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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Trueepower on Wed, 17 August 2011, 20:58:10

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Trueepower on Wed, 17 August 2011, 20:58:10

For those of you who have been waiting for an all 45g Topre Realforce 87 board it's available at EK in white.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 17 August 2011, 22:39:07

Nice.  $345 though.

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se0900

Silent models avail too (variable force)
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se070s

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: F u r u y á on Wed, 17 August 2011, 23:23:00

Holly cow

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 17 August 2011, 23:34:20

I just bought the variable 87u last week, then you pull this out?  You should have listed them at the same time.
BAD FORM.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: whizz on Thu, 18 August 2011, 03:33:11

Great, thanks for noticing. All-45 silent would be great, but I think that it is not planned at all (right now) so I have to buy weighted silent and mod it... And also convince myself that need 345 USD keyboard lol.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 18 August 2011, 20:20:51

If only it had a PBT spacebar... It would be the perfect keyboard

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Thu, 18 August 2011, 20:54:08

Quote from: ironman31;401296

If only it had a PBT spacebar... It would be the perfect keyboard

Jesus you people are picky :)

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Thu, 18 August 2011, 21:20:04

Quote from: ironman31;401296

If only it had a PBT spacebar... It would be the perfect keyboard

No keyboard with the silly staggered layout can be perfect. Far from it.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: didjamatic on Thu, 18 August 2011, 21:29:20

Silly? Staggered?  Do you mean your fingers?  They're both staggered and variable.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: mmmty on Thu, 18 August 2011, 21:34:39

Must go take a look...

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Thu, 18 August 2011, 23:04:05

Quote from: didjamatic;401341

Silly? Staggered?  Do you mean your fingers?  They're both staggered and variable.

They're variable (that's why the Kinesis Advantage has middle finger column sitting deeper than the rest) but they're not staggered. The zig-zag staggered layout I'm talking about was devised to fit the typewriter pushrods. We don't need it anymore.

This is not natural movement for the hands or fingers, and no matter how fancy you make the switches and charge $300-400 or more, if you don't deal with the fundamental flaw of traditional keyboards, you have a mediocre keyboard. Even if the label on it says Realforce.

(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/Staggered_ergonomic_keyboards.jpg)

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: didjamatic on Thu, 18 August 2011, 23:05:12

Oh, gotcha.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: godofdeath on Thu, 18 August 2011, 23:32:28

where are the 104s

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 22 August 2011, 00:54:01

Quote from: sordna;401401

Show Image

(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/Staggered_ergonomic_keyboards.jpg)

Sordna, please stop posting this crap, it hurts my eyes! Plus, it's 2011, we know better than to make fingers go backwards, don't we?

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Mon, 22 August 2011, 00:59:25

Haha, sorry, but I'm trying to open people's eyes about the relic called "staggered layout" that haunts 99% of keyboards from 1880 all the way to 2011. I feel so strongly about this, that I'm thinking to even buy a Truly Ergonomic, whenever it comes out (perhaps might be available by Christmas, who knows?)

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Trueepower on Mon, 22 August 2011, 01:42:47

Quote from: sordna;403004

Haha, sorry, but I'm trying to open people's eyes about the relic called "staggered layout" that haunts 99% of keyboards from 1880 all the way to 2011. I feel so strongly about this, that I'm thinking to even buy a Truly Ergonomic, whenever it comes out (perhaps might be available by Christmas, who knows?)

 
While your at it you might want to take a look at the shoes you are wearing, most likely they are better ones out there for your feet. But, you probably aren't thinking about that are you? Ignoring your feet over your hands is not a good idea either.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Mon, 22 August 2011, 02:17:31

Adjusting between vertical columns and staggered layout is much easier that you think, try it sometime, you might be surprised!

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 23 August 2011, 17:47:42

FedEx guy still isn't here.... -__-

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: F u r u y á on Tue, 23 August 2011, 18:26:14

omg already sold out.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 23 August 2011, 20:31:54

WAIT.... Has no one else noticed the different texture of this new batch of keys? And the fact that the spacebar is now sharp....?

