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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:14:28

Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:14:28
I have a Linear R and a Ninja Brown.

Both have slightly different stem sizes. Very minor differences.

The stems on the Brown switches are very slightly larger than the Red switches.

The keycaps that come on the Linear R fit very tight on the Ninja Brown switches and the keycaps that come with the Ninja Brown fit very loose on the Linear r's red switches.

When buying key caps, how do you specify the right size?
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Arcanius on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:20:46
You don't. All stems SHOULD be the same size. But any material can expand, contract, etc, and there is a margin of error for all these things.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:28:25
All the red switches on my Linear R are consistently smaller than the stems on my Ninja Brown switches.

Their respective key caps are also sized accordingly.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Arcanius on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:36:34
Alright, but remember that the mould for reds is different than the mould for browns. A small difference in the moulds could cause this, and you may have gotten lucky with the keycaps. There have been reports of slightly wobbly keycaps on almost all brands of keyboards, Filco not being an exception.
Ninja keycaps are also slightly different since they don't have the coating on them, which may also be represented by a different mold that is coincidentally smaller. Cherry MX datasheet lists specific measurements for switches, which is a bit disturbing, since they don't seem to be identical.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:52:04
Interesting, they may have different moulds. It's disturbing to hear that other brands including Filco suffer from this. Filco isn't cheap.

It appears that the red and brown switches are sized slightly differently as are their keycaps.

My question is now, when buying keycaps such as the KBC PBT, are these the same size as the Red or the Brown keycaps.

The keycaps from the Ninja brown switches fit very loosely on the Linear R red switches.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:54:44
Mine aren't.

Different factory perhaps.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 09:58:48
Ok.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: noodles256 on Tue, 02 August 2011, 10:39:17
ok. case closed

Excellent work holmes
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Tue, 02 August 2011, 10:54:24
I had problems with some keycaps that I put on my first Poker Red staying on the board. It definitely seemed like the Red stems were slightly smaller than the brows/blues/blacks that I've had. Maybe it has something to do with the color/dye they use making it contract slightly (just a random guess).
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Tue, 02 August 2011, 11:28:08
Yeah, but M&M color is applied topically. The coloring of the plastic used in the Cherry stems gets actually mixed in with the plastic throughout. That's why I was thinking it might have an effect on the cooling process or something like that.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Spinifex on Tue, 02 August 2011, 14:42:18
@ CTN

Do you notice much of a difference when typing on the REDS as opposed to the BROWNS.   I'm looking for a Red TenKeyless but my wife thinks I'm nuts.  I don't want to have to explain to her.  

Can you explain the difference in Switches please.  It is just easier that way.

Seriously, what do you prefer to type on?  Are you at touch typist?
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: sordna on Tue, 02 August 2011, 15:54:04
The red switches on my Kinesis are definitely not smaller or thinner than my older Kinesis with browns. In fact I had a hard time removing keycaps to get the o-rings in. Hower on all my keyboards with cherry switches (I have browns, reds, blues), repeated removal of keycaps does loosen things a bit and it becomes easier over time.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 02 August 2011, 18:38:23
The red stems are definitely smaller than the brown stems but only ever so slightly. I'd be surprised if there's is 0.01mm in it, just enough to make a difference to a loose keycap and a tight fitting one. My guess is that they are made with slightly different moulds and/or different factory.

Spinifex,

When I first got the browns I was over the moon, it felt great. I used to have a bucking spring keyboard in my teens. The tactile bump felt amazing. It felt almost as good as that but not as firm and as tactile. The typing experience was very precise but it was easy to bottom out.

With the reds, although it shared the same spring, the linear nature made it feel like a totally different keyboard altogether. It felt very natural like the keyboard was an extension of my own hand and fingers so typing on it was effortless. It was better than the brows for both typing and gaming. After using the reds for a while, I found the tactile bumb annoying and it tend to get in the way of otherwise a great typing experience.

Although both the brown and red share the same springs, the reds feels significantly lighter to activate the switch but feels heavier when bottoming out. I guess the tactile bump stores some energy due to you applying more force to overcome it so when you pass that point it gets transferred to the spring making it easier on the brown switch.

