July 2011, 05:51:16: Nope, haven't tried them, I don't know of any proper tenkeyless with Clears.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: N8N on Fri, 29 July 2011, 06:55:37: Quote from: Johannes;389283
Nope, haven't tried them, I don't know of any proper tenkeyless with Clears.

Gotta roll your own, but IMHO it's worth it. Quiet and still feel good. I haven't tried blacks, but from what I hear the clears are kind of like blacks with a bump if that makes any sense. I type kind of hard and don't bottom out on clears because I can stop myself, and they are office friendly, unlike my model m. Whereas I can't type on RD because you *have* to bottom out and I think that that is what was making my hands hurt after a long day of work.

Just get a cheap POS board w/ clears to see if you like the switches...
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 29 July 2011, 07:33:57: BTW, Johannes, you have got PM!
... and where in the world are you located? If you are in the same city, you could try my Clear board for a while.
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 29 July 2011, 07:39:35: I'm sure the OP don't like it but the Sidewinder X6 is a RD tenkeyless

(http://www.vgnetwork.it/images/Prodotti_Microsoft_Natale_2008/microsoft-sidewinder-x6-gaming-keyboard.jpg)
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: Pylon on Fri, 29 July 2011, 10:57:40: According to another Geekhack member there's an IBM Space Saver II on Ebay.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20415-IBM-SpaceSaver-II-Compact-Trackpoint-Keyboard-starting-bid-29.99-8.00-shipping

It might go for good money though since it has Trackpoint. It's an NMB rubber dome - quality varies from mediocre (RT235BTW) to very good (RT7D5JTW).
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: intealls on Fri, 29 July 2011, 17:19:49: Quote from: intealls;389205
Decent tenkeyless dome: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?10997-Fujitsu-original-HHKB-and-Sun-keyboards&p=217281&viewfull=1#post217281 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?10997-Fujitsu-original-HHKB-and-Sun-keyboards&p=217281&viewfull=1#post217281)

Sure, they're on sale at tradera.se for 75 SEK + 55 SEK shipping (do a search for styrkula, and they'll pop right up). The lady selling them is real nice, but if she won't ship internationally (if you're not in Sweden) I could sell you one of mine for the same price + shipping (got a few stacked up).
Title: Decent dome/scissor board with Majestouch Tenkeyless layout
Post by: intealls on Fri, 29 July 2011, 17:33:29: Quote from: The Solutor;389250
Meh...

I have a pair of SUNs and i put them in the group of the worst RD keyboards available...

As far as domes go, I think they're pretty decent. The build quality is far beyond the normal dome (at least the Type 5), they are a bit mushy though, like Findecanor already stated.