The texture btw is much smoother than the original. The texture of the WASD keys that come with it is of the original batch.

Key texture of the 91UBY is by far superior.

ALSO:

Font is different, much bigger.

I guess I'll be keeping the 91UBY...

PPS

The 'D' and 'X' is not completely dyed through. Looks like the printer was running out of ink. It seems Realforce has gone down on the quality control a bit.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 23 August 2011, 20:51:00

Quote from: ironman31;404188

WAIT.... Has no one else noticed the different texture of this new batch of keys? And the fact that the spacebar is now sharp....?

The texture btw is much smoother than the original. The texture of the WASD keys that come with it is of the original batch.

Key texture of the 91UBY is by far superior.

ALSO:

Font is different, much bigger.

I guess I'll be keeping the 91UBY...

I did. Those red keys from Verkkokauppa that I sold to litster had much better texture than these.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19468&d=1308791492)

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 23 August 2011, 21:06:11

If I ever decide to open it up, I might put the small space bar from the UBY onto this 87U. Only THEN might it be the perfect keyboard, for that's the only thing getting in the way of keyfeel.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: litster on Tue, 23 August 2011, 21:55:18

Close up of the 3 different Topre keycaps I have.  The red one is from RiGS.  Yellow one is from the Korean Leopold group buy.  The black one is from my new 87U from Elitekeyboards 2 weeks ago.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=24967&d=1314154432)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=24968&d=1314154433)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=24966&d=1314154430)

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 23 August 2011, 21:57:53

Nice close-ups.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: litster on Tue, 23 August 2011, 21:58:46

I still can't tell which one is smoother or rougher from the close up :-),  I guess it has to be by feel...

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 23 August 2011, 22:01:27

From visual inspection between the 91UBY and the new 87U, the 87U's keys have much more shine. The don't feel bad, but feel how I would expect the others' keys to feel after a couple of years of use.

Another thing to note is that the F and J keys are not shiny like the rest. Like they purposely gave them more texture...

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Jago on Wed, 24 August 2011, 01:44:19

Quote from: RiGS;404195

I did. Those red keys from Verkkokauppa that I sold to litster had much better texture than these.

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19468&d=1308791492)

Heh, I actually like the looks of these over the verkkokauppa ones, by far. Where/who sells the ones in this image? Are these "big" WASD keys or are they of same profile as the stock ones?

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 24 August 2011, 07:19:44

the profiles are all the same, the thickness of the font is whats different

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: RiGS on Wed, 24 August 2011, 07:53:20

Quote from: Jago;404274

Heh, I actually like the looks of these over the verkkokauppa ones, by far. Where/who sells the ones in this image? Are these "big" WASD keys or are they of same profile as the stock ones?

These are the red keycaps from Verkkokauppa.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Jago on Wed, 24 August 2011, 11:59:16

Quote from: RiGS;404335

These are the red keycaps from Verkkokauppa.

Oh seriously? Are their own images way way overbright then, cause this is what they look like on Verkkokauppa's website:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24986[/ATTACH]

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: guilleguillaume on Wed, 24 August 2011, 12:24:46

Quote from: Jago;404402

Oh seriously? Are their own images way way overbright then, cause this is what they look like on Verkkokauppa's website:

(Attachment) 24986[/ATTACH]

The pics are Photoshopped in Verkkokkaupa.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 24 August 2011, 22:10:52

one day I'll sand down the front edge of the spacebar to make this my perfect keyboard. Or I'll end up ruining a 360 dollar investment...

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 24 August 2011, 22:16:58

I wonder if these will ever get back in stock? Or if they will carry black ones?

Or if EK will ever tell us what is going on ever?

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 24 August 2011, 22:19:11

yes, maybe, and no

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: chongyixiong on Fri, 26 August 2011, 11:58:16

And I saved up just thinking I would slowly take my time to click on the Buy button and submit my details on a nice, Saturday afternoon with my favourite cuppa.

But no, EK decided that they should only sell 1 and call it the limited edition. Damn it and now I'm never going to get the all 45g! I DEMAND A RESTOCK!