There's not much in it between the two though, It comes down to personal preference. I'm a touch typist so the bump doesn't really do much for me as I know how far I pressed.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Tue, 02 August 2011, 20:17:09
Honestly, these days I'm preferring blacks to reds. But then that's probably just because I have mongoloid hands
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: noodles256 on Wed, 03 August 2011, 00:18:11
different size?

i have two different colors. so many problems with mech boards, going back to my g15
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 03 August 2011, 00:22:28
Quote from: noodles256;392063
different size?

i have two different colors. so many problems with mech boards, going back to my g15

Very slightly different, just enough to cause loose key caps.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2011, 01:25:07
I have taken keycaps off for the very first time on my daily driver Kinesis with browns so I could put on the doubleshots. I had to stop several times and regroup, the keycaps were on so tight! On about 15, it was scary-switch-might-pull-apart-tight. To push on the doubleshots was a bit uncomfortable as well.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Spinifex on Wed, 03 August 2011, 06:06:19
That is a great answer CTN.  I think I'm going to try some cherry reds now.  Got the browns; love them, but I want to test what other switches are like.

Ta.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 03 August 2011, 07:12:12
Quote from: input nirvana;392112
I have taken keycaps off for the very first time on my daily driver Kinesis with browns so I could put on the doubleshots. I had to stop several times and regroup, the keycaps were on so tight! On about 15, it was scary-switch-might-pull-apart-tight. To push on the doubleshots was a bit uncomfortable as well.

Keycaps on my Browns were very tight too.

Quote from: Spinifex;392169
That is a great answer CTN.  I think I'm going to try some cherry reds now.  Got the browns; love them, but I want to test what other switches are like.

Ta.

I think you will like the Reds.

Filco Reds are pretty hard to get in Australia. Leopolds are easier from PCCG and cheaper but I don't like their stabalizers.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2011, 10:19:08
FROM CHERRY CORP:


Hi,
 
We do not sell springs and would not give out information about our supplier. In Asia there are a lot of companies around offering accessory sets for MX keyswitches.
 
A possible source in USA might be http://elitekeyboards.com/  . They may know where you can get such accessories in USA.
 
 
 
Kind regards/Mit freundlichem Gruss,
Ed Ferraton
Cherry Senior CID Technical Services
ZF Electronics Corporation
11200 88th Ave Pleasant Prairie WI 53158 USA
Phone/Telefon +1 262-942-6393, Fax/Telefax +1 262-942-6566
ed.ferraton@zf.com (ed.ferraton@zf.com)
www.cherrycorp.com (http://www.cherrycorp.com)

 

[/HR]
Sent: Wed 8/3/2011 12:59 AM
To: Ellis Vickie PPR ZFE
Subject: MX Keyswitches

Hello,

 

I'm inquiring about the specifications of the various springs used in the MX line of keyswitches. I need to locate either a manufacturer/supplier/distributor or seller of the springs. My goal is to change the springs within the keyswitch to achieve a pressure force that accommodates my needs. Is this a question you can provide an answer to?

 

1- A source to buy the springs.

2- Spring specifications so I can find a source that sells them.

 

Please contact me with any questions or comments.

 

Sincerely,

Input Nirvana-Keyboard Kutter Krew


I didn't actually sign the email this way, but it seemed funny to add that now
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2011, 10:21:43
:)
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 03 August 2011, 17:41:31
As I said the problem is not finding the correct springs the problem is the cost for limited quantities.

Look at this, I haven't reverted the units in a readable form, but is sufficient to understand the cost of a single spring.

.92$ aka 95$ per keyboard. And when a cherry board cost 40€...

http://www.centuryspring.com/Store/item_detail.php?StockNumber=10075
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2011, 19:10:44
Nuts! I thought they would $1.50 USD for a package of 20-25 springs retail. If that is the spec, I guess a little more searching is in order. :(
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 03 August 2011, 19:17:52
Quote from: input nirvana;392520
Nuts! I thought they would $1.50 USD for a package of 20-25 springs retail.


Is what I thought too...

I think the only way is to contact a spring maker and ask for a reasonable quantity of [custom] springs, like 5000 or 10000 pieces and then resell them as a group buy.

I'm sure, this way, the price will end to something like 5 cents per spring or less.