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Fri, 26 August 2011, 12:05:22

Quote from: chongyixiong;405508

And I saved up just thinking I would slowly take my time to click on the Buy button and submit my details on a nice, Saturday afternoon with my favourite cuppa.

But no, EK decided that they should only sell 1 and call it the limited edition. Damn it and now I'm never going to get the all 45g! I DEMAND A RESTOCK!

It doesn't say LIMITED, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 26 August 2011, 18:34:20

Did it say limited when they were in stock though?

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: RiGS on Fri, 26 August 2011, 18:45:05

Nope.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: chongyixiong on Fri, 26 August 2011, 22:07:01

Quote from: keyboardlover;405678

Did it say limited when they were in stock though?

Quote from: RiGS;405685

Nope.

What I saw. Click (http://prntscr.com/2sp9y)

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Fri, 26 August 2011, 22:22:25

Daaaamn, out of stock already? Glad I grabbed one on day one. I'm digging it so far.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Fri, 26 August 2011, 22:34:39

Quote from: chongyixiong;405774

What I saw. Click (http://prntscr.com/2sp9y)

I think they call all 87U 'boards Limited Edition. EK still might be able to get more from the Leopold stock though.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 27 August 2011, 08:40:28

If you've tried both a variable-force Realforce AND an all-45g, please vote in my poll here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?21419-Realforce-all-45g-vs.-Variable).

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Sat, 27 August 2011, 11:42:28

Could those of you who have tried the variable force and like it for typing explain why keys like the Shift, Control, Backspace and backslash are not at 35g like the pinky-finger columns of the keyboard?

When I had a 35g keyboard, I really appreciated these hard to reach keys being so soft, why does the realforce reduce the force on the Q column, but increases it again on the tab/shift/control column?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25125[/ATTACH]

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 27 August 2011, 11:44:36

Despite the stronger pinky keys, the all-45g Realforce is winning the battle against variable (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?21419-Realforce-all-45g-vs.-Variable&p=406001).

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: litster on Sat, 27 August 2011, 11:53:38

Quote from: sordna;406003

Could those of you who have tried the variable force and like it for typing explain why keys like the Shift, Control, Backspace and backslash are not at 35g like the pinky-finger columns of the keyboard?

Just my opinion...  when touch-typing, you hands stay at the same position, so when you type on the 35g columns, you mostly just use your pinkies' strength.  When you need to press Tab, Shifts, Controls, etc, you hands move out of your touch-type position and you would apply more strength to press these keys than just your pinkies' strength.  Making those keys at 35g would be too light.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 27 August 2011, 12:07:35

Quote from: litster;406008

Just my opinion...  when touch-typing, you hands stay at the same position, so when you type on the 35g columns, you mostly just use your pinkies' strength.  When you need to press Tab, Shifts, Controls, etc, you hands move out of your touch-type position and you would apply more strength to press these keys than just your pinkies' strength.  Making those keys at 35g would be too light.

Ill second this opinion

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Sat, 27 August 2011, 12:26:21

Hmm, thank you all for your thoughts. I'm ok with Tab, Enter, Ctrl, etc at 45g, but I still think at least the Shift keys should be at 35g since they are integral to typing, and in my experience with red and brown cherries I find 45g Shifts tiring enough to the pinkies that I often use a foot switch to shift.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: hella on Tue, 30 August 2011, 01:25:02

Quote from: sordna;401401

They're variable (that's why the Kinesis Advantage has middle finger column sitting deeper than the rest) but they're not staggered. The zig-zag staggered layout I'm talking about was devised to fit the typewriter pushrods. We don't need it anymore.

This is not natural movement for the hands or fingers, and no matter how fancy you make the switches and charge $300-400 or more, if you don't deal with the fundamental flaw of traditional keyboards, you have a mediocre keyboard. Even if the label on it says Realforce.

Show Image

(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/Staggered_ergonomic_keyboards.jpg)

I know the internet, and GeekHack especially are havens for argumentative people.  Usually I keep my thoughts to myself but I've done a lot of research on desk and keyboard ergonomics during my undergraduate studies.