Here in italy most of the spring maker accepts custom orders, but due to the larger user base an US based maker should be better.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2011, 19:47:25
As for me, right now I'll just do what's needed to get a couple samples of each switch. I'll make things more complicated by creating new switches sometime when I become bored, or have a good idea.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2011, 20:13:54
oh god damn

wrong ****ing thread

seriously why I'm having problems the last 6 months

not paying attention

no one called me out or shot me in the head to end my misery?

****

I have been spending way too much time here the last couple months

decrease is needed
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 03 August 2011, 22:47:54
Quote from: ripster;392553
At least we've established the Cherry MX stem size doesn't vary.

Not yet.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Wed, 03 August 2011, 23:55:06
Quote from: Ctn;392665
Not yet.

I concur. All we've established with any certainty is that some people on this forum (myself included) have noticed that the same keycap fits more loosely on their red switches than the other switches.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 03 August 2011, 23:57:53
There are tolerances when dealing with manufacturing. Not every plastic mold is identical down to the micron. And not every batch of plastic is 100% the same consistency. Things vary.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 04 August 2011, 00:12:59
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;392692
There are tolerances when dealing with manufacturing. Not every plastic mold is identical down to the micron. And not every batch of plastic is 100% the same consistency. Things vary.

Just like my erections when girls think it's ok to to fart in front of you just because you've had sex...
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Thu, 04 August 2011, 09:52:50
Quote from: ripster;392713
Micron is pretty small.

I get 4.01mm.

What do you get?

What do you get for the individual arms of the cross?
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Thu, 04 August 2011, 23:02:09
I'm going to get a new battery for my digital caliper.

Will post results in the next day or so.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Thu, 04 August 2011, 23:49:21
Hurray for signatures.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Fri, 05 August 2011, 09:23:34
I just measured a few keys of my red vs my brown.

Not much difference between the Vertical and Horizontal parts of the stem 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red)

Red and Brown measure the same except for the thickness of the Vertical part of the stem.

Brown is 1.1mm and Red is 1.07mm.

Red stems are slightly smaller than the Brown stems.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Fri, 05 August 2011, 09:24:33
Quote from: Ctn;393493
I just measured a few keys of my red vs my brown.

Not much difference between the Vertical and Horizontal parts of the stem 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red)

Red and Brown measure the same except for the thickness of the Vertical part of the stem.

Brown is 1.1mm and Red is 1.07mm.

Red stems are slightly smaller than the Brown stems.

Well, that clears things up.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Arcanius on Fri, 05 August 2011, 09:46:43
Quote from: daerid;393494
Well, that clears things up.

No it doesn't, we have one set of data. We don't know if molds differ or not, we'd need a lot more people to get measurements to be able to confirm anything.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Fri, 05 August 2011, 09:58:10
Quote from: ripster;393505
I think we should do a poll.

That's backed up with data, not just pure voting.

Could you measure the width of the Vertical part of the stem on your Reds and Browns/Blacks/Blues ?
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Fri, 05 August 2011, 10:00:16
Good way to achieve nothing.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Arcanius on Fri, 05 August 2011, 10:07:28
Ripste's still sour from all the pinginess, must have damaged his ears.
If anybody else has brown/blue/black or red switches and a micrometer, could you try to measure some of your switches so we can get some more data?
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 05 August 2011, 10:43:18
Ripster you sure did blow that issue out of proportion.

Ping!
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 05 August 2011, 11:22:23
There was no army of one on that deal. Everyone that fought an opposing battle of the ping did so with a lot of opinion, not all the facts, and lost sight of the goal. Just like real world politics.

Ping that, ping-heads.

I raise your ping. PING!!
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Fri, 05 August 2011, 12:15:15
Quote from: ripster;393547
I'm just glad it turned out to not be a Filco issue.

However I truly doubt the Filco Red Cherrys have smaller stems than the other stems.

Have you eliminated the keys as being the variable?

That would require data, which you don't seem to be all that keen on at the moment ;)
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Fri, 05 August 2011, 13:45:47
Really...

Egotistical much?
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Fri, 05 August 2011, 14:39:44
I believe the answer to your jest would be "Testtical" :-o
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 05 August 2011, 14:40:54
Remember, I got a negative number with the online IQ test.

Ask that racist mensa guy from a month ago. He should have some great meatloaf recipes as well.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Fri, 05 August 2011, 14:40:59
But then it wouldn't really relate to "Quizzical"
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 05 August 2011, 21:45:30
Quote from: ripster;393681
Why would anyone think Cherry Corp would change the size of their stems?  Sounds like one of these Krazy Ass Korean KBDmania theories.

Although it's odd the Cherry MX datasheet has an old picture of their stems.


Likely the different dye has an effect when the liquid plastic solidify
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 05 August 2011, 22:04:23
Quote from: ripster;393984
I would have thought the chemists would have figured out plastic dyes that don't do that in the last 50 years.

It this an Italian theory?


FYI Italy is world leader on molds, and here in the neighbor I have a lot of clients that do modeling from tiny components, to car's bumpers, to UFO's (http://arteky.wordpress.com/mariko-mori/) (the aliens you see are built in Italy by a client of my ex coworker and the electronic inside is entirely my work, the UFO shown in NYC, is built by the same company and most of the electronics inside is made by my ex coworker with my contribution).

So... Yes Italy is a good place to ask about molds.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Sat, 06 August 2011, 05:22:59
Quote from: Ctn;393493
I just measured a few keys of my red vs my brown.

Not much difference between the Vertical and Horizontal parts of the stem 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red)

Red and Brown measure the same except for the thickness of the Vertical part of the stem.

Brown is 1.1mm and Red is 1.07mm.

Red stems are slightly smaller than the Brown stems.

Any more stem measurements of Reds vs Browns/Blacks/Blues on the width of the Vertical part of the stem.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: noodles256 on Tue, 09 August 2011, 12:40:27
Quote from: The Solutor;393992
FYI Italy is world leader on molds, and here in the neighbor I have a lot of clients that do modeling from tiny components, to car's bumpers, to UFO's (http://arteky.wordpress.com/mariko-mori/) (the aliens you see are built in Italy by a client of my ex coworker and the electronic inside is entirely my work, the UFO shown in NYC, is built by the same company and most of the electronics inside is made by my ex coworker with my contribution).

So... Yes Italy is a good place to ask about molds.

Italians also molded themselves a good stereotype here in the Mericas.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 09 August 2011, 18:42:54
Need measurements from people with accurate calipers.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 09 August 2011, 19:46:46
It's too large a difference. 1.0mm vs 1.07mm and 1.1mm.

Further more. 1.07mm and 1.1mm were taken with the same Digital Caliper, so there's 0.03mm difference between the keys on 1 keyboard (Red) and the keys on another keyboard (Brown).
Like you said "Damn those German Cherry Corp engineers are good.". All the Red switches were consistently 1.07mm and all the Brown switches were consistently 1.1mm

Do you have a Cherry Corp datasheet stating the width of the vertical stem?

My red switch does not look like the red switch in your picture.

My red switch looks like this minus the diode.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/12214dy.jpg)

One thing I've noticed is the Vertical Stem part is not a sharp 90deg angle like in the datasheet but a tapered edge.

My Red switch is similar to
(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/mx_mntop.gif)

as opposed to
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23671&d=1312911456)


Lets wait for more people to respond with measurements.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: daerid on Tue, 09 August 2011, 23:08:25
If I had a micrometer, I'd definitely measure.

All I know is that the same keycap when fitted to multiple stems on my blue, black, and brown boards fits snugly. However, the very same keycap when fitted to either the Filco Linear R, or Poker w/ Reds fits very loosely.

That's all the science I need to know that, at least in my particular batch of reds, the stems are slightly smaller than the rest.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Tue, 09 August 2011, 23:54:38
Quote from: daerid;396249
If I had a micrometer, I'd definitely measure.

All I know is that the same keycap when fitted to multiple stems on my blue, black, and brown boards fits snugly. However, the very same keycap when fitted to either the Filco Linear R, or Poker w/ Reds fits very loosely.

That's all the science I need to know that, at least in my particular batch of reds, the stems are slightly smaller than the rest.

Same.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 17 August 2011, 19:10:02
Quote from: ripster;400526
Maybe.  Not Signature Plastics.