As a RN with a Bachelor's of Science in Kinesiology I have to say I can't agree with this.  The staggered keyboard favors the medial angles of your index fingers.  A straight keyboard would actually cause the shoulders to anatomically protract.

The biggest ergonomic factor is how far apart your hands are and the angle your keyboard is split at.  If your keyboard is angled (studies show 5-12 degrees yields less hand fatigue) your ring finger and pinky finger will be aligned in a position that yields less force and stress on your digital muscles.  I'll find some articles if you guys are really interested.

Edit: Also the trulyergonomic picture is seriously flawed.  Anyone can test this by placing their hands on a regular keyboard and can see that they don't position their hands as shown in the picture.  While the trulyergonomic keyboard favors proper body positioning more than regular keyboards their product is no more advantageous (layout wise) than using a Microsoft keyboard.

Switch-wise, the trulyergonomic keyboard would have an advantage over average ergonomic keyboards if it were to have tactile switches.  PM me if you want an explanation on this.. it's kinda lengthy.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 30 August 2011, 04:02:27

Either staggering whichever direction is equally good/bad (unlikely) or there is one way that is better than the other (more likely). The body is symmetric - keyboards should be symmetric. After that observation there are of course numerous design choices left.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: hella on Tue, 30 August 2011, 04:13:36

That's a huge oversimplification of what should occur.  By angling your keyboard 12 degrees you are turning a staggered keyboard into straight alignment.  

Combined with the angle of your forearm your wrist will always be straight.    I angle my forearms about 20 degrees apart (or 70 degrees in relation to my torso) with a split keyboard.  With a straight keyboard my forearms angle about 45 degrees from my chest.

By having straight keys, and no angling you're distally rotating your wrist in an unnatural position.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 30 August 2011, 04:25:50

I didn't claim anything more than that a keyboard should be symmetric. And that follows from very basic assumptions and pure logic. The amount of stagger (or whatever other shape the layout is) plays no role in my statement. If a certain layout is "the best" for your left hand, the mirrored layout is going to be as good ("the best") for your right hand. Feel free to point out the flaw in that logic.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: hella on Tue, 30 August 2011, 05:53:04

It's still vastly oversimplified.  Angling the keyboard changes your hand's positioning.  I really could write a book about this topic given the amount of research I've done, but the bottom line is staggering keys with angling do give you better positioning to reduce forces on your fingers and tendons in comparison to a straight layout with, or without angling.  

You'll need pictures to understand everything buddy.  If you're really interested I'd be glad to take them dude.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: hella on Tue, 30 August 2011, 05:56:59

With that being said, the only situation where straight aligned keys is comparable to staggered keys is when the straight keys are spread far apart (about 10 inches, YMMV based on your shoulder width).

Boards like the Kinesis Advantage demonstrate this well.  This layout and a split keyboard approximately 4-5 inches apart with a 6-12 degree angle of separation are two great ergonomical positions.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 30 August 2011, 05:59:53

I keep hitting the R and U with my middle finger instead of my index finger.
Pressing those keys with the index finger seems counterintuitive for me, especially in situations where H is followed by U(human, humour).
Also using my index finger for hitting those keys force my wrist into an ulnar-deviated position which leads to wrist pain.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 30 August 2011, 06:46:06

@hella, you are simply not listening to what I am saying. I stand by my statement that keyboards should be symmetric, whatever staggering or not they have.

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: sordna on Tue, 30 August 2011, 10:38:38

@hella, I understand what you're saying by angling a standard keyboard to simulate straight columns, but the left side would be further away from you than the right side. It's really suboptimal.

You are right that distancing the hands like the Kinesis does is good. However, you can keep the hands close together, as long as the design provides an increased angle of the 2 halves. The truly ergonomic is an example, although the angle on it is not enough.

Now here is a keyboard with *symmetric* staggering, the uTron. Symmetric is definitely better and more natural, as PrinsValium is correctly saying:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25328[/ATTACH]

Title: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
Post by: hella on Tue, 30 August 2011, 13:35:48

Thanks for the clarification.  Symmetrical staggering would reduce hand fatigue :)