I recently added this to the Cherry MX Stem after arguing in the "My Red Cherries have smaller stems" thread.   I like Socratic debate as a way of furthering Keyboard Science.  Some people at Geekhack hate that style.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=24010&d=1313168044)

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20745-Up-side-down-cherry-switch&p=400526&viewfull=1#post400526

The diagram shows 0.159" for the vertical and horizontal stem height which is 4.0386 (4U and 6U mount)
Ripster measured 4.0mm. I measured 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red) which fits with the diagram's measurements.

That diagram shows 0.047" for the vertical stem width which is ~1.1938 mm (4U, 6U, 0L mount). Ripster measured 1.0mm.
That diagram shows 0.044" for the vertical stem width which is ~1.1176 mm (0M mount). Ripster measured 1.0mm.

My measurements were Brown at 1.1mm and Red at 1.07mm. These are closer to the 0M mount than the 4U, 6U, 0L mount.

Sigh still not solved.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 17 August 2011, 20:56:51
Quote from: ripster;400724
Well of course the keys will have slightly bigger dimensions to take into account texture of the plastic and some play.

0.1938mm bigger by your measurements to "take into account texture of the plastic and some play" ? . Seems a bit loose.

What we need is a similar diagram for the Cherry MX stems.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 17 August 2011, 21:28:59
Quote from: ripster;400737
Have you tried the SAME key on both color stems.    First eliminate Keys as the variable.  

Keyboard Science 101.

First thing I did. HAVE you?

Filco Brown keycaps fit normal on Cherry Brown stems.
Filco Red keycaps fit normal on Cherry Red stems.

Filco Brown keycaps fit loosely on Cherry Red stems.
Filco Red keycaps fit snugly on Cherry Brown stems.

This is when I took measurements with a digital caliper, and it confirmed my suspicions that the Red Stem is slightly smaller than the Brown stem wrt the vertical stem width.

Similar findings as daerid, see http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20569-Different-Cherry-MX-stem-size&p=396249&viewfull=1#post396249
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 17 August 2011, 21:33:19
Quote from: ripster;400746
I would check that key thing but I'm kinda busy with that whole ping thing.  These KBCs sure fit fine on my Red Cherry though.

Have you tried the SAME key on both color stems. First eliminate the variables.

Keyboard Science 101.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: Ctn on Wed, 17 August 2011, 21:38:06
I thought you being #1 Keyboard Expert, you'd know.

Is the ping thing really that bad?

Both my Filco's ping a little but it doesn't bother me.

I can only hear it if I have my ears right next to the keyboard and bash the key quickly.

Who types like that anyway.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 18 August 2011, 07:48:08
This is what is known as "swinging poll results in your favor." Ripster learns from the best, like his hero Obama.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 18 August 2011, 08:41:02
Quote from: ripster;400737
Have you tried the SAME key on both color stems.    First eliminate Keys as the variable.  

Keyboard Science 101.


A scientist should learn the difference between a constant and a variable.

If the same keycap fits differently on different stems the keycap is the constant not the variable.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: FourOhFour on Thu, 18 August 2011, 09:45:06
Quote from: The Solutor;400914
A scientist should learn the difference between a constant and a variable.

If the same keycap fits differently on different stems the keycap is the constant not the variable.
Which is how you remove it as a variable, by testing the same cap. Until someone tests it with the same cap (assuming that hasn't already happened), you have two variables and you're gonna get nowhere except a good 'ol Internet Argument.
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 18 August 2011, 10:47:03
Quote from: FourOhFour;400939
Which is how you remove it as a variable, by testing the same cap. Until someone tests it with the same cap (assuming that hasn't already happened), you have two variables and you're gonna get nowhere except a good 'ol Internet Argument.


I wrote "If the same keycap..." so there's no need to add anything else.

It's pretty obvious (even for Ripster I hope) that fitting tewo different keycaps on two different switches, lead to nowhere...
Title: Different Cherry MX stem size
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 18 August 2011, 10:48:06
Quote from: ripster;400942
Using The Solutor as a Tool I have determined Italian Keyboard Science is vastly different than American Keyboard Science.


You forgot to add "luckily" :